The Sub 3 Support Thread

rooneyjm · 22-06-2018 4:26pm

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|6N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist[/TABLE

Found this a 100 pages back. My times have improved, but enough?
5k 18.40 2018
5m 31.34 2017
10k 39.20 2016
10m 1.08.17 2016
HM 1.27.37 2017
Marathon 3.10.17 2017

rooneyjm · 24-06-2018 11:28pm

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0

Total..........262............264..

Week 6 of 18, back on track. 6 miles easy Monday evening, speed session (4 x 1200) Tuesday morning before work. Pace was a little off, maybe a bit of holiday hang over. Doing it Tuesday morning gives plenty of rest before the Tempo Thursday evening (7 miles MP). Held the pace ( 6.48 ave), didn’t try anything too adventurous.
6 Friday, 11 Saturday, 8 Sunday

AuldManKing · 26-06-2018 10:40pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

The thing the bothers me about Hansons is not the cumulative fatigue but the capped 16m and LRs only every other week.

The 16m is a misnomer - I have a hansons plan that goes upto 80 per week that has multiple 20m long runs.

They advocate that the long run is 25% of weekly average - they hold it hard and fast.
If you increase your mileage, you can increase the long run.

I'm also quite sure that your body doesn't work in %, but rather in how it feels - if every 2 weeks you run a bit longer (lets say 30% of weekly vol) and it feels good - then thats ok too. Use the plan as a guide.

Itziger · 26-06-2018 10:55pm

I agree with the 16 mile ruling. I haven't got the book mind but I have seen articles where they say it's a % thingy. (Yes, I'm a bit under the influence right now)
Me, I'm rethinking the Hanson's plan not because of the LR but because of the Tuesday/Thursday sessions. I've found I need at least two easy days between efforts like that so I doubt I'd be up to such sessions............ Thing is, I do need a plan though. The 'making it up as you go along' idea is not ideal if you're not super strict on yourself. Over and out, for now.

Murph_D · 27-06-2018 12:33am

AuldManKing wrote: »

The 16m is a misnomer - I have a hansons plan that goes upto 80 per week that has multiple 20m long runs.

They advocate that the long run is 25% of weekly average - they hold it hard and fast.
If you increase your mileage, you can increase the long run.

I'm also quite sure that your body doesn't work in %, but rather in how it feels - if every 2 weeks you run a bit longer (lets say 30% of weekly vol) and it feels good - then thats ok too. Use the plan as a guide.

Bespoke? The book certainly doesn’t go to 20.

Edit: this.

shotgunmcos · 27-06-2018 1:34pm

AuldManKing wrote: »

The 16m is a misnomer - I have a hansons plan that goes upto 80 per week that has multiple 20m long runs etc...
.

How frequently do you do your long runs? How do you find the plan as a guide overall? Do you take Wednesdays (or a midweek) day off? How do you approach your MP? All in a tempo run or some in the long runs?

I've read over the book twice now. I get it. % rather than distance cap. And just de-emphasizing the LR.

I plan to try out the Hansons approach for a period to get a feel for cumulative fatigue.

rooneyjm · 27-06-2018 5:42pm

Listen to the podcast linked a few pages back. The guy from Hanson Method explains the approach well.

The book says If you really want to add mileage add it to warm ups or cool downs or a few easy miles on the rest day( Wed) but not to add mileage to the 16. If you add 4 miles to the long run but the following week suffers as a result ie cutting the speed or tempo short the you are no longer doing the Hanson Plan

I wouldn’t discard the plan based on the Tues/ Thurs sessions. I’ve tried doing the speed before work on Tuesday and the tempo Thursday evening and it seems to work (36hrs rest) I don’t think moving the tempo to to Friday matters anyway once you are consistent.

shotgunmcos · 27-06-2018 9:43pm

rooneyjm wrote: »

Listen to the podcast linked a few pages back. The guy from Hanson Method explains the approach well.

The book says If you really want to add mileage add it to warm ups or cool downs or a few easy miles on the rest day( Wed) but not to add mileage to the 16. If you add 4 miles to the long run but the following week suffers as a result ie cutting the speed or tempo short the you are no longer doing the Hanson Plan

I wouldn’t discard the plan based on the Tues/ Thurs sessions. I’ve tried doing the speed before work on Tuesday and the tempo Thursday evening and it seems to work (36hrs rest) I don’t think moving the tempo to to Friday matters anyway once you are consistent.

Are you following the advanced plan by the book? I see you are on week 7 and soon moving to the strength portion. How is the plan going? Are you purely running focused or doing other stuff (swim, bike, core etc..)?

I listened to the podcast. It talks about
1. Sticking to a system. If you bespoke with other systems its not the same system so failure can hardly be blamed on the method
2. Recovering if you fall off the program or start to overreach (non functional)

It goes through a few other bits but does not tackle the 16 mile run outside the context of 40-50mile weeks.

What if you start the program already consistently running 50-60 miles a week and doing 16 mile LRs, are you supposed to dial that LR back to 8m for 2 weeks, spread the excess into easy miles or either side of SOS, and not hit 16m again until week 11? Its not just the 16m its that there are only 3 of them in the program (for someone needing to build to 50m a week)

The key thing about the method is to arrive at cumulative fatigue (thin line to functional overreaching) 8-10 weeks into the program so the few weeks (and long runs) before the sharp taper is suitably stressed.

rooneyjm · 27-06-2018 10:36pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Are you following the advanced plan by the book? I see you are on week 7 and soon moving to the strength portion. How is the plan going? Are you purely running focused or doing other stuff (swim, bike, core etc..)?

I listened to the podcast. It talks about
1. Sticking to a system. If you bespoke with other systems its not the same system so failure can hardly be blamed on the method
2. Recovering if you fall off the program or start to overreach (non functional)

It goes through a few other bits but does not tackle the 16 mile run outside the context of 40-50mile weeks.

What if you start the program already consistently running 50-60 miles a week and doing 16 mile LRs, are you supposed to dial that LR back to 8m for 2 weeks, spread the excess into easy miles or either side of SOS, and not hit 16m again until week 11? Its not just the 16m its that there are only 3 of them in the program (for someone needing to build to 50m a week)

The key thing about the method is to arrive at cumulative fatigue (thin line to functional overreaching) 8-10 weeks into the program so the few weeks (and long runs) before the sharp taper is suitably stressed.

Not 100% by the book. Missed the speed on Tuesday so did it this morning instead. Few easy miles tomorrow and the 7 mile tempo Friday. Did the plan once before and it worked despite leaving 200k of easy running over the 18 weeks. I had a better lead into this one and am on track total mileage wise.

Not much supplementary training at the moment, bit of core work and a few press up after some of my runs. Did Tri from 2012 but had to knock it on the head this year with kids and what not.

You could always contact them through their FB group, see what they say, be interesting to hear what they think the limit of the plan in the book is time wise.

Diablo Verde · 02-07-2018 1:18pm

Time for me to finally have a proper crack at this. Last marathon was in Valencia last year and I had a hard time from about 30kms in. Still managed a PB of 3:06:16 but suffered all the way home. Heading back to Valencia in December. Other PBs are:

5k - 18:11 (2018)
10k - 38:39 (2014)
Half - 1:24:27 (2018)

10k is soft and I’ll be hoping to improve on that in a few weeks. Going to follow the Hanson plan, after using P&D for my last three efforts.

rooneyjm · 02-07-2018 11:36pm

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0
....7............54.............54.0

Total.........316............318..

Week 7 of 18. 6 miles easy Monday evening, speed session Tuesday morning before work, watch died during first interval, did the rest by feel. Thursday evening 7 miles easy. 7 mile tempo Friday evening plus 2 warm up and 2 cool down. 14 Saturday, 8 Sunday.

Tough going Saturday in the heat and only 16 hours after the tempo. More of a trail run around the Phoenix Park hiding from the sun.

thomas anderson. · 09-07-2018 3:59pm

Great podcast here from Gary

https://theinspirationalrunner.podbean.com/e/podcast-17-the-coaches-corner-gary-ohanlon-irish-national-champion-21852-marathon-age-43/

squinn2912 · 14-07-2018 10:24pm

Haven’t posted in a while but thought I’d let everybody know I’m back on the horse. I took some of your good advice and got talking to some coaches for a bit of programme guidance. So this is week 1 of 16 to Dublin Marathon 2018. I did 54 miles with most of it at easy pace. Warm up and cool down are longer and there’s a 6 mile tempo and min on min off session there too. Finding the miles tough but the pace is surprisingly light. It’s only one week in so no shouting about smashing anything just yet

kerrylad1 · 15-07-2018 9:05pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Haven’t posted in a while but thought I’d let everybody know I’m back on the horse. I took some of your good advice and got talking to some coaches for a bit of programme guidance. So this is week 1 of 16 to Dublin Marathon 2018. I did 54 miles with most of it at easy pace. Warm up and cool down are longer and there’s a 6 mile tempo and min on min off session there too. Finding the miles tough but the pace is surprisingly light. It’s only one week in so no shouting about smashing anything just yet

Started to up my game myself this week for Dublin.Did my longest run since Limerick yesterday morning,16 miles at 8:10,and it was a bit of a wake up call.Good to see you back posting.What is the target for Dublin?

OOnegative · 15-07-2018 9:13pm

kerrylad1 wrote: »

Started to up my game myself this week for Dublin.Did my longest run since Limerick yesterday morning,16 miles at 8:10,and it was a bit of a wake up call.Good to see you back posting.What is the target for Dublin?

16 miles at 8.10 is great going in current weather conditions in fairness J, not to be dismissed.

squinn2912 · 15-07-2018 9:14pm

Thanks lad good to be discussing again. My wake up call has been the 8 milers every easy day. I’m not used to spending as much time on my feet! More warm ups as well. I’ll get through my first block before I worry much about my target. I’ve discussed pessimistic, realistic and optimistic possibilities but I’m more bothered about living up to the training. If I can do that then hopefully the race will go ok. How about yourself?

squinn2912 · 15-07-2018 9:15pm

OOnegative wrote: »

kerrylad1 wrote: »

Started to up my game myself this week for Dublin.Did my longest run since Limerick yesterday morning,16 miles at 8:10,and it was a bit of a wake up call.Good to see you back posting.What is the target for Dublin?

16 miles at 8.10 is great going in current weather conditions in fairness J, not to be dismissed.

I second that I struggled with 12 in the heat yesterday though I’d had a few drinks on Friday ðŸ€«

OOnegative · 15-07-2018 9:22pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Thanks lad good to be discussing again. My wake up call has been the 8 milers every easy day. I’m not used to spending as much time on my feet! More warm ups as well. I’ll get through my first block before I worry much about my target. I’ve discussed pessimistic, realistic and optimistic possibilities but I’m more bothered about living up to the training. If I can do that then hopefully the race will go ok. How about yourself?

I’m through the first 6 weeks of my plan for Köln on the 7th of October, the humidity is killing me here in Holland but it’s no easier for ye guys at home. Sub 3 is out at current fitness levels due to weather conditions being so similar here to Köln. Any tune up races squinn?

kerrylad1 · 15-07-2018 9:26pm

OOnegative wrote: »

16 miles at 8.10 is great going in current weather conditions in fairness J, not to be dismissed.

Was at 6 am,so home before it got too warm.

rooneyjm · 15-07-2018 9:29pm

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0
....7............54.............54.0
....8............49.............55.0
....9....... 57.............59.0

Total.........422............432..

Weeks 8&9 of 18. Type a big long winded update then the server died. Anyway all session hit over the last few weeks

OOnegative · 15-07-2018 9:32pm

kerrylad1 wrote: »

Was at 6 am,so home before it got too warm.

Stop bragging!!

kerrylad1 · 15-07-2018 9:37pm

OOnegative wrote: »

Stop bragging!!

Ha.It was actually 5:59am

squinn2912 · 15-07-2018 9:48pm

There’s a 10’miler next week but I had that ruled out by the coach! Doing rock n roll in Dublin August 12th so I’ll hope to be in pb shape for that. You?

OOnegative · 15-07-2018 10:21pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

There’s a 10’miler next week but I had that ruled out by the coach! Doing rock n roll in Dublin August 12th so I’ll hope to be in pb shape for that. You?

Mullingar 10 mile in few weeks, not expecting much to be honest but i’ll plow on and do the best I can.

squinn2912 · 15-07-2018 10:26pm

I always thought that a race was worth a week’s training. Coach told me no. Can’t taper for them so be prepared to race badly! I’ll want at least 1 tune up though after messing up derry

Itziger · 16-07-2018 6:57am

rooneyjm wrote: »

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0
....7............54.............54.0
....8............49.............55.0
....9....... 57.............59.0

Total.........422............432..

Weeks 8&9 of 18. Type a big long winded update then the server died. Anyway all session hit over the last few weeks

How are you finding the Tuesday/Thursday/Sunday sessions spread? Do you take Wed off as I believe it suggests? I must admit I'd be looking to do a short recovery jog on Wed.

rooneyjm · 16-07-2018 11:34pm

How are you finding the Tuesday/Thursday/Sunday sessions spread? Do you take Wed off as I believe it suggests? I must admit I'd be looking to do a short recovery jog on Wed.[/quote]

Ok I suppose, with the warm weather lately I’ve been moving the speed to first thing Wednesday morning(6.30), then 6/7 easy miles Thursday tempo Friday, easyish Saturday, long Sunday. As long as I get 1 easy day or rest between the workouts I seem to be ok.

I ve found the Tempo (MP) tough if I’ve not left enough recovery from the speed session or ran on the rest day, Wednesday, so I think they put the rest day in the right place. When the tempo has been tough I’ve got them done but my HR is in the 170’s which is not sustainable. Last week I did the tempo at MP +5 sec and my heart rate was much more stable, settled in the 160’s after 4 miles and stayed there. The transition to the long run after the tempo is much easier.

Started to pay more attention to my weekend run paces. Was doing them at 8.00-8.10 but have upped that to 7.30-7.40 after a few easy miles.

squinn2912 · 17-07-2018 8:55am

Anyone well read on heart rate? Just started using Garmin connect and strava and I’m looking over the zones after a tempo run. Where should I be aiming?

adrian522 · 17-07-2018 12:39pm

The first thing you need to do is figure out your Max Heart rate. Once you have this done you can use it for pacing your runs but until you do that you are at nothing. There are a few methods for this but essentially you need to do a real world test and not rely on a formula.

If you follow a P&D style plan the heart rate zones are something like this:

Pace|% of Max|% of HRR
Recovery|0-76|0-70
General Aerobic|70-81|62-75
Long Run|74-84|65-78
MP|79-88|73-84
Tempo/LT|82-91|77-88
V02Max/Intervals|93-95|91-94

HRR = Heart Rate Reserve which is your Max Heart Rate - Your Resting Heart Rate.

squinn2912 · 17-07-2018 4:43pm

THat makes sense I’ve read it in the book I’m sure. How do I work out max HR?

The Sub 3 Support Thread

Comments