Luas Fine - but tapped my card!

doolox · 26-06-2018 11:30AM

I am lucky in that I seldom use the Luas and seldom have to go into the city centre for anything. I would not be getting a leap card as I find technology confusing enough as it is. I would not want to risk a heavy fine for incorrect use. When you say they treated you like a thief do you they detain you in a police station or some such office or building???

What is the procedure?? I have seen some of these Luas Officers and they look like bouncers or thugs of some description, not my favourite group of people as loud mouthed friends of mine in the past have lost teeth to these animals. Its very hard to tell someone when to shut up when you're in a crowd and everyone is pushing and shoving and all excited about nothing.

Many of the more physical and bullying people I went to school with ended up as bouncers, security or some even in the Guards, although a tiny minority as the standards maintained in the Guards is relatively high regarding bullying behaviour.

When using the Luas I'll stick with cash only.

gmisk · 26-06-2018 11:34AM

doolox wrote: »

When using the Luas I'll stick with cash only.

I personally would never use cash (I have an tax saver ticket so not needed).
The leap card is incredibly handy from my POV.

There are also serious amount of quite agressive beggars at some of the stops (Abbey street especially) so I wouldnt feel particularly safe buying tickets at machine in cash.

magicbastarder · 26-06-2018 11:35AM

Seregwethrin wrote: »

So do you expect 100s of people to queue and tap off when getting of Luas in front of 3-4 machines?

i have been known to use the luas. cross over onto the other platform and tag off there. i've never had a problem with this.
if the luas is too crowded for you to use without following the rules, do not use it.

bk · 26-06-2018 12:06PM

doolox wrote: »

I am lucky in that I seldom use the Luas and seldom have to go into the city centre for anything. I would not be getting a leap card as I find technology confusing enough as it is. I would not want to risk a heavy fine for incorrect use. When you say they treated you like a thief do you they detain you in a police station or some such office or building???

Leap is incredibly easy to use. On Luas, simply tag-on at a validator before boarding and tag-off at a validator after you get off. Incredibly simple.

If you are concerned simply watch what the screen on the validator says when you tag-on/off. It will tell you if it tagged on or not. Simple.

As for treated like a thief? No you aren't detained, they simply ask for your name, address and ID and issue you a penalty fine then and there. If you refuse to give your details, then yes they will call the Gardai to deal with you, but that only applies to complete idiots.

Note in the US, ticket checking is usually done by regular armed police and yes they will handcuff you and bring you off to the station as a common thief, since in the US it is considered to be theft no different then shoplifting a bottle of milk from Tesco.

Here in Ireland we are far lighter touch with the whole thing, hell I don't think we could be any lighter touch with it.

Also I don't think your comments about security folk and bouncers is particularly helpful. All the security folks I know are decent people who have a though job dealing with the absolute worst scumbags and drunken idiots our city has to offer. They are there to try and help regular folks from getting assaulted, abused and robbed by said scumbags. I'd rather they were replaced by a proper transport police service, but I'd much rather have them then not at all.

TheChizler · 26-06-2018 12:29PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

i have been known to use the luas. cross over onto the other platform and tag off there. i've never had a problem with this.
if the luas is too crowded for you to use without following the rules, do not use it.

I would have thought this would tag you on going the opposite direction, are the machines not platform dependent?

gmisk · 26-06-2018 12:30PM

TheChizler wrote: »

I would have thought this would tag you on going the opposite direction, are the machines not platform dependent?

Nope not at all, can you any one at the stop

cdeb · 26-06-2018 12:32PM

TheChizler wrote: »

I would have thought this would tag you on going the opposite direction, are the machines not platform dependent?

It only needs to know where you got on and where you got off - the direction is actually irrelevant.

Seregwethrin wrote: »

Go to Stephen's Green watch people getting off and let the reality bite you.

I have done this many times, as I'm sure plenty of others have too.

It'd take a minute max to get to tag off. Probably less.

No excuse.

TheChizler · 26-06-2018 12:40PM

gmisk wrote: »

Nope not at all, can you any one at the stop

You learn something new every day. Glad I know, I would have assumed that if you got off at one stop (without tagging off - assume you were paying the maximum fare or whatever), went and did whatever you needed for 20 minutes, you would tag back on at the other platform and go back the way you were going.

I would have thought that you would now be tagged on for the opposite direction, and the meantime the original journey would expire after an hour or whatever it is. I'd have found myself in the OP's situation, having made a genuine attempt to use the system.

So the takeaway message is, the Leap card can either be tagged on or off for Luas, direction of travel or line is not considered? What's to stop someone getting the tram to a stop, and going back the way they came without paying a second time? Are the inspectors' machines aware of the direction of travel?

o1s1n · 26-06-2018 12:41PM

In all my years travelling public transport I've received one rail fine and two luas fines.

All for different reasons, but none down to me trying to skip out on paying my fare. I've contested them all and have had them cancelled.

OP I basically did what you did in your post. Outline step by step with proof along the way, outlining what happened. (And show that you are a regular paying customer). Definitely worth a shot.

Seregwethrin · 26-06-2018 12:46PM

TheChizler wrote: »

You learn something new every day. Glad I know, I would have assumed that if you got off at one stop (without tagging off - assume you were paying the maximum fare or whatever), went and did whatever you needed for 20 minutes, you would tag back on at the other platform and go back the way you were going.

I would have thought that you would now be tagged on for the opposite direction, and the meantime the original journey would expire after an hour or whatever it is. I'd have found myself in the OP's situation, having made a genuine attempt to use the system.

So the takeaway message is, the Leap card can either be tagged on or off for Luas, direction of travel or line is not considered? What's to stop someone getting the tram to a stop, and going back the way they came without paying a second time? Are the inspectors' machines aware of the direction of travel?

If you check my attached image of inspector machine on the first post you can see inspectors machines are aware of where you boarded.

Then again, if you are tagged on, the machine would give a green light because even though the inspector is aware of the location I do not think the machine itself is aware where is the machine at that time.

If you are boarded at Sandyford got off at Stephen's Green, handled your business in half an hour or so got on to Luas there again and if you are going to Sandyford again I don't think machine would give you red light as you would still be tagged on.

But then inspector can say "hold on, you are boarded in Sandyford, but this train is going to Sandyford and not there yet. You ticket is invalid"

TheChizler · 26-06-2018 12:47PM

I think I'll get the bus

Seregwethrin · 26-06-2018 12:52PM

yeah, people say it is very simple to use Luas, it is not.

Within how much time you can change Luas again?
Can you go back the same direction you came with the original ticket?
How to tag on again if machine tags you off?
Can you change lines with the same ticket?
What happens if you pay and the ticket tags off during the journey as it expires by some amount of time we don't know?

dudara · 26-06-2018 12:54PM

TheChizler wrote: »

You learn something new every day. Glad I know, I would have assumed that if you got off at one stop (without tagging off - assume you were paying the maximum fare or whatever), went and did whatever you needed for 20 minutes, you would tag back on at the other platform and go back the way you were going.

I would have thought that you would now be tagged on for the opposite direction, and the meantime the original journey would expire after an hour or whatever it is. I'd have found myself in the OP's situation, having made a genuine attempt to use the system.

So the takeaway message is, the Leap card can either be tagged on or off for Luas, direction of travel or line is not considered? What's to stop someone getting the tram to a stop, and going back the way they came without paying a second time? Are the inspectors' machines aware of the direction of travel?

It’s a very simple binary system. You’re either tagged on or tagged off. The system just needs to know where you tagged on and where you tagged off, and it will do the rest.

In the case of the OP, he had two options but unfortunately didn’t take other option.
1. Tag on at start or journey, tag off at end of journey.
2 Tag on & off for stage 1, then tag on & off for stage 2.

Seregwethrin · 26-06-2018 12:55PM

dudara wrote: »

It’s a very simple binary system. You’re either tagged on or tagged off. The system just needs to know where you tagged on and where you tagged off, and it will do the rest.

In the case of the OP, he had two options but unfortunately didn’t take other option.
1. Tag on at start or journey, tag off at end of journey.
2 Tag on & off for stage 1, then tag on & off for stage 2.

I tried to tag on when boarding at stage 2, the machine didn't tell me to wait 90 seconds.

Who knew here you had to wait 90 seconds to be able to tap again?

Purple Mountain · 26-06-2018 12:55PM

bk wrote: »

Leap is incredibly easy to use. On Luas, simply tag-on at a validator before boarding and tag-off at a validator after you get off. Incredibly simple.

If you are concerned simply watch what the screen on the validator says when you tag-on/off. It will tell you if it tagged on or not. Simple.

As for treated like a thief? No you aren't detained, they simply ask for your name, address and ID and issue you a penalty fine then and there. If you refuse to give your details, then yes they will call the Gardai to deal with you, but that only applies to complete idiots.

Note in the US, ticket checking is usually done by regular armed police and yes they will handcuff you and bring you off to the station as a common thief, since in the US it is considered to be theft no different then shoplifting a bottle of milk from Tesco.

Here in Ireland we are far lighter touch with the whole thing, hell I don't think we could be any lighter touch with it.

Also I don't think your comments about security folk and bouncers is particularly helpful. All the security folks I know are decent people who have a though job dealing with the absolute worst scumbags and drunken idiots our city has to offer. They are there to try and help regular folks from getting assaulted, abused and robbed by said scumbags. I'd rather they were replaced by a proper transport police service, but I'd much rather have them then not at all.

I remember being on the rail service in Paris years ago with my friend.
We had underpaid our ticket as we were in the wrong zone.
The train inspectors on board wouldn't accept our argument that with the language barrier we didn't understand and at the next station we were accompanied off the train where there was additional staff to surround us like a herd and escort us off the platform where they made us pay a fine on the spot with a Visa terminal before we could get the next train.
Now that was being treated like a criminal!
They were only doing their job though but we felt it was overboard!

Del2005 · 26-06-2018 12:56PM

Seregwethrin wrote: »

Go to Stephen's Green watch people getting off and let the reality bite you.

That is an unrealistic expectation from passengers.

Passengers are used to queuing when it's busy and it's never more than a minute or 2 of a wait. It would have saved you a lot more time if you had queued to tag off.

verycool · 26-06-2018 01:00PM

Seregwethrin wrote: »

I tried to tag on when boarding at stage 2, the machine didn't tell me to wait 90 seconds.

Who knew here you had to wait 90 seconds to be able to tap again?

You keep coming back to this "90 second" thing (that you were told by the inspector, but I'm now assuming that it was just a made up figure by him/her requesting you to wait before tapping again).

The machine stated "invalid".

You knowingly got on the tram without first confirming that you were tagged on.

fxotoole · 26-06-2018 01:08PM

Seregwethrin wrote: »

Why do you think I was impatient?

cos you couldn't wait 90 seconds for the card to reset itself

Stephen15 · 26-06-2018 01:11PM

I do think there should be validators on board trams aswell as on platform. Most tram systems on the continent that I've been have been have validators on board trams sometimes even ticket machines also. It would be handy if you are running to catch a tram so you don't have to worry about tagging on and missing the tram.

26-06-2018 01:21PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

I do think there should be validators on board trams aswell as on platform. Most tram systems on the continent that I've been have been have validators on board trams sometimes even ticket machines also. It would be handy if you are running to catch a tram so you don't have to worry about tagging on and missing the tram.

A lot of people would abuse that system and only tag on when they see the inspector getting on.

I am also intrigued by a question a different poster asked:

If I went on my lunchbreak from Central Park to Aldi in Sandyford, is it valid for me to tag on at Central Park, get my lunch, get the luas back to central park and then tag off?

cdeb · 26-06-2018 01:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If I went on my lunchbreak from Central Park to Aldi in Sandyford, is it valid for me to tag on at Central Park, get my lunch, get the luas back to central park and then tag off?

I think not.

Certainly, the Luas website (as quoted earlier) recommends that you tag off at the end of each trip.

You can in theory not do this when changing lines - because then your trip is from, say, Sandyford to the Point.

But I think what would happen if the inspectors came along in your case is they would find you travelling southbound towards the station you tagged on at (i.e. Central Park). I would imagine that would be an invalid ticket.

I agree on your comment on the validation machines on board - though I wonder what the difference with abroad is? Is it that it's for paper tickets abroad, but the Luas card would be a particular issue?

Dardania · 26-06-2018 01:42PM

fxotoole wrote: »

Seregwethrin wrote: »

Why do you think I was impatient?

cos you couldn't wait 90 seconds for the card to reset itself

How does OP know invalid will disappear after 90 seconds, and they can re-tag?

26-06-2018 01:43PM

cdeb wrote: »

I think not.

Certainly, the Luas website (as quoted earlier) recommends that you tag off at the end of each trip.

You can in theory not do this when changing lines - because then your trip is from, say, Sandyford to the Point.

But I think what would happen if the inspectors came along in your case is they would find you travelling southbound towards the station you tagged on at (i.e. Central Park). I would imagine that would be an invalid ticket.

I agree on your comment on the validation machines on board - though I wonder what the difference with abroad is? Is it that it's for paper tickets abroad, but the Luas card would be a particular issue?

I must check that up. I do that frequently and don't want to get caught out with a fine. It takes my standard €2*whatever off and then when I go back it refunds me €1*something.

As I said, I better check. For the sake of a couple of cent, I don't want the embarrassment or the expense of a fine.

TheChizler · 26-06-2018 01:48PM

It seems a good few people don't find the simple system that simple. Again, it's simple when you're familiar with it, but for the average person who just turns up at the stop unsure of what to do it's unclear. Even an A4 poster with a few bullet points would help. We shouldn't have to resort to asking people on a forum how the basic parts of the system work, you should be able to find out 90% of what you need to do within a few seconds at the stop itself.

cdeb · 26-06-2018 01:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I must check that up. I do that frequently and don't want to get caught out with a fine. It takes my standard €2*whatever off and then when I go back it refunds me €1*something.

As I said, I better check. For the sake of a couple of cent, I don't want the embarrassment or the expense of a fine.

Does it allow you tag on and off at the same stop?

Would have thought it should flag something to you then.

As I say, I'm just supposing here. I don't know for sure.

26-06-2018 02:05PM

cdeb wrote: »

Does it allow you tag on and off at the same stop?

Would have thought it should flag something to you then.

As I say, I'm just supposing here. I don't know for sure.

Yup. Lets me tag on and refunds me just under half the fare when I tag off. No unusual tone or any strange message on the screen; just "Tag-off -€1.whatever".

Round trip usually takes -30mins

fxotoole · 26-06-2018 02:14PM

Dardania wrote: »

How does OP know invalid will disappear after 90 seconds, and they can re-tag?

The message on the screen is not “invalid”, it’s “just validated”. Pretty self explanatory.

I regularly get a train to connolly to get my train home. When I’m in Connolly I sometimes leave the platform to go to the shop in the lobby. To do so, I have to tag off. Then I go to the shop and make my purchases. When I tag in again, I sometimes get the “just validated” message. So I just wait a minute or two for the 90 seconds to pass, and then I try again. Simples.

Stephen15 · 26-06-2018 02:43PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A lot of people would abuse that system and only tag on when they see the inspector getting on.

But how do you think other cities with on board validators manage? Don't allow passengers use the on board validators unless boarding. If a ticket inspector sees someone tag on at who clearly hasn't just boarded fine them.

Dardania · 26-06-2018 03:18PM

fxotoole wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

How does OP know invalid will disappear after 90 seconds, and they can re-tag?

The message on the screen is not “invalid”, it’s “just validated”. Pretty self explanatory.

I regularly get a train to connolly to get my train home. When I’m in Connolly I sometimes leave the platform to go to the shop in the lobby. To do so, I have to tag off. Then I go to the shop and make my purchases. When I tag in again, I sometimes get the “just validated” message. So I just wait a minute or two for the 90 seconds to pass, and then I try again. Simples.

In my opinion It’s not simple for the re-tagger’s use case.

It’s fine to display “just validated” if you want feedback if you tagged on correctly, but it’s not clear for someone who has tagged off and wants to tag on again, which IS a valid use case.

Seregwethrin · 26-06-2018 03:21PM

yeah, it's not like machine told me to wait and I didn't.

Maybe it was never going to tagged me on again, maybe it was going to require 5 minutes or 55, who knew?
Guess work has no place there. We are not living to figure out how Luas works, it is a transportation service.

Luas Fine - but tapped my card!

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