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issues at malahide with DARTs

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    #122
    nowaynever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭nowaynever


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Still a live line.

    good afternoon to yooooooooooouuuuuuuuu.....


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    #123
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Yeah ok, the people made the determination that walking between two broken down trains in the dead of night was preferable to fainting with heat exhaustion and/or pissing themselves.

    The second train wasn't broken-down until it was vandalised by those jumping onto the tracks and could have moved at any time.


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    #124
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    The second train wasn't broken-down until it was vandalised by those jumping onto the tracks and could have moved at any time.

    Indeed, I didn't see the broken window, The doors were forced open in the carriage I was in. I'm sure both trains were perfectly operable but the point is, we all knew neither of them were going anywhere.

    I would like to think that Irish Rail sent someone to help the guy in the wheelchair get off, I severely doubt it considering the driver made off into the night. Probably because his shift had ended, it was about midnight at this stage.


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    #125
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I would like to think that Irish Rail sent someone to help the guy in the wheelchair get off, I severely doubt it considering the driver made off into the night.

    Sure the wheelchair guys are grand sleeping on the train

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/wheelchair-user-left-alone-on-locked-dark-train-in-dublin-station-330155.html


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    #126
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    devnull wrote: »
    Irish rail didn't exactly try and reassure people did they or help them out? But you'd think they were perfect angels according to some here.

    2 wrongs don't make a right.

    Hill Billy never defended or deflected from Irish Rail's inaction. All he's done is advise that when CGCSB thought he was taking assertive control and acting on a good decision, it was purely self interest and potentially risky.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    Yeah ok, the people made the determination that walking between two broken down trains in the dead of night was preferable to fainting with heat exhaustion and/or pissing themselves.

    You know that indifinitly now in hindsight. But at the time, you never knew anything from Irish Rail about what was happening, along with when anything may come from behind you.

    You leave the train and walk the tracks, you do nothing other than put yourself at risk.

    It's like talking to my kid "But I didn't get hurt..." that time.


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    #127
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,682 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Not until you find the reason why.

    There is no reason why a driver should walk off from his train. Yes drivers may have to leave the cab etc to examine the train but walking off isn't acceptable under the circumstances on the night if the information was correct.


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    #128
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    You know that indifinitly now in hindsight. But at the time, you never knew anything from Irish Rail about what was happening, along with when anything may come from behind you.

    We knew the train on front was stopped because a) we were communicating with friends who had got the train before us and b)we knew from the tweets that it wasn't going anywhere and c)we could see it.

    We know the train we were on wasn't going anywhere because a) it couldn't go anywhere because the train on front was not going anywhere b) the driver had already gone home and Irish trains cannot operate on a driverless basis and c) there were already hundreds of people walking the tracks ensuring that those trains would not go anywhere even if the few IR staff at work remained at their posts.

    So we walked in between two trains that we knew, with 100% certainty were not going to move an inch, a risk still, but sure beats waiting with the wheelchair guy until the next morning when some staff might try to help you.
    Dravokivich wrote: »
    You leave the train and walk the tracks, you do nothing other than put yourself at risk.

    It's like talking to my kid "But I didn't get hurt..." that time.

    The only danger I was in was from a slip/trip/fall on the line, Irish Rail is very fortunate that did not occur because I'd be looking for more than my leap fare back.


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    #129
    SexBobomb
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭SexBobomb


    Im sympathetic to the passengers who detrained on this one (to an extent).

    Apparently the carriages were pretty full after the concerts going by the accounts of passengers and my dad has an issue with small spaces he's ok on planes and busy trains as long as they are moving and he feels he's getting to his destination to get out again.
    I shudder to think of him stuck in a stationery carriage for 40 mins with a lot of people at night with no info about how long they would be there, Im sure he would do something drastic to get out . He once kicked out the windscreen of a side loader after the door was jammed and he couldn't open it.
    Walking the tracks is very dangerous never mind at night but I totally understand how people would react badly to the situation and break the emergency exit windows.


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    #130
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Indeed, I didn't see the broken window, The doors were forced open in the carriage I was in. I'm sure both trains were perfectly operable but the point is, we all knew neither of them were going anywhere.

    I would like to think that Irish Rail sent someone to help the guy in the wheelchair get off, I severely doubt it considering the driver made off into the night. Probably because his shift had ended, it was about midnight at this stage.

    You didn't care for him at the time did you so why the fake concern now?


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    #131
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    There is no reason why a driver should walk off from his train. Yes drivers may have to leave the cab etc to examine the train but walking off isn't acceptable under the circumstances on the night if the information was correct.

    You have contradicted yourself there.


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    #132
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    cgcsb wrote: »
    We knew the train on front was stopped because a) we were communicating with friends who had got the train before us and b)we knew from the tweets that it wasn't going anywhere and c)we could see it.

    We know the train we were on wasn't going anywhere because a) it couldn't go anywhere because the train on front was not going anywhere b) the driver had already gone home and Irish trains cannot operate on a driverless basis and c) there were already hundreds of people walking the tracks ensuring that those trains would not go anywhere even if the few IR staff at work remained at their posts.

    So we walked in between two trains that we knew, with 100% certainty were not going to move an inch, a risk still, but sure beats waiting with the wheelchair guy until the next morning when some staff might try to help you.



    The only danger I was in was from a slip/trip/fall on the line, Irish Rail is very fortunate that did not occur because I'd be looking for more than my leap fare back.

    You could look all you want but you wouldn't be successful based on your own negligence.. I hope Irish rail peruse those that caused the damage.


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    #133
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,682 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    You have contradicted yourself there.

    My assumption was based on the poster alleging he just walked off from the train, i.e not to address a mechanical defect on the train or carrying out anything to do with the train. This would be a big deal if it happened.


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    #134
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    My assumption was based on the poster alleging he just walked off from the train, i.e not to address a mechanical defect on the train or carrying out anything to do with the train. This would be a big deal if it happened.

    Assumptions based on an assumption? 😀


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    #135
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The only danger I was in was from a slip/trip/fall on the line

    or being hit by another train if it indeed did move. or something else. which is why you have no business going walk-about on an operational railway.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    Irish Rail is very fortunate that did not occur because I'd be looking for more than my leap fare back.

    it's unlikely you would get anything. you weren't forced to walk on the railway.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #136
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    I think personally that speculation that a train driver just walked away and left the passengers to it and went home as some are trying to portray on here is pretty unbelievable.

    Now I'm not saying he did or didn't get off the train, but whatever you think of Irish Rail and as you know I'm not their biggest fan, I can't see someone just abandoning ship, shrugging their shoulders and going home.


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    #137
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,682 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    devnull wrote: »
    I think personally that speculation that a train driver just walked away and left the passengers to it and went home as some are trying to portray on here is pretty unbelievable.

    Now I'm not saying he did or didn't get off the train, but whatever you think of Irish Rail and as you know I'm not their biggest fan, I can't see someone just abandoning ship, shrugging their shoulders and going home.

    Not going home but even if he had clearance to leave the train for whatever reasons that in itself is a bigger issue. I do hope the speculation is incorrect and a staff member was there for the duration.


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    #138
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    3 people killed in London because they were on the railway when they should not have been.

    Live rail killed them from what it being said internally within the industry.

    You CAN be electrocuted by walking along a DART line. There are return bonds at regular intervals which carry the return current to the power source. These are bare wire in places and carry the return current from a 1500v dc supply at thousands of amps.

    One foot wrong and ZAP! Goodnight Vienna.

    They are the equivalent of the blue wire in a household item.

    That is why you should stay on the train staff or the fire service escort you from it.


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    #139
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Not going home but even if he had clearance to leave the train for whatever reasons that in itself is a bigger issue. I do hope the speculation is incorrect and a staff member was there for the duration.

    Not sure about Ireland, but in the UK, a driver must stay with the train until they are replaced.

    They have the same rules as truck drivers regarding rest periods etc. Even if a driver is able to take a train forward, they cant if it eats into a rest period.


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    #140
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    3 people killed in London because they were on the railway when they should not have been.

    Live rail killed them from what it being said internally within the industry.

    You CAN be electrocuted by walking along a DART line. There are return bonds at regular intervals which carry the return current to the power source. These are bare wire in places and carry the return current from a 1500v dc supply at thousands of amps.

    One foot wrong and ZAP! Goodnight Vienna.

    They are the equivalent of the blue wire in a household item.

    That is why you should stay on the train untold to leave.

    I'm no railway or engineering expert but surely the overhead lines are safe to walk under I would have if they are not safe then how come people can walk under the Luas centenary on the street or cross at level crossings. Also were the people who walked on the off street Luas tracks during the strike taking a big risk?


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    #141
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I'm no railway or engineering expert but surely the overhead lines are safe to walk under I would have if they are not safe then how come people can walk under the Luas centenary on the street or cross at level crossings. Also were the people who walked on the off street Luas tracks during the strike taking a big risk?

    The return current goes through the wheels, into the rails and is drawn at regular intervals into one of the wires above.

    The luas tracks are shielded in rubber and everything is under concrete or tramac for street running.

    On open sections of line, where you have ballast and sleepers, the same risks are there. During the Luas strike, they killed the power because they knew idiots would walk the line.


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    #142
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    ohle2.jpg

    A scan from the basic Network Rail (UK) personal track safety book.

    The big cables (Painted red, top left) are the ones you need to watch. They are only painted red for that pic by the way. Rubber or brake dust brown usually. How is Joe Bloggs going to spot them in the dark??

    Should add that DC does not arc or trip out as easy as AC. That is why the Luas uses DC. If you touch a live wire/line it will cook you inside out slowly.

    The return wires for the Luas are underground is street areas. Electric always takes the path of least resistance, so having them underground on a flooded street makes sense.

    EDIT- The resistances draw the current out the rails.. Tis very complicated, but the system is designed to "Suck" any current from the rails. If you become part of the DART 1500v circuit by standing on a bit.... RIP.

    I have videos of what happens. Would get me banned however.


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    #143
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    You didn't care for him at the time did you so why the fake concern now?

    I'm not the railway company, I don't have a duty of care towards him, and I certainly didn't have the equipment or manpower required to remove him from a train that I am not responsible for, much less move him up the tracks to the next station. If I had taken responsibility for getting him to safety I'd have been liable had anything happened to him. Irish Rail are responsible for him.


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    #144
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    You could look all you want but you wouldn't be successful based on your own negligence.. I hope Irish rail peruse those that caused the damage.

    Oh I'm confident I'd be very successful in light of Irish Rail completely withdrawing themselves and their staff from a situation that they have responsibility to manage.


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    #145
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    end of the road wrote: »
    or being hit by another train if it indeed did move. or something else. which is why you have no business going walk-about on an operational railway.

    I've already explained how we knew that neither train would be going anywhere. There was no point in pissing myself or fainting waiting for some staff to turn up on a Saturday morning.


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    #146
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,149 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    What no one considered is what if the train reversed back to Malahide so it could go around the train at Portmarnock...


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    #147
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Didnt this happen in Dun Laoghaire not so long ago as well. Looking at railforums as well ( what happened in Lewisham - same thing ).

    As someone said up-thread - self de-training is a thing now. - Right or wrong - it's a thing.

    As soon as that train stops in section - a clock starts running , when that clock ends, someone will open the doors and jump down onto the ballast.

    The only way of keeping that clock going and keeping people in the train is real, rapid communication from people who know more than twitter with actual timelines of when stuff will happen. If you don't get that then you're going to keep getting it wrong as to why detraining is happening.

    posting here about it being a live line will not fix the root causes. You're correct it was a live line. But not looking at why it happened is like the dog refusing to look at the poo on the carpet.

    Suggesting up-thread that on-train announcements are a '60s thing is quite frankly asinine.


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    #148
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    What no one considered is what if the train reversed back to Malahide so it could go around the train at Portmarnock...

    That's exactly what IÉ should have done but thought it'd be more fun to abandon the train in the middle of the night and not worry themselves too much about it.


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    #149
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    cgcsb wrote: »
    That's exactly what IÉ should have done but thought it'd be more fun to abandon the train in the middle of the night and not worry themselves too much about it.

    Have you ever tried to reverse a car up a one way street whilst your passengers are jumping out and another car waiting to come into that street?


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    #150
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Have you ever tried to reverse a car up a one way street whilst your passengers are jumping out and another car waiting to come into that street?

    It was the guts of an hour before anyone made an attempt to leave the train. Ample time for a decision to be made, announcements to be made and a reverse maneuver to be carried out.


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    #151
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,682 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    What no one considered is what if the train reversed back to Malahide so it could go around the train at Portmarnock....

    I guess it would be possible but I'm sure there would have been extra specials blocking lines in Malahide. Where is the first crossover if it did wrong road running south of Portmarnock?


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