Luas Fine - but tapped my card!

Seregwethrin

Hi,

The unexpected circumstance happened like this:
* At 7:25PM (leapcard history is attached): I was going North to Broombridge from South on the Green line.
* Tram was only going to Parnell, so got off at Stephen's Green
* Good weather, had a nice walk up towards Stephen's Green, got into a toilet
* At: 8:28PM (debit card receipt is attached): bought a soft drink at the Tesco besides the Westmoreland
* At 8:30PM (leapcard history is attached): Tapped at Westmoreland again, machine beeped properly but said "Tag off" and gave me back +€0.25.
* Tapped again, machine beeped proper but said "INVALID"
* My broombridge tram came, got on that because my card works, I have balance on it, I tapped even twice, just paid €2.45 an hour ago, I need to go to my destination, there is nothing I can do more.

Inspector came:
* At 8:37PM (Inspector's card machine's photo is attached) He said he has a red light. I shouldn't be on the train.
* I said I tapped. Explained my journey.
* He said I should have waited 90 seconds to tap again.
* I said I don't know that. Machine didn't tell me that. I should have tapped and I did tap, even twice.
* Told me he understands but he has a red light and needs to get my ID.
* I said there you go. I didn't do anything wrong. I am not trying to steal. I did what I should have done. I can't hack into Luas's machine and understand how it works.

Also inspector told me:
* I should have tagged off at Stephen's Green.
* BUT: Should 100s of people have to queue in front of 3-4 ticket machines at Stephen's Green to tag off for €0.00 or €0.20, is that how Luas works, is that mandatory? Because very small amount of people tag off at Stephen's Green due to the crowd as me.

Conclusion:
* The machine tagged me off more than an hour later after the tag on (7:25PM tag on, 8:30PM tag off) and it didn't tell me how to tag on, i.e. wait for 90 seconds and tap again even though I tapped twice.

I am going to appeal to this.

They have also embarrassed me in public like I am a thief even though I explained the situation and the inspector clearly saw I paid a ticket at an hour ago. The security guard was just standing besides me like I am a criminal.

If they still want me to pay the fine should I take it go to court?

Any guidance?

Thank you

gmisk

You werent tagged in
* Tapped again, machine beeped proper but said "INVALID"

So I would pay the fine, have you tired emailing though with those details?

verycool

gmisk wrote: »

You werent tagged in
* Tapped again, machine beeped proper but said "INVALID"

So I would pay the fine, have you tired emailing though with those details?

Agreed. I wouldn't have boarded the tram if I was getting "invalid" on the machine. I'd tap again until I got verification.

gmisk

Also why did you tag out?
You can stay tagged in for 90 minutes I think, so you could just tag out when you arrive?

marvin80

gmisk wrote: »

You werent tagged in
* Tapped again, machine beeped proper but said "INVALID"

So I would pay the fine, have you tired emailing though with those details?

I had a similar situation - when you tag off you have to wait a few minutes before it will allow you to tag on again.
I tagged off, dropped something off and then very shortly tagged on again but it didn't tag on again properly - but I wasn't aware of that.
Plenty of credit on my Leapcard - always pay for my journeys etc..

Got a fine on the Luas, appealed it and they sent me some bullsh*t email.

Haven't bothered using the Luas since!!

Seregwethrin

gmisk wrote: »

Also why did you tag out?
You can stay tagged in for 90 minutes I think, so you could just tag out when you arrive?

There is no switch to say "I want to tag on" or "off" when you tap.
I tapped to get on the tram at Westmoreland but it tagged me off.
I tapped again it said Invalid.
Machine should have said wait 90 seconds before tapping again.

Inspector agreed that I shouldn't have learned this from him, the machine should I been more clear. But he told me he has a red light and he has to get my details because it seems they also question him if he doesn't get details on a red light.

ED E

Ignorance is no defence. Don't be stupid and try to contest this in court.

The FIRST google result.

How should I Touch On / Off my Leap Card after Luas Cross City opens

There is no change to the way you Touch On / Off your Leap Card on Luas. You should to Touch On before you get on the tram and Touch Off after you get off the tram.

If you are using both lines our best advice is to Touch On and Off for the 1st tram trip and then after you change lines Touch On and Off for the 2nd tram trip. By Touching On/Off for each tram trip you will get the best value fare for your overall journey, you will have a valid ticket and you will have the flexibility to change your mind about the 2nd part of your journey.

You can also Touch On before the 1st tram trip; change trams and Touch Off after the 2nd tram trip but be careful to not Touch Off or On by accident.

A working example of a trip using both lines from Balally to Heuston is outline below. To complete your journey you should;

- Touch On before you board the tram on the Green Line at Balally stop
- Touch Off after you get off the tram on the Green Line at O'Connell - GPO stop
- Touch On before you board the tram on the Red Line at Abbey Street stop
- Touch Off after you get off the tram on the Red Line at Heuston stop

Luas recommends that you Touch On and Off for the 1st tram trip and then after you change lines to Touch On and Off for the 2nd tram trip for the following reasons;

- You will get the best value fare for your overall journey on both lines
- You will have a valid ticket and will not get a Standard Fare of €45 increasing to €100 if not paid in two weeks
- You will have the flexibility to change your mind about or deter the 2nd part of your journey

ED E

Seregwethrin wrote: »

There is no switch to say "I want to tag on" or "off" when you tap.
I tapped to get on the tram at Westmoreland but it tagged me off.
.

Think of a light switch. If status is ON it can only change to off, if off it can only change to on. Toggling an ON card will always give you an OFF card.

Seregwethrin

ED E wrote: »

Ignorance is no defence. Don't be stupid and try to contest this in court.

The FIRST google result.

How should I Touch On / Off my Leap Card after Luas Cross City opens

That information still doesn't mention you need to 90 seconds if you want to be tagged on and if the machine tags you off.

I didn't change lines. I was on the same line, changed trams but it already passed an hour after my first tap. Is it 90 minutes you can change without tapping again? Where is this information? Why the machines don't give any information or there is no written information at the stops?

Seregwethrin

ED E wrote: »

Think of a light switch. If status is ON it can only change to off, if off it can only change to on. Toggling an ON card will always give you an OFF card.

When you look at a light switch you know if it is on or off.
How do you know if your card is tagged on or off?

Mine was more than an hour so I tapped again.

verycool

Seregwethrin wrote: »

That information still doesn't mention you need to 90 seconds if you want to be tagged on and if the machine tags you off.

I didn't change lines. I was on the same line, changed trams but it already passed an hour after my first tap. Is it 90 minutes you can change without tapping again? Where is this information? Why the machines don't give any information or there is no written information at the stops?

I keep wanting to come back to this "invalid" message.



You ignored it and boarded anyway when you could have waited to double check.

ED E

Same site:

You also must complete this journey within 180 mins. If you Touch On before the 1st tram, don’t touch off and then for some reason don’t take a 2nd tram and Touch Off within the 180 mins timeline or don’t take a 2nd tram at all you will automatically be charged the maximum 5-8 Zones Leap Card fare; peak or off peak depending on the time of the day.

The original time limits were 60(?) minutes but when the extended lines came into service that went up as for cross city.


The tag terminals are designed to be fast. Thats it. Tag tag tag. If you needed info dropping your card into the ticket machine would have given you the current status and prior transactions.


If your card failed in Tesco would you just walk out with the shopping? No. Don't see how you think you have a leg to stand on here.

Seregwethrin

verycool wrote: »

I keep wanting to come back to this "invalid" message.



You ignored it and boarded anyway when you could have waited to double check.

My card was working fine, I had balance on it, auto top up is enabled, my tram is coming, I am tapping, should I have kept tapping as it said "invalid" until it didn't say so? Maybe it was going to say invalid for 2 hours. What should I have done wasn't clear and I had everything setup to utilise the service that was provided but service wasn't clear to explain how to and when to tap.

cdeb

Seregwethrin wrote: »

When you look at a light switch you know if it is on or off.
How do you know if your card is tagged on or off?

You tap it at the ticket machine

Seregwethrin

cdeb wrote: »

You tap it at the ticket machine

What do you do when machine said "invalid"?

Seregwethrin

ED E wrote: »

Same site:


The original time limits were 60(?) minutes but when the extended lines came into service that went up as for cross city.


The tag terminals are designed to be fast. Thats it. Tag tag tag. If you needed info dropping your card into the ticket machine would have given you the current status and prior transactions.


If your card failed in Tesco would you just walk out with the shopping? No. Don't see how you think you have a leg to stand on here.

I already paid a ticket 65 minutes ago €2.45. I did pay.

cdeb

Seregwethrin wrote: »

What do you do when machine said "invalid"?

I presume it was invalid because you'd changed status so recently.

In that case, I guess wait five minutes for the card to fix itself and tag on again.

Either way, to check the status of your card, never use the validator machine

ED E

Seregwethrin wrote: »

What do you do when machine said "invalid"?

Your OP

* Tapped again, machine beeped proper but said "INVALID"

The tag terminal would have gone red/amber when you tapped. Thats your cue to go find out whats up. Theres a phone number if you need help.


TLDR: Seregwethrin was impatient, got fined, feels hard done by.

Seregwethrin

cdeb wrote: »

I presume it was invalid because you'd changed status so recently.

In that case, I guess wait five minutes for the card to fix itself and tag on again.

Either way, to check the status of your card, never use the validator machine

It is not 5 minutes, 90 seconds, inspector told me.
That's the issue isn't it, "your guess", "my guess", no clear guidance from the machine except "invlalid" and I just paid €2.45 an hour ago.

Seregwethrin

ED E wrote: »

Your OP


The tag terminal would have gone red/amber when you tapped. Thats your cue to go find out whats up. Theres a phone number if you need help.


TLDR: Seregwethrin was impatient, got fined, feels hard done by.

Why do you think I was impatient?

TheChizler

cdeb wrote: »

I presume it was invalid because you'd changed status so recently.

In that case, I guess wait five minutes for the card to fix itself and tag on again.

Either way, to check the status of your card, never use the validator machine

This information should really be printed at the validator or ticket machine. As someone not from Dublin I've found Luas not very user friendly when you arrive at the stop unsure of what to do and there's a tram coming. I'm capable of researching online in advance and usually do but I've never felt confident I'm doing the right thing. Not every user would be capable of looking up the info online. Even a sign saying "Tap before getting on and again after getting off" would go a long way.

cdeb

Seregwethrin wrote: »

It is not 5 minutes, 90 seconds, inspector told me.
That's the issue isn't it, "your guess", "my guess", no clear guidance from the machine except "invlalid" and I just paid €2.45 an hour ago.

Fine; wait 90 seconds so. But if your card flashes "invalid", you may as well find out why

ED E

Seregwethrin wrote: »

Why do you think I was impatient?

The validator flagged an issue. You were clearly aware of that fact. You got on anyways instead of checking out whats wrong and getting the next tram (4 min intervals at that time AFAIK).

Anyways, it seems everything is falling on deaf ears here. /Out.

Eire Go Brach

Just tell them your a junkie. And junkies do whatever the hell we like on the luas.

cdeb

TheChizler wrote: »

This information should really be printed at the validator or ticket machine. As someone not from Dublin I've found Luas not very user friendly when you arrive at the stop unsure of what to do and there's a tram coming. I'm capable of researching online in advance and usually do but I've never felt confident I'm doing the right thing. Not every user would be capable of looking up the info online. Even a sign saying "Tap before getting on and again after getting off" would go a long way.

I'm fairly sure those signs are there. They're certainly on the Luas doors.

The Luas isn't really complicated like.

I do agree a note about time delays on tapping would be helpful. It's happened me, and trial and error led me to find out that you check your card at the ticket machine, not the validator.

Seregwethrin

TheChizler wrote: »

This information should really be printed at the validator or ticket machine. As someone not from Dublin I've found Luas not very user friendly when you arrive at the stop unsure of what to do and there's a tram coming. I'm capable of researching online in advance and usually do but I've never felt confident I'm doing the right thing. Not every user would be capable of looking up the info online. Even a sign saying "Tap before getting on and again after getting off" would go a long way.

Tap before getting on is on some stickers but tapping off... Is that to get some cents back or is that mandatory? That's not there. If mandatory, do they expect 100s of people to queue to tag off at Stephen's Green as lots of people get off there?

There are various scenarios where you change trams without tapping again, or you can change by tapping off and on again.

Inspector also told me if I had never tapped that would be fine. So if you have a break on your journey or change trams, don't tap until... how much time? Who knows this?

It is clearly more than 60 minutes as in my case it was 65 minutes.

If let's say it is 90 minutes, if I am still tagged on when getting on the next tram but on the next tram during the journey if it goes beyond 90 minutes and inspector comes and checks my card, am I gonna get fined or not?

TheChizler

cdeb wrote: »

I'm fairly sure those signs are there. They're certainly on the Luas doors.

The Luas isn't really complicated like.

I do agree a note about time delays on tapping would be helpful. It's happened me, and trial and error led me to find out that you check your card at the ticket machine, not the validator.

Maybe they are but as a very occasional user I've certainly never seen them. Bit late once the tram is there and doors opening to tell someone to tap on!

It is simple once you know but an unfamiliar user doesn't know. Clear signage would help. A cartooney flow-diagram at on the sign could sort a lot out.

Seregwethrin

ED E wrote: »

The validator flagged an issue. You were clearly aware of that fact. You got on anyways instead of checking out whats wrong and getting the next tram (4 min intervals at that time AFAIK).

Anyways, it seems everything is falling on deaf ears here. /Out.

How to check out what's wrong?

I am just learning you can tap your card to the ticket machine. The leapcard machine doesn't mention that too.

What I know is I just paid €2.45 an hour ago.

AlekSmart

ED E wrote: »

Ignorance is no defence. Don't be stupid and try to contest this in court.

The FIRST google result.

How should I Touch On / Off my Leap Card after Luas Cross City opens

There is no change to the way you Touch On / Off your Leap Card on Luas. You should to Touch On before you get on the tram and Touch Off after you get off the tram.

If you are using both lines our best advice is to Touch On and Off for the 1st tram trip and then after you change lines Touch On and Off for the 2nd tram trip. By Touching On/Off for each tram trip you will get the best value fare for your overall journey, you will have a valid ticket and you will have the flexibility to change your mind about the 2nd part of your journey.

You can also Touch On before the 1st tram trip; change trams and Touch Off after the 2nd tram trip but be careful to not Touch Off or On by accident.

A working example of a trip using both lines from Balally to Heuston is outline below. To complete your journey you should;

- Touch On before you board the tram on the Green Line at Balally stop
- Touch Off after you get off the tram on the Green Line at O'Connell - GPO stop
- Touch On before you board the tram on the Red Line at Abbey Street stop
- Touch Off after you get off the tram on the Red Line at Heuston stop

Luas recommends that you Touch On and Off for the 1st tram trip and then after you change lines to Touch On and Off for the 2nd tram trip for the following reasons;

- You will get the best value fare for your overall journey on both lines
- You will have a valid ticket and will not get a Standard Fare of €45 increasing to €100 if not paid in two weeks
- You will have the flexibility to change your mind about or deter the 2nd part of your journey

"Oue BEST advice"......

So,are we to take it that there are other levels of "advice" available from the Operator ?
If so is there a list of such advices available on each platform adjacent to the SCV.

It would be nice to have the resources to take this all the way to the Supreme Court and get the "BESTAdvice" issue sorted out.

This is Dublin they are serving,not Beijing,London,Madrid or some other vast Metropolis,with many differing Zones, Lines,and Modes.

What we have is a small Capital City,which the relevant authorities have rigged to such an extent that their ability to handle complexity can be written on their CV's.

....I wonder what their "Worst" advice is in this regard ?

Dardania

I too think the user experience should be clearer about telling the user to wait until some 90 seconds has elapsed if they want to tag-on again.

AlekSmart

Dardania wrote: »

I too think the user experience should be clearer about telling the user to wait until some 90 seconds has elapsed if they want to tag-on again.

Perhaps the SCV could also be configured to emit a specific "Invalid" beep,as with the Bus machines ?

Seregwethrin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps the SCV could also be configured to emit a specific "Invalid" beep,as with the Bus machines ?

All I got the same type of beep for tag on, off and invalid if I am not mistaken.

verycool

You've two options;

1) pay the fine

2) contest it here: https://payments.luas.ie/onlineexplanation.aspx (link to pdf form on that page too).

Arguing this "90 second" rule with randomers on the internet will get you nowhere.

cdeb

AlekSmart wrote: »

"Oue BEST advice"......

So,are we to take it that there are other levels of "advice" available from the Operator ?

I think the article is very clear that there is another option -

"You can also Touch On before the 1st tram trip; change trams and Touch Off after the 2nd tram trip but be careful to not Touch Off or On by accident."

It then says this is likely to lead to a higher fare. So this is perfectly valid, but more expensive for the passenger, which is why it recommends the other option.

I think that's perfectly reasonable

cdeb

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps the SCV could also be configured to emit a specific "Invalid" beep,as with the Bus machines ?

There is a very different beep for tag on/off and an error

devnull

Seregwethrin wrote: »

What do you do when machine said "invalid"?

First of all the message is not 'invalid' it is the rather more informative 'just validated' which appears on the screen which is made more clearer that it is not a tag on by emitting an error sound as well as a red light.

I'm not quite sure why you tagged off after getting of one tram and switching to another because the time was increased following the open of the Green Line extension to Broombridge for a complete journey so it is more than enough to not be timed out.

Seregwethrin

devnull wrote: »

First of all the message is not 'invalid' it is the rather more informative 'just validated' which appears on the screen which is made more clearer that it is not a tag on by emitting an error sound as well as a red light.

I'm not quite sure why you tagged off after getting of one tram and switching to another because the time was increased following the open of the Green Line extension to Broombridge for a complete journey so it is more than enough to not be timed out.

I don't know the time was increased, it is not written at the stops or at the machines... I know I should tap, I tapped.

gmisk

cdeb wrote: »

There is a very different beep for tag on/off and an error

There is a big red light an invalid message and a lower beep noise...its pretty clear when its invalid.

gmisk

Seregwethrin wrote: »

All I got the same type of beep for tag on, off and invalid if I am not mistaken.

I think you are, very different sounds for an invalid tag as well as a red light and an invalid message on machine.

devnull

Seregwethrin wrote: »

I don't know the time was increased, it is not written at the stops or at the machines... I know I should tap, I tapped.

I'm not quite sure the point you are getting at here?

On one hand you appear to be arguing that you didn't know how it worked in relation to time periods between tag on and tag off because you didn't go looking for it, whilst on the other hand you are saying you thought it was 90 minutes because you did go looking for it?

The smartcard ticketing system on Leap has always been set-up in a way to ensure that people can complete any genuine journey without needing to worry about being timed out so the end user doesn't have to worry about these things.

You had three cues 'just validated' a red light and an error tone that you were not tagged on and you still boarded the tram. I'd simply pay up and put this one down to experience myself as I don't see you getting it overturned.

schemingbohemia

But why didn't the OP tag off at SSG? You get off the LUAS you tag-off, simple.

goingnowhere

It does say 'Just Validated'

The reason being is to avoid multiple accidental tag on/off events if you held the card on the reader and in the bus case it is to stop the card being passed back to be reused again.

Rules are tag on and tag off, you didn't tag off, and the system quite correctly thought you were tagging off at Westmorland and did so

The 90 second lock out for Luas then triggers (you could use the card on a bus or train immediately).

Dardania

goingnowhere wrote: »

It does say 'Just Validated'

The reason being is to avoid multiple accidental tag on/off events if you held the card on the reader and in the bus case it is to stop the card being passed back to be reused again.

Rules are tag on and tag off, you didn't tag off, and the system quite correctly thought you were tagging off at Westmorland and did so

The 90 second lock out for Luas then triggers (you could use the card on a bus or train immediately).

This technically makes sense, given the poor IT connectivity of the bus readers.
Wouldn't it make it easier to understand if the user was told at the Luas reader when they tag off that "If you wish to tag-on again, wait 90 seconds and try again"?

eagle eye

While ignorance is not a defense in the eyes of the law there is an onus on businesses to assist in preventing situations arising. I think if he doesn't pay the fine that this would be struck out in court.










Not everybody Google's things. You do realise that?

Seregwethrin

devnull wrote: »

First of all the message is not 'invalid' it is the rather more informative 'just validated' which appears on the screen which is made more clearer that it is not a tag on by emitting an error sound as well as a red light.

I'm not quite sure why you tagged off after getting of one tram and switching to another because the time was increased following the open of the Green Line extension to Broombridge for a complete journey so it is more than enough to not be timed out.

I am pretty sure it said "INVALID" something or something "INVALID"

verycool

Seregwethrin wrote: »

I am pretty sure it said "INVALID" something or something "INVALID"

This is crucial information. Why didn't you read the display to note what it said exactly?


As I mentioned before... Either pay the fine or contest it with the link I gave earlier. I think we're going in circles here.

devnull

Dardania wrote: »

T"If you wish to tag-on again, wait 90 seconds and try again"?

That's about 4 times longer message than you could possibly fit on the validator screen.

I am pretty sure it said "INVALID" something or something "INVALID"

It's been just validated for ages, and was until last week, maybe it's different on the newer validators though.

Seregwethrin

devnull wrote: »

That's about 4 times longer message than you could possibly fit on the validator screen.

"WAIT 90 SECS"
should have been clear enough

We don't need an article to understand we should wait 90 seconds.

Seregwethrin

verycool wrote: »

This is crucial information. Why didn't you read the display to note what it said exactly?


As I mentioned before... Either pay the fine or contest it with the link I gave earlier. I think we're going in circles here.

Because when I was tapping at the time I wasn't fined and you don't tap that on that machine every time thinking it is going to provide you with a crucial information... The message only appears for couple of seconds.

verycool

Seregwethrin wrote: »

"WAIT 90 SECS"
should have been clear enough

We don't need an article to understand we should wait 90 seconds.

Seregwethrin wrote: »

Because when I was tapping at the time I wasn't fined and you don't tap that on that machine every time thinking it is going to provide you with a crucial information... The message only appears for couple of seconds.

Again, what do you want from randomers on the internet? We're not some secret club of super sleuths that will get you out of this by giving you a definitive answer you can give in court.


You're arguing with the wrong people.



As mentioned, two options.

Seregwethrin

verycool wrote: »

Again, what do you want from randomers on the internet? We're not some secret club of super sleuths that will get you out of this by giving you a definitive answer you can give in court.


You're arguing with the wrong people.

As mentioned, two options.

I am working on those options right now but here is a discussion going on to get ideas and differing opinions. There is nothing wrong with this. I am not expecting anyone here to make this fine go away, relax.