Accepting a low salary to start your career

Buford T Justice

DevLit wrote: »

Hi All, OP here.

I appreciate all the replies and advice given here. I do understand its low, but I need a start. I'm going to take it for 6 months at least, and look for better money than. I'm seriously broke atm, so I'd rather have a low paying job, where I'm learning and gaining experience, than sitting at home waiting for something else.

The fact I had no experience probably worked against me. I felt like I had no leg to stand on. The job isn't in Dublin, but I live in Dublin.

Tbh, with the job market for software the way it currently is, I can't imagine you've not been able to get a graduate job with better salary than that. 20k is an insult imo.

rom

https://www.cpl.ie/Library/CPL/cpl.ie/Documents/Salary-Guide-ONLINE-8th-Feb-2018.pdf

Says 25-33k for PHP/ Web Developer nationwide so yes you are being shafted.

awec

DevLit wrote: »

Hi All, OP here.

I appreciate all the replies and advice given here. I do understand its low, but I need a start. I'm going to take it for 6 months at least, and look for better money than. I'm seriously broke atm, so I'd rather have a low paying job, where I'm learning and gaining experience, than sitting at home waiting for something else.

The fact I had no experience probably worked against me. I felt like I had no leg to stand on. The job isn't in Dublin, but I live in Dublin.

Take it, but don't wait six months. Keep looking now because you can do a lot better now. Even with no experience you should be getting more than that.

One of two things will happen. You'll find something better and you'll leave, or you'll find something better and your employer will realise they are shafting you (or at least they'll realise that you have realised that they're shafting you) and up your salary accordingly.

It's not low, it's awful really. It's pretty much minimum wage. Someone with zero qualifications working 40 hours a week stacking shelves is earning almost as much as you are.

14ned

DevLit wrote: »

The job is a PHP(Laravel) and JavaScript developer.
The only issue is the salary. Its 20K, which will be reviewed in the new year to 25K. I know its low, but I have no experience in industry, and it was the first offer I got.

Would you accept this to start your career?

Unlike almost everybody here who will be replying based on city pay levels, I'd consider that a fine offer for outside of Dublin. They're offering €400/week initial, rising to €500/week after six months if you work out. In somewhere like Mallow where I live, you'd be happy out on that as you can rent a full house with garden for a month with just a week of work. You'd be much better off than most with jobs in Mallow (if you lived in Mallow).

However, you live in Dublin, so that pay level is not sustainable long term. So I'd do a year there in good faith, but then start looking for something else. After two years experience it gets far easier to land a junior role, especially if you've spent those two years building out an impressive portfolio. So, use the commute time to do exactly that, invest in yourself for two years out from now. Upskill relentlessly.

And until then, enjoy earning your first wage! Trust me you'll never get those first six months back again. Earning and work becomes much more jaded and cynical later on. But those first six months, your ignorance is such bliss, and finally having actual money to hand instead of constant poverty is amazing.

It was a long time ago when I graduated, but back in the 1990s my first developer role paid £10,000, so £200/week, of which about £160/week remained after taxes. It was enough to have fun in life on, and far more earnings than most of my peer group - I was "rich" relative to them. Far more important was the experience, and especially contacts, gained. Within three years, using said contacts, I landed a temporary contract paying three grand a week, which cleared my student debts within a few months. That was running up into the tech bubble by then, so all sorts of craziness was happening like that. We're currently in the later stages of another tech bubble, so look to do the same thing: get on ladder, get up ladder as fast as possible, hope to clear all your debts before the bubble pops once again.

Niall

purpleisafruit

Graduated in 2015 as a mature student, started on 41k as I negotiated up from 36k based on previous experience in other industries. 3 years later, after changing jobs twice and I'm now at 90k. I'm in DevOps so there's a shortage of us and it's pretty much name your price.
In our class FB group, salary survey revealed average starting salary of about 35k

mloc123

20k is minimum wage.

A grad developer should be looking at 35k to start IMO

awec

14ned wrote: »

Unlike almost everybody here who will be replying based on city pay levels, I'd consider that a fine offer for outside of Dublin. They're offering €400/week initial, rising to €500/week after six months if you work out. In somewhere like Mallow where I live, you'd be happy out on that as you can rent a full house with garden for a month with just a week of work. You'd be much better off than most with jobs in Mallow (if you lived in Mallow).

However, you live in Dublin, so that pay level is not sustainable long term. So I'd do a year there in good faith, but then start looking for something else. After two years experience it gets far easier to land a junior role, especially if you've spent those two years building out an impressive portfolio. So, use the commute time to do exactly that, invest in yourself for two years out from now. Upskill relentlessly.

And until then, enjoy earning your first wage! Trust me you'll never get those first six months back again. Earning and work becomes much more jaded and cynical later on. But those first six months, your ignorance is such bliss, and finally having actual money to hand instead of constant poverty is amazing.

It was a long time ago when I graduated, but back in the 1990s my first developer role paid £10,000, so £200/week, of which about £160/week remained after taxes. It was enough to have fun in life on, and far more earnings than most of my peer group - I was "rich" relative to them. Far more important was the experience, and especially contacts, gained. Within three years, using said contacts, I landed a temporary contract paying three grand a week, which cleared my student debts within a few months. That was running up into the tech bubble by then, so all sorts of craziness was happening like that. We're currently in the later stages of another tech bubble, so look to do the same thing: get on ladder, get up ladder as fast as possible, hope to clear all your debts before the bubble pops once again.

Niall

Minimum wage? Really?

I don't think so. Doesn't matter if you live in D4 or a hamlet in Longford, it's a terrible salary.

Why on earth would he do a year in good faith? If he gets a better offer tomorrow he should take it. And you're telling him we're in the middle of a tech bubble, but he should accept a salary that's pretty much derisory?

jobless

purpleisafruit wrote: »

Graduated in 2015 as a mature student, started on 41k as I negotiated up from 36k based on previous experience in other industries. 3 years later, after changing jobs twice and I'm now at 90k. I'm in DevOps so there's a shortage of us and it's pretty much name your price.
In our class FB group, salary survey revealed average starting salary of about 35k

what course did you do?...

man, i left college in 2003 and have stuck around too long in companies... not even on 60k as a software engineer... im a lazy bugger.... think i need to start looking about given all the figures people are throwing about

jobless

as for the guy in the civil service.... i guess when you agree to work for civil service you generally accept the lower pay but will probably never be stressed or have strict deadlines for anything

mloc123

jobless wrote: »

what course did you do?...

man, i left college in 2003 and have stuck around too long in companies... not even on 60k as a software engineer... im a lazy bugger.... think i need to start looking about given all the figures people are throwing about

I would say move to a US multinational if possible.

jon1981

mloc123 wrote: »

I would say move to a US multinational if possible.

To rest and vest is it?

mloc123

jon1981 wrote: »

To rest and vest is it?

Pretty much tbh.

purpleisafruit

jobless wrote: »

what course did you do?...

man, i left college in 2003 and have stuck around too long in companies... not even on 60k as a software engineer... im a lazy bugger.... think i need to start looking about given all the figures people are throwing about

I did Computer Science. I got lucky tbh, landed into a large multinational and they were transitioning to devops from more traditional development. Next job was a startup that had been bought out and I was first devops person in the door. Got to build out a team of 8 so great experience, now in a senior lead role for another US startup with a salary I negotiated hard on and a mound of stocks.
The way to make money is moving, no financial rewards for loyalty!

jobless

mloc123 wrote: »

I would say move to a US multinational if possible.

i'm in one.... but its been a while since any pay rise.... im doing my best to get one!

jobless

purpleisafruit wrote: »

I did Computer Science. I got lucky tbh, landed into a large multinational and they were transitioning to devops from more traditional development. Next job was a startup that had been bought out and I was first devops person in the door. Got to build out a team of 8 so great experience, now in a senior lead role for another US startup with a salary I negotiated hard on and a mound of stocks.
The way to make money is moving, no financial rewards for loyalty!

true that, if i could back in time id give myself a slap in the chops and drill that advice into me!

14ned

awec wrote: »

Minimum wage? Really?

I don't think so. Doesn't matter if you live in D4 or a hamlet in Longford, it's a terrible salary.

It really isn't. My sister has a degree and two Masters degrees. Her husband has a degree and a Masters. Total household income last year: €18k, earned via six part time jobs.

People near the cities have no idea what things are like in rural Ireland. The labour market is sticky. Having any job at all makes you fortunate. So many others you know have been on Jobseekers since 2009, with zero hope of any job any time soon. Such people have been discarded by society.

awec wrote: »

Why on earth would he do a year in good faith? If he gets a better offer tomorrow he should take it. And you're telling him we're in the middle of a tech bubble, but he should accept a salary that's pretty much derisory?

It's not derisory. I'd consider it fair for a fresh graduate, who contribute very little value and suck up lots of productivity from others. Just because some city roles are way overpaid doesn't mean it's sensible nor rational.

The good faith part is how you build relationships over time, and a contacts network. Flaking out six months into a role does not build confidence. A lot of people have criticised me sticking with my current Dublin contract which pays peanuts because the market has bounced back since the awfulness of last year, and suddenly I'm hugely in demand again (Google once again are circling me, it's irritating). But I'm also very mindful that I was unemployed, and unemployable for ten months in 2017. This contract, though lowly paid doing nothing but bug fixing all day long, saved me and my family at the time, and I'm minded to serve out my agreed time. It could then be the case that, being considered reliable, others will be more likely to recommend me or suggest me for further more lucrative roles down the line.

Same goes for new graduates. People don't go the extra mile for those who consider maximising short term income as the only goal, and don't mind who they burn and inconvenience along the way. And people going that extra mile is what gets you into the really lucrative roles, the ones which never get publicly advertised, like the contract I had a few years back where I had so much surplus cash I just bought a car for the wife for Christmas, with cash. That's where you want to be at.

Niall

mloc123

14ned wrote: »

It really isn't. My sister has a degree and two Masters degrees. Her husband has a degree and a Masters. Total household income last year: €18k, earned via six part time jobs.

People near the cities have no idea what things are like in rural Ireland. The labour market is sticky. Having any job at all makes you fortunate. So many others you know have been on Jobseekers since 2009, with zero hope of any job any time soon. Such people have been discarded by society.

It is. It is literally minimum wage... (9.55x40)X52 = 19864

The OP has a degree in an area that is currently in very high demand, any company offering such a low amount it taking the piss.

ec18

There's a couple of bits tho this that I might have missed,
1. is it a small company that provides websites or a start up that develops a software product?

21K isn't great for a dev in a properly funded start ups but if you're working creating websites in small local business it might be all that they can pay

Somedaythefire

Jesus no that's truly awful, I did an internship in 2013 that paid 18k a year. I started off at €30k after turning down a job offer for €24k right after graduating.

amcalester wrote: »

Let me guess, you live in Baldoyle?

what?

um7y1h83ge06nx

I started on 27k in 2005 in Limerick. Now grads in Limerick are looking at 32k, maybe more.

OP - are they offering any other benefits? i.e. pension contributions, healthcare, bonus etc. They would want to be offering all that with that base salary.

Paul_Mc1988

Intel and i think pfizer is about 48k straight out of college with an ordinary degree. Only downside is you work shift. 20k with a masters is bull****.

_brendand_

DevLit wrote: »

Hi

I'm a recent college graduate in Computer Science. I accepted my first job recently and I enjoy the work. Its a smallish company with 10 people. Its a handy commute as well.

The job is a PHP(Laravel) and JavaScript developer.
The only issue is the salary. Its 20K, which will be reviewed in the new year to 25K. I know its low, but I have no experience in industry, and it was the first offer I got.

Would you accept this to start your career?

If you're in Donegal maybe. If you're in Dublin it's ridiculously low. As a reference point my first job was £24,000 in 2007 in London.

Sebastian Dangerfield

OP it does seem very low. For comparison, I started on 22k in financial services with an average mark in a general arts degree, 13 years ago. My sister, unskilled from an educational perspective, works as an office administrator on 30k, with only 2 years experience in a "professional" environment - i.e. a few years in retail before it, but nothing directly relevant.

Your skilled qualification may be balanced out by a good supply of similarly skilled people, but it does seem very low.

Twenty Grand

14ned wrote: »

It really isn't. My sister has a degree and two Masters degrees. Her husband has a degree and a Masters. Total household income last year: €18k, earned via six part time jobs.

People near the cities have no idea what things are like etc.etc


Niall

Disregard all of this.
You don't owe any employer anything. Follow the money and follow the interesting work.
You have a skill that's in demand, so make hay while the sun shines.

If someone wants to pay you more then jump ship to them if your current employer won't match it.
Don't feel bad or guilty about it because guaranteed they won't look after you.

Peatys

Calculon1982 wrote: »

Is 20k not a really good starting salary?

I'm 36 with 2 degrees working in the civil service on 31k a year. Took me 8 years to work up to that level.

Surely 1k a year increase over your career is fairly standard no?

My sister was on more than that stacking shelves in spar

Berserker

DefinitelyMarc wrote: »

If they're willing to settle a naive first-timer on that kind of a low ball, I'd doubt their integrity, and doubt whether they'll actually bump you up in the new year. I would go as far to say don't bother trying to negotiate a fair raise and just jump ship as soon as you can get a better offer.

I'd also doubt the quality of the work or the value that they place on software development. It's a start for the OP, so he or she can get some experience under their belt and move to a better role in a few years.

Conservatory wrote: »

No it’s the world of make believe where everybody pulls 100k a year. I’ve seen personal assistants on boards getting that and benefits and stock options

Ah people talk nonsense. I was a principal software engineer until recently and I wasn't getting that much. The architects I worked with were getting €95K or so.

awec

14ned wrote: »

It really isn't. My sister has a degree and two Masters degrees. Her husband has a degree and a Masters. Total household income last year: €18k, earned via six part time jobs.

People near the cities have no idea what things are like in rural Ireland. The labour market is sticky. Having any job at all makes you fortunate. So many others you know have been on Jobseekers since 2009, with zero hope of any job any time soon. Such people have been discarded by society.



It's not derisory. I'd consider it fair for a fresh graduate, who contribute very little value and suck up lots of productivity from others. Just because some city roles are way overpaid doesn't mean it's sensible nor rational.

The good faith part is how you build relationships over time, and a contacts network. Flaking out six months into a role does not build confidence. A lot of people have criticised me sticking with my current Dublin contract which pays peanuts because the market has bounced back since the awfulness of last year, and suddenly I'm hugely in demand again (Google once again are circling me, it's irritating). But I'm also very mindful that I was unemployed, and unemployable for ten months in 2017. This contract, though lowly paid doing nothing but bug fixing all day long, saved me and my family at the time, and I'm minded to serve out my agreed time. It could then be the case that, being considered reliable, others will be more likely to recommend me or suggest me for further more lucrative roles down the line.

Same goes for new graduates. People don't go the extra mile for those who consider maximising short term income as the only goal, and don't mind who they burn and inconvenience along the way. And people going that extra mile is what gets you into the really lucrative roles, the ones which never get publicly advertised, like the contract I had a few years back where I had so much surplus cash I just bought a car for the wife for Christmas, with cash. That's where you want to be at.

Niall

This actually makes no sense whatsoever. It is not "overpaid" to be paid more than minimum wage for skilled work that's in demand. I would expect decent interns to be getting more than minimum wage for their time.

Your attitude here seems to be "just be happy you're getting anything at all cause sure you got nothing when you were a student". Why on earth would he do this when he could be earning a lot more?

This building contacts thing is a load of bollocks really. It is absolutely not worth working for a terrible income for six months to get a few names. He can build up contacts outside of work. Look after yourself first and foremost, maximise your income. If there really is a bubble do you want to be looking back in years time thinking when everyone else was raking in the cash you were sitting earning 20k a year? Doubtful. You'd be some fool.

Geuze

Calculon1982 wrote: »

Is 20k not a really good starting salary?

I'm 36 with 2 degrees working in the civil service on 31k a year. Took me 8 years to work up to that level.

Surely 1k a year increase over your career is fairly standard no?

It's not terrible, but it's not good.

Qualified accountants aged 25 approx start on 44-48k, in Dublin.

Average earnings for FT workers is 45-46k.

jon1981

jobless wrote: »

i'm in one.... but its been a while since any pay rise.... im doing my best to get one!

You're in the wrong one :pac:

With alot of US listed tech companies it's not unusual to be compensated with Stock (RSUs) over yearly base pay increases.

Geuze

Calculon1982 wrote: »

To be honest it's always been beyond my control in the civil service. You can't ask for a pay raise to reflect qualifications.

Basically you start at the bottom and have to accept the yearly increment amount which is circa 1k on average.

Typical COs don't have two degrees.