Accepting a low salary to start your career

DevLit

Hi

I'm a recent college graduate in Computer Science. I accepted my first job recently and I enjoy the work. Its a smallish company with 10 people. Its a handy commute as well.

The job is a PHP(Laravel) and JavaScript developer.
The only issue is the salary. Its 20K, which will be reviewed in the new year to 25K. I know its low, but I have no experience in industry, and it was the first offer I got.

Would you accept this to start your career?

awec

Seems very low.

It seems you have already accepted it, and 20k is obviously a lot better than nothing, but if I were you I'd still be actively looking for a new job.

DefinitelyMarc

Honestly yeah, that is extremely low for anywhere, I was on 28K for my first job (Waterford, not Dublin).

If they're willing to settle a naive first-timer on that kind of a low ball, I'd doubt their integrity, and doubt whether they'll actually bump you up in the new year. I would go as far to say don't bother trying to negotiate a fair raise and just jump ship as soon as you can get a better offer.

I will caveat that you should try to renegotiate if the commute is really that good and you're learning a lot. If your commute is less than 15 minutes and you're being exposed to all parts of the development process, then maybe stick it out for a while. Also if you can work from your parents home, then keep doing that and save your money. You'd be surprised how quickly it piles up after a year.

Buford T Justice

to be fair, I wouldn't spend 3 years in college and take 20K a year. I know I'm worth more than that..

That said, what's done is done. Chalk it down to experience and look for another job. Amazon have just announced 1000 jobs in dublin so its an employees market at the minute.

Calculon1982

Is 20k not a really good starting salary?

I'm 36 with 2 degrees working in the civil service on 31k a year. Took me 8 years to work up to that level.

Surely 1k a year increase over your career is fairly standard no?

Conservatory

Calculon1982 wrote: »

Is 20k not a really good starting salary?

I'm 36 with 2 degrees working in the civil service on 31k a year. Took me 8 years to work up to that level.

Surely 1k a year increase over your career is fairly standard no?

No it’s the world of make believe where everybody pulls 100k a year. I’ve seen personal assistants on boards getting that and benefits and stock options

amcalester

Calculon1982 wrote: »

Is 20k not a really good starting salary?

I'm 36 with 2 degrees working in the civil service on 31k a year. Took me 8 years to work up to that level.

Surely 1k a year increase over your career is fairly standard no?

€1k a year wouldn’t keep me in a job.

Twenty Grand

Calculon1982 wrote: »

Is 20k not a really good starting salary?

I'm 36 with 2 degrees working in the civil service on 31k a year. Took me 8 years to work up to that level.

Surely 1k a year increase over your career is fairly standard no?

It's pants. Mine was 26k straight out of college, 28k the following year, then 48 when I moved jobs in year 3.

By all means accept the job, add it to your CV and keep looking.

Pelvis

Calculon1982 wrote: »

Is 20k not a really good starting salary?

I'm 36 with 2 degrees working in the civil service on 31k a year. Took me 8 years to work up to that level.

Surely 1k a year increase over your career is fairly standard no?

21k is a good starting salary if you're 18 starting your first job.

31k with 2 degrees and 8 years experience is atrocious.

Sono

Calculon1982 wrote: »

Is 20k not a really good starting salary?

I'm 36 with 2 degrees working in the civil service on 31k a year. Took me 8 years to work up to that level.

Surely 1k a year increase over your career is fairly standard no?

Do you not think 31k with 2 degrees is a low salary? Just my opinion obviously but it seems low with your qualifications

Calculon1982

Sono wrote: »

Do you not think 31k with 2 degrees is a low salary? Just my opinion obviously but it seems low with your qualifications

To be honest it's always been beyond my control in the civil service. You can't ask for a pay raise to reflect qualifications.

Basically you start at the bottom and have to accept the yearly increment amount which is circa 1k on average.

A2LUE42

Would expect for IT to have Grads starting on 28k ish down the country, more in Dublin.

Forgot to add. Bonus would be extra on top of that and should have good health cover, sick pay scheme etc.

jon1981

Calculon1982 wrote: »

Is 20k not a really good starting salary?

I'm 36 with 2 degrees working in the civil service on 31k a year. Took me 8 years to work up to that level.

Surely 1k a year increase over your career is fairly standard no?

With the greatest respect, you're living under a rock. Your situation might suit your lifestyle however.

Buford T Justice

Calculon1982 wrote: »

Is 20k not a really good starting salary?

I'm 36 with 2 degrees working in the civil service on 31k a year. Took me 8 years to work up to that level.

Surely 1k a year increase over your career is fairly standard no?

as an unskilled worker perhaps,

not as a skilled software dev. its pants.

Calculon1982

jon1981 wrote: »

With the greatest respect, you're living under a rock. Your situation might suit your lifestyle however.

Fair enough. I'd been under the impression that the civil service was a good employer. Perhaps its time to look elsewhere.

Francie Barrett

A2LUE42 wrote: »

Would expect for IT to have Grads starting on 28k ish down the country, more in Dublin.

Forgot to add. Bonus would be extra on top of that and should have good health cover, sick pay scheme etc.

Yep, 28k or so sounds about right for an IT graduate.

I would definitely be looking around for an alternative role, at least keep your options open.

jon1981

Calculon1982 wrote: »

Fair enough. I'd been under the impression that the civil service was a good employer. Perhaps its time to look elsewhere.

Depends what job security is worth to you.

Calculon1982

jon1981 wrote: »

Depends what job security is worth to you.

Probobly not a huge amount considering the job market at the min.

It feel I have hijacked this guys thread so will bow out now.

DevLit

Hi All, OP here.

I appreciate all the replies and advice given here. I do understand its low, but I need a start. I'm going to take it for 6 months at least, and look for better money than. I'm seriously broke atm, so I'd rather have a low paying job, where I'm learning and gaining experience, than sitting at home waiting for something else.

The fact I had no experience probably worked against me. I felt like I had no leg to stand on. The job isn't in Dublin, but I live in Dublin.

Twenty Grand

If you're stuck then take it. No reason not to. It's easier to find a job when you're working and it'll give you a good taster of a professional work environment.

If someone else offers you more then you can move on or negotiate with your employer, so its win win!

John_C

DevLit wrote: »

I appreciate all the replies and advice given here. I do understand its low, but I need a start. I'm going to take it for 6 months at least, and look for better money than. I'm seriously broke atm, so I'd rather have a low paying job, where I'm learning and gaining experience, than sitting at home waiting for something else.

You're doing the right thing. With 6 months experience you can start applying for junior roles paying ~30k.

LionelNashe

20k is only about €1k more than a customer service rep would get in a lot of call centres, starting off, and some call centres would start their people at €22k; so for a job that requires programming/development, I'd say €20k is not enough.

It takes a while to learn that you have to be genuinely prepared to walk away from offers, and to leave jobs, if you are to have any negotiating leverage.

Whether €31k for somebody with two degrees with 8 years of experience is good or not depends on the nature of the degrees. A bog standard science or arts degree, for example, is fairly irrelevant in terms of qualifying anyone to do most jobs. Civil service has other advantages though; great job security, promotion prospects, transfer prospects if you get bored, flexi-time; plus you're working (in theory) for the public good rather than for the shareholders of some business or other.

amcalester

DevLit wrote: »

Hi All, OP here.

I appreciate all the replies and advice given here. I do understand its low, but I need a start. I'm going to take it for 6 months at least, and look for better money than. I'm seriously broke atm, so I'd rather have a low paying job, where I'm learning and gaining experience, than sitting at home waiting for something else.

The fact I had no experience probably worked against me. I felt like I had no leg to stand on. The job isn't in Dublin, but I live in Dublin.

Let me guess, you live in Baldoyle?

bogwalrus

Literally finished my last exam in May in soft dev. Got a job last week for 32K and even I didn't think that was great however I will definitely learn alot with this company. Cork city.

Deco99

John_C wrote: »

You're doing the right thing. With 6 months experience you can start applying for junior roles paying ~30k.

...and don't forget to jump ship asap so be looking elsewhere immediately. Don't get into a comfy situation. Some people hang around in jobs and think they'll get rewarded... You won't. You get paid either by moving or by getting a counter offer if you are valued by your current employer. No one turns volunteers to pay you more without a squeeze

J Mysterio

My understanding is 25k is a starting salary in IT. OP did well anyway starting out. Can get a bit of experience, and keep his eye open for another opportunity if they dont give a decent raise after year 1.

verodi

IT grad started at 36k, went up to 43k after 1.5 years. P60 after first year was 46k (shift work and some weekends), so 20 k seems very little especially with an IT qualification.

boege

'At Honours Bachelor Degree level, Computer Science/ICT graduates are the highest earners, with 57 per cent earning €29,000 or more.'


Source:http://hea.ie/2017/02/15/hea-report-shows-ongoing-improvement-in-employment-opportunities-and-salaries-for-graduates/


and that is 2015 graduates.

wirelessdude01

Take it but keep looking. When I first started in IT I took a three month job to get experience. Had 8 jobs lined up at the end and picked one. Stayed less than 6 months and moved again. Constantly moving for better pay and conditions. Moved into a multi-national the. Liked it and stayed probably too long. Never got the role I wanted as they seemed to prefer external appointments. Left for the role I wanted but in a different company but was back in original multi-national again within 7 months in the role they wouldn't give me previously. Between the 2 moves my pay went up €47k base. Loyalty doesn't get rewarded.

Have since moved into the public service and love it but the pay is rubbish. My bonus in my final private sector year was higher than my current yearly salary but there are other perks.

A2LUE42

OP. Get on LinkedIn and connect to your class mates and anyone else you know in the industry. That is a good indicator of where people in a similar situation are getting jobs. Make sure you have a professional looking profile. Huge source for recruitment into the industry these days.

Electric Sheep

Calculon1982 wrote: »

jon1981 wrote: »

Depends what job security is worth to you.

Probobly not a huge amount considering the job market at the min.

It feel I have hijacked this guys thread so will bow out now.

Job markets wax and wane though. For some people the security can make it easier to get a mortgage etc. Different strokes and all that. Job security means a lot to some.

Buford T Justice

DevLit wrote: »

Hi All, OP here.

I appreciate all the replies and advice given here. I do understand its low, but I need a start. I'm going to take it for 6 months at least, and look for better money than. I'm seriously broke atm, so I'd rather have a low paying job, where I'm learning and gaining experience, than sitting at home waiting for something else.

The fact I had no experience probably worked against me. I felt like I had no leg to stand on. The job isn't in Dublin, but I live in Dublin.

Tbh, with the job market for software the way it currently is, I can't imagine you've not been able to get a graduate job with better salary than that. 20k is an insult imo.

rom

https://www.cpl.ie/Library/CPL/cpl.ie/Documents/Salary-Guide-ONLINE-8th-Feb-2018.pdf

Says 25-33k for PHP/ Web Developer nationwide so yes you are being shafted.

awec

DevLit wrote: »

Hi All, OP here.

I appreciate all the replies and advice given here. I do understand its low, but I need a start. I'm going to take it for 6 months at least, and look for better money than. I'm seriously broke atm, so I'd rather have a low paying job, where I'm learning and gaining experience, than sitting at home waiting for something else.

The fact I had no experience probably worked against me. I felt like I had no leg to stand on. The job isn't in Dublin, but I live in Dublin.

Take it, but don't wait six months. Keep looking now because you can do a lot better now. Even with no experience you should be getting more than that.

One of two things will happen. You'll find something better and you'll leave, or you'll find something better and your employer will realise they are shafting you (or at least they'll realise that you have realised that they're shafting you) and up your salary accordingly.

It's not low, it's awful really. It's pretty much minimum wage. Someone with zero qualifications working 40 hours a week stacking shelves is earning almost as much as you are.

14ned

DevLit wrote: »

The job is a PHP(Laravel) and JavaScript developer.
The only issue is the salary. Its 20K, which will be reviewed in the new year to 25K. I know its low, but I have no experience in industry, and it was the first offer I got.

Would you accept this to start your career?

Unlike almost everybody here who will be replying based on city pay levels, I'd consider that a fine offer for outside of Dublin. They're offering €400/week initial, rising to €500/week after six months if you work out. In somewhere like Mallow where I live, you'd be happy out on that as you can rent a full house with garden for a month with just a week of work. You'd be much better off than most with jobs in Mallow (if you lived in Mallow).

However, you live in Dublin, so that pay level is not sustainable long term. So I'd do a year there in good faith, but then start looking for something else. After two years experience it gets far easier to land a junior role, especially if you've spent those two years building out an impressive portfolio. So, use the commute time to do exactly that, invest in yourself for two years out from now. Upskill relentlessly.

And until then, enjoy earning your first wage! Trust me you'll never get those first six months back again. Earning and work becomes much more jaded and cynical later on. But those first six months, your ignorance is such bliss, and finally having actual money to hand instead of constant poverty is amazing.

It was a long time ago when I graduated, but back in the 1990s my first developer role paid £10,000, so £200/week, of which about £160/week remained after taxes. It was enough to have fun in life on, and far more earnings than most of my peer group - I was "rich" relative to them. Far more important was the experience, and especially contacts, gained. Within three years, using said contacts, I landed a temporary contract paying three grand a week, which cleared my student debts within a few months. That was running up into the tech bubble by then, so all sorts of craziness was happening like that. We're currently in the later stages of another tech bubble, so look to do the same thing: get on ladder, get up ladder as fast as possible, hope to clear all your debts before the bubble pops once again.

Niall

purpleisafruit

Graduated in 2015 as a mature student, started on 41k as I negotiated up from 36k based on previous experience in other industries. 3 years later, after changing jobs twice and I'm now at 90k. I'm in DevOps so there's a shortage of us and it's pretty much name your price.
In our class FB group, salary survey revealed average starting salary of about 35k

mloc123

20k is minimum wage.

A grad developer should be looking at 35k to start IMO

awec

14ned wrote: »

Unlike almost everybody here who will be replying based on city pay levels, I'd consider that a fine offer for outside of Dublin. They're offering €400/week initial, rising to €500/week after six months if you work out. In somewhere like Mallow where I live, you'd be happy out on that as you can rent a full house with garden for a month with just a week of work. You'd be much better off than most with jobs in Mallow (if you lived in Mallow).

However, you live in Dublin, so that pay level is not sustainable long term. So I'd do a year there in good faith, but then start looking for something else. After two years experience it gets far easier to land a junior role, especially if you've spent those two years building out an impressive portfolio. So, use the commute time to do exactly that, invest in yourself for two years out from now. Upskill relentlessly.

And until then, enjoy earning your first wage! Trust me you'll never get those first six months back again. Earning and work becomes much more jaded and cynical later on. But those first six months, your ignorance is such bliss, and finally having actual money to hand instead of constant poverty is amazing.

It was a long time ago when I graduated, but back in the 1990s my first developer role paid £10,000, so £200/week, of which about £160/week remained after taxes. It was enough to have fun in life on, and far more earnings than most of my peer group - I was "rich" relative to them. Far more important was the experience, and especially contacts, gained. Within three years, using said contacts, I landed a temporary contract paying three grand a week, which cleared my student debts within a few months. That was running up into the tech bubble by then, so all sorts of craziness was happening like that. We're currently in the later stages of another tech bubble, so look to do the same thing: get on ladder, get up ladder as fast as possible, hope to clear all your debts before the bubble pops once again.

Niall

Minimum wage? Really?

I don't think so. Doesn't matter if you live in D4 or a hamlet in Longford, it's a terrible salary.

Why on earth would he do a year in good faith? If he gets a better offer tomorrow he should take it. And you're telling him we're in the middle of a tech bubble, but he should accept a salary that's pretty much derisory?

jobless

purpleisafruit wrote: »

Graduated in 2015 as a mature student, started on 41k as I negotiated up from 36k based on previous experience in other industries. 3 years later, after changing jobs twice and I'm now at 90k. I'm in DevOps so there's a shortage of us and it's pretty much name your price.
In our class FB group, salary survey revealed average starting salary of about 35k

what course did you do?...

man, i left college in 2003 and have stuck around too long in companies... not even on 60k as a software engineer... im a lazy bugger.... think i need to start looking about given all the figures people are throwing about

jobless

as for the guy in the civil service.... i guess when you agree to work for civil service you generally accept the lower pay but will probably never be stressed or have strict deadlines for anything

mloc123

jobless wrote: »

what course did you do?...

man, i left college in 2003 and have stuck around too long in companies... not even on 60k as a software engineer... im a lazy bugger.... think i need to start looking about given all the figures people are throwing about

I would say move to a US multinational if possible.

jon1981

mloc123 wrote: »

I would say move to a US multinational if possible.

To rest and vest is it?

mloc123

jon1981 wrote: »

To rest and vest is it?

Pretty much tbh.

purpleisafruit

jobless wrote: »

what course did you do?...

man, i left college in 2003 and have stuck around too long in companies... not even on 60k as a software engineer... im a lazy bugger.... think i need to start looking about given all the figures people are throwing about

I did Computer Science. I got lucky tbh, landed into a large multinational and they were transitioning to devops from more traditional development. Next job was a startup that had been bought out and I was first devops person in the door. Got to build out a team of 8 so great experience, now in a senior lead role for another US startup with a salary I negotiated hard on and a mound of stocks.
The way to make money is moving, no financial rewards for loyalty!

jobless

mloc123 wrote: »

I would say move to a US multinational if possible.

i'm in one.... but its been a while since any pay rise.... im doing my best to get one!

jobless

purpleisafruit wrote: »

I did Computer Science. I got lucky tbh, landed into a large multinational and they were transitioning to devops from more traditional development. Next job was a startup that had been bought out and I was first devops person in the door. Got to build out a team of 8 so great experience, now in a senior lead role for another US startup with a salary I negotiated hard on and a mound of stocks.
The way to make money is moving, no financial rewards for loyalty!

true that, if i could back in time id give myself a slap in the chops and drill that advice into me!

14ned

awec wrote: »

Minimum wage? Really?

I don't think so. Doesn't matter if you live in D4 or a hamlet in Longford, it's a terrible salary.

It really isn't. My sister has a degree and two Masters degrees. Her husband has a degree and a Masters. Total household income last year: €18k, earned via six part time jobs.

People near the cities have no idea what things are like in rural Ireland. The labour market is sticky. Having any job at all makes you fortunate. So many others you know have been on Jobseekers since 2009, with zero hope of any job any time soon. Such people have been discarded by society.

awec wrote: »

Why on earth would he do a year in good faith? If he gets a better offer tomorrow he should take it. And you're telling him we're in the middle of a tech bubble, but he should accept a salary that's pretty much derisory?

It's not derisory. I'd consider it fair for a fresh graduate, who contribute very little value and suck up lots of productivity from others. Just because some city roles are way overpaid doesn't mean it's sensible nor rational.

The good faith part is how you build relationships over time, and a contacts network. Flaking out six months into a role does not build confidence. A lot of people have criticised me sticking with my current Dublin contract which pays peanuts because the market has bounced back since the awfulness of last year, and suddenly I'm hugely in demand again (Google once again are circling me, it's irritating). But I'm also very mindful that I was unemployed, and unemployable for ten months in 2017. This contract, though lowly paid doing nothing but bug fixing all day long, saved me and my family at the time, and I'm minded to serve out my agreed time. It could then be the case that, being considered reliable, others will be more likely to recommend me or suggest me for further more lucrative roles down the line.

Same goes for new graduates. People don't go the extra mile for those who consider maximising short term income as the only goal, and don't mind who they burn and inconvenience along the way. And people going that extra mile is what gets you into the really lucrative roles, the ones which never get publicly advertised, like the contract I had a few years back where I had so much surplus cash I just bought a car for the wife for Christmas, with cash. That's where you want to be at.

Niall

mloc123

14ned wrote: »

It really isn't. My sister has a degree and two Masters degrees. Her husband has a degree and a Masters. Total household income last year: €18k, earned via six part time jobs.

People near the cities have no idea what things are like in rural Ireland. The labour market is sticky. Having any job at all makes you fortunate. So many others you know have been on Jobseekers since 2009, with zero hope of any job any time soon. Such people have been discarded by society.

It is. It is literally minimum wage... (9.55x40)X52 = 19864

The OP has a degree in an area that is currently in very high demand, any company offering such a low amount it taking the piss.

ec18

There's a couple of bits tho this that I might have missed,
1. is it a small company that provides websites or a start up that develops a software product?

21K isn't great for a dev in a properly funded start ups but if you're working creating websites in small local business it might be all that they can pay

Somedaythefire

Jesus no that's truly awful, I did an internship in 2013 that paid 18k a year. I started off at €30k after turning down a job offer for €24k right after graduating.

amcalester wrote: »

Let me guess, you live in Baldoyle?

what?

um7y1h83ge06nx

I started on 27k in 2005 in Limerick. Now grads in Limerick are looking at 32k, maybe more.

OP - are they offering any other benefits? i.e. pension contributions, healthcare, bonus etc. They would want to be offering all that with that base salary.