Accepting a low salary to start your career

GarIT · 27-06-2018 03:38PM

awec wrote: »

If these guys are top 0.1% of graduates and they are having a tough time getting a job in 2018 then this top 0.1% label seems somewhat inaccurate.

I have been involved in graduate hiring in recent years. If you are good you will walk into a job. Recruiters are irrelevant and if anyone can't get past an HR interview then there's a bit of an issue there. Too easy to blame the process.

Another issue is what I have highlighted in your post. If you are any good you will walk into a job. A job, but not necessarily a good job. I've gotten a good few job offers but they all involve some element of customer service, are mainly testing based or something else similarly undesirable. Out of my 5 best friends at college, one is working on a state of the art machine learning project, one is working for SkyBet in a reasonably good job, one is in Irish life doing what looks like an incredibly ****ty graduate program, one is a junior IT consultant in Accenture which to me is less than desirable and one is unemployed as am I. Everyone in our group got decent 2:1s or better and that's what we ended up with.

What I'm looking for is a role that is mostly development, obviously code needs to be tested, meetings are needed occasionally to discuss the work being done and sometimes higher level support from the devs are needed but I won't take a role where I'm testing somebody else code, helping users that forgot their password or not spending 5+ hours of most 8 hour days writing or testing my own code. I'm averaging 2-3 companies contacting me per week asking me to interview for roles that are primarily customer service or testing related but no dev jobs yet after 6 months of looking.

I don't think it's too demanding, I'm just looking for a job the is primarily a dev job, hopefully with possibility of progression but I'd almost take anything at this stage if I get to write code. I't not like I did bad in college either, I've a good first in Software engineering in a BSc. from an Irish University. I'm currently doing a masters at night in Big Data and I've 9 months experience as a C# developer, developing a real time information system for a reputable FinTech company. Yet I'm struggling to get a decent graduate job.

I forgot to add I also have a years experience as a lecturers assistant in Software Design Process , computer architecture, and operating systems and have 8 years experience in Tech support. And also to add I'm mostly only looking for backend jobs, as that's what I have experience in so it's limiting me a little too but there's no point in me going for jobs that want, PHP, Ruby and Javascript when I've never used those.

srsly78 · 27-06-2018 03:41PM

I would love to hire someone to help with Fortran, but none of you hipsters are interested

Maths/Physics grads are better suited than CompSci tbh. Failing that I would take anyone that can use python/git/linux.

14ned · 27-06-2018 03:50PM

srsly78 wrote: »

I would love to hire someone to help with Fortran, but none of you hipsters are interested Maths/Physics grads are better suited than CompSci tbh. Failing that I would take anyone that can use python/git/linux.

I thought you're in London?

srsly78 · 27-06-2018 03:51PM

Nope, north Dublin. There are loads of open positions here tbh - but all are for senior unicorns. I keep telling bosses to hire young people instead!

14ned · 27-06-2018 04:04PM

srsly78 wrote: »

Nope, north Dublin. There are loads of open positions here tbh - but all are for senior unicorns. I keep telling bosses to hire young people instead!

I should tempt you back into the evil field of C++ so ... the Dublin C++ users meetup is one of the larger in the world. I may be personally boring everybody to death there end of the summer maybe, working title for my talk is "Deterministic Disappointment".

awec · 27-06-2018 04:21PM

GarIT wrote: »

Another issue is what I have highlighted in your post. If you are any good you will walk into a job. A job, but not necessarily a good job. I've gotten a good few job offers but they all involve some element of customer service, are mainly testing based or something else similarly undesirable. Out of my 5 best friends at college, one is working on a state of the art machine learning project, one is working for SkyBet in a reasonably good job, one is in Irish life doing what looks like an incredibly ****ty graduate program, one is a junior IT consultant in Accenture which to me is less than desirable and one is unemployed as am I. Everyone in our group got decent 2:1s or better and that's what we ended up with.

What I'm looking for is a role that is mostly development, obviously code needs to be tested, meetings are needed occasionally to discuss the work being done and sometimes higher level support from the devs are needed but I won't take a role where I'm testing somebody else code, helping users that forgot their password or not spending 5+ hours of most 8 hour days writing or testing my own code. I'm averaging 2-3 companies contacting me per week asking me to interview for roles that are primarily customer service or testing related but no dev jobs yet after 6 months of looking.

I don't think it's too demanding, I'm just looking for a job the is primarily a dev job, hopefully with possibility of progression but I'd almost take anything at this stage if I get to write code. I't not like I did bad in college either, I've a good first in Software engineering in a BSc. from an Irish University. I'm currently doing a masters at night in Big Data and I've 9 months experience as a C# developer, developing a real time information system for a reputable FinTech company. Yet I'm struggling to get a decent graduate job.

I forgot to add I also have a years experience as a lecturers assistant in Software Design Process , computer architecture, and operating systems and have 8 years experience in Tech support. And also to add I'm mostly only looking for backend jobs, as that's what I have experience in so it's limiting me a little too but there's no point in me going for jobs that want, PHP, Ruby and Javascript when I've never used those.

Have you applied for many roles? What was the feedback you got?

mcgucc22 · 27-06-2018 04:43PM

14ned wrote:

Unlike almost everybody here who will be replying based on city pay levels, I'd consider that a fine offer for outside of Dublin. They're offering â‚¬400/week initial, rising to â‚¬500/week after six months if you work out. In somewhere like Mallow where I live, you'd be happy out on that as you can rent a full house with garden for a month with just a week of work. You'd be much better off than most with jobs in Mallow (if you lived in Mallow).

What kind of dump are you renting in mallow for 400/500 euro a month?

14ned · 27-06-2018 04:48PM

mcgucc22 wrote: »

What kind of dump are you renting in mallow for 400/500 euro a month?

Me personally? Three bedroom semi, garden back and front, 550/month. Little village outside Mallow.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 27-06-2018 04:58PM

14ned wrote: »

Me personally? Three bedroom semi, garden back and front, 550/month. Little village outside Mallow.

rent, or mortgage?

14ned · 27-06-2018 05:06PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

rent, or mortgage?

Rent

. Contractors aren't granted mortgages by banks unless your wife works, and mine is busy with childcare.

AlmightyCushion · 27-06-2018 06:07PM

GarIT wrote: »

Another issue is what I have highlighted in your post. If you are any good you will walk into a job. A job, but not necessarily a good job. I've gotten a good few job offers but they all involve some element of customer service, are mainly testing based or something else similarly undesirable. Out of my 5 best friends at college, one is working on a state of the art machine learning project, one is working for SkyBet in a reasonably good job, one is in Irish life doing what looks like an incredibly ****ty graduate program, one is a junior IT consultant in Accenture which to me is less than desirable and one is unemployed as am I. Everyone in our group got decent 2:1s or better and that's what we ended up with.

What I'm looking for is a role that is mostly development, obviously code needs to be tested, meetings are needed occasionally to discuss the work being done and sometimes higher level support from the devs are needed but I won't take a role where I'm testing somebody else code, helping users that forgot their password or not spending 5+ hours of most 8 hour days writing or testing my own code. I'm averaging 2-3 companies contacting me per week asking me to interview for roles that are primarily customer service or testing related but no dev jobs yet after 6 months of looking.

I don't think it's too demanding, I'm just looking for a job the is primarily a dev job, hopefully with possibility of progression but I'd almost take anything at this stage if I get to write code. I't not like I did bad in college either, I've a good first in Software engineering in a BSc. from an Irish University. I'm currently doing a masters at night in Big Data and I've 9 months experience as a C# developer, developing a real time information system for a reputable FinTech company. Yet I'm struggling to get a decent graduate job.

I forgot to add I also have a years experience as a lecturers assistant in Software Design Process , computer architecture, and operating systems and have 8 years experience in Tech support. And also to add I'm mostly only looking for backend jobs, as that's what I have experience in so it's limiting me a little too but there's no point in me going for jobs that want, PHP, Ruby and Javascript when I've never used those.

I understand the point you're making but you should probably consider some of the jobs you've been offered. I know someone who was looking for a dev role out of college and ended up taking a 100% test role. They weren't even 6 months in the place and got moved into a dev role. Once you have a job it can lead to other job opportunities and job hunting definitely gets easier once you have a bit of experience under your belt even if that experience isn't 100% dev based.

Raging_Ninja · 27-06-2018 06:50PM

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I understand the point you're making but you should probably consider some of the jobs you've been offered. I know someone who was looking for a dev role out of college and ended up taking a 100% test role. They weren't even 6 months in the place and got moved into a dev role. Once you have a job it can lead to other job opportunities and job hunting definitely gets easier once you have a bit of experience under your belt even if that experience isn't 100% dev based.

As the saying goes, it's always easier to get a job when you have a job. But be aware that if you stay longer than 6 months or a year in QA or software support that HR drones will see you as only a QA or support person.

AlmightyCushion · 27-06-2018 07:46PM

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

As the saying goes, it's always easier to get a job when you have a job. But be aware that if you stay longer than 6 months or a year in QA or software support that HR drones will see you as only a QA or support person.

True but you'd probably have a better chance of getting a dev job than if you'd spent that 6 months or a year unemployed.

DevLit · 27-06-2018 07:52PM

OP here.

I just want to say that I'm enjoying the work I'm doing. It's bug fixes and refactoring so I can get use to some of the projects they have, but it's interesting. I do a code review every morning with my manager, and always gain advice. The days also fly in.

Yea the money isn't great, but for now at least I don't care. I live at home, no expenses really, so I can afford to start like this. Thankfully

Buford T Justice · 27-06-2018 10:50PM

Fair play, if you're happy in what you're doing, but in my opinion, whilst respectfully disagreeing with some of my more learned peers here is that you are drastically underselling yourself, especially in Dublin.

I know people who have graduated in college and started as graduates on circa 30K way outside of Dublin. That in my opinion should scale up in dublin because of the cost of living and blah blah.
Ultimately its your choice, but remember there are better opportunities for someone of your level.

GarIT · 28-06-2018 10:51AM

awec wrote: »

Have you applied for many roles? What was the feedback you got?

I haven't counted exactly, around 30. I've never gotten any feedback, I haven't bothered asking places that didn't reply. I did 4 interviews with Jaguar and they ignored an email for feedback but replied to one about paying for my travel, they said they would without me asking before I went to the interview. I've had a couple of phone or initial interviews, and the feedback has typically been things like they found someone with more experience in the particular thing they were looking for or just a one liner saying they found someone more suitable for the role. I haven't ever heard back anything negative about me or anything I could improve. They probably do exist but I just haven't been told. One recently was to take my address off my CV and that other companies may not want to interview someone from Tallaght, so I'll be doing that despite feeling I shouldn't have to.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I understand the point you're making but you should probably consider some of the jobs you've been offered. I know someone who was looking for a dev role out of college and ended up taking a 100% test role. They weren't even 6 months in the place and got moved into a dev role. Once you have a job it can lead to other job opportunities and job hunting definitely gets easier once you have a bit of experience under your belt even if that experience isn't 100% dev based.

I've thought that, I probably will after college. But at the moment I think it would be counterproductive to take a job I don't want while trying to get a degree that will help me get a job that I do want. Grades are more important to me than testing experience right now.

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

As the saying goes, it's always easier to get a job when you have a job. But be aware that if you stay longer than 6 months or a year in QA or software support that HR drones will see you as only a QA or support person.

I'm already getting that with my tech support experience. Amazon offered me a job as a network support engineer after I went for software engineer.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

True but you'd probably have a better chance of getting a dev job than if you'd spent that 6 months or a year unemployed.

I'm hoping my college covers that for now, I wasn't unemployed I was doing a masters.

AlmightyCushion · 28-06-2018 11:01AM

GarIT wrote: »

I haven't counted exactly, around 30. I've never gotten any feedback, I haven't bothered asking places that didn't reply. I did 4 interviews with Jaguar and they ignored an email for feedback but replied to one about paying for my travel, they said they would without me asking before I went to the interview. I've had a couple of phone or initial interviews, and the feedback has typically been things like they found someone with more experience in the particular thing they were looking for or just a one liner saying they found someone more suitable for the role. I haven't ever heard back anything negative about me or anything I could improve. They probably do exist but I just haven't been told. One recently was to take my address off my CV and that other companies may not want to interview someone from Tallaght, so I'll be doing that despite feeling I shouldn't have to.

I've thought that, I probably will after college. But at the moment I think it would be counterproductive to take a job I don't want while trying to get a degree that will help me get a job that I do want. Grades are more important to me than testing experience right now.

I'm already getting that with my tech support experience. Amazon offered me a job as a network support engineer after I went for software engineer.

I'm hoping my college covers that for now, I wasn't unemployed I was doing a masters.

My bad, I thought you were finished college already. Yeah, it doesn't make sense to take a test job right now when you're still in college, you may as well hold out for a dev job. Also, don't be afraid of applying for jobs in stuff you don't have experience in (e.g. the web roles you mentioned in another post). If that area is something you want to do any way the company might still hire you and be willing to train you up/give you time to learn it.

GarIT · 28-06-2018 05:16PM

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

My bad, I thought you were finished college already. Yeah, it doesn't make sense to take a test job right now when you're still in college, you may as well hold out for a dev job. Also, don't be afraid of applying for jobs in stuff you don't have experience in (e.g. the web roles you mentioned in another post). If that area is something you want to do any way the company might still hire you and be willing to train you up/give you time to learn it.

I'm finished my undergrad, I'm now doing a masters 6-10pm 3 nights a week in Dublin 1 and I'll be finished in January. so that's why I'm looking for jobs but being a pit picky.

Earthhorse · 07-07-2018 11:07AM

Your address shouldn't be on your CV because it's not relevant information. You're prospective employer doesn't need to know where you live for the purposes of deciding whether to hire you. I'm in Dublin 4 and don't have my address on mine. Get rid of it, it's superfluous information.

experiMental · 20-07-2018 12:10AM

Ok, here's my 2 cents. If your job pays so low, how much money is your workplace's management team making? Maybe the problem lies in your workplace and employees can get salary increases, when income distribution will be improved.

If you are doing a job and it's not unionised and the government doesn't set a minimum wage for that job, then you will earn whatever the employer thinks that you should be earning.

The most important questions about your job are :
- are you learning and practising skills which will allow you to get highly paid work later on? If yes, then find a way to improve those skills even more.

- are you working in an environment which teaches you to find shortcuts to learning new things rapidly? If yes, then try to negotiate for better pay in your current job.

- are you working on projects which get continuously cancelled and have a lot of downtime? If so, then make the effort to push those projects to completion.

pauliebdub · 21-07-2018 07:23PM

The problem with accepting a low salary is that when you look to change jobs and are asked what your current salary is, disclosing a low salary will make you look like a mug so the new company could cut back what they will offer you. My advice would be to try and get the best deal that you can. It's an employee's market out there at the moment, make the most of it.

matrim · 21-07-2018 07:27PM

pauliebdub wrote: »

The problem with accepting a low salary is that when you look to change jobs and are asked what your current salary is, disclosing a low salary will make you look like a mug so the new company could cut back what they will offer you. My advice would be to try and get the best deal that you can. It's an employee's market out there at the moment, make the most of it.

Just don't tell the new company your current salary. Tell them what you expect

swampgas · 21-07-2018 07:29PM

matrim wrote: »

Just don't tell the new company your current salary. Tell them what you expect

Agree with this - but don't lie either. As far as I know they will find out your existing salary when they get your P45.

*edit* You can spin it as "one of the reasons I'm looking for a new position is that I feel my current compensation doesn't reflect my contribution to the company. For the position advertised I would expect a salary in the range ...."

Tell them what you want, not what you're on. They won't care.

pauliebdub · 21-07-2018 07:33PM

swampgas wrote: »

Agree with this - but don't lie either. As far as I know they will find out your existing salary when they get your P45.

A lot of companies ask about current salary though it has no real relevance to the position applied for. I'd personally prefer not to lie and be found out and have the role recinded. It hard to get around.

swampgas · 21-07-2018 07:34PM

pauliebdub wrote: »

A lot of companies ask about current salary though it has no real relevance to the position applied for. I'd personally prefer not to lie and be found out and have the role recinded. It hard to get around.

Quite often (IME) they just want to make sure you're not already on a higher salary than they are prepared to offer.

* editing - again! * You can also be vague and say what range your salary is in. For example, if you're on 21k, you can tell them that your current salary is in the 20-30k range, and decline to be more specific. Just keep asking them what the salary range on offer is instead.

zig · 21-07-2018 07:48PM

Definitely no point in lying. Nothing to be gained from it. Especially if its a small company and they pay attention to the P45. It would be at best embarrassing, at worst a risk to your job.

Pelvis · 21-07-2018 08:54PM

You don't need a P45 if changing jobs.

Raging_Ninja · 21-07-2018 08:58PM

Just say you're not comfortable discussing your pay with strangers. Any figure you give will just be used to lowball you. When it comes to expected salary, I say market rate.

Any figure they give you, look a bit disappointed and say something noncommittal. That alone can be worth a couple of grand.

Worked out pretty well for me this time around.

swampgas · 21-07-2018 08:59PM

Pelvis wrote: »

You don't need a P45 if changing jobs.

I don't know the details, but as soon as your new employer issues your first paycheck, and assuming you don't start working at the start of the tax year, there will be a "total pay to date this year" figure which will tell them what you were earning.

I could be wrong here about the mechanism, but I'm pretty confident that you can't easily hide your previous salary from a new employer.

BorneTobyWilde · 21-07-2018 09:00PM

I'm on zero a year, go figure.

Accepting a low salary to start your career

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