M40 motorway redesignation and demand management system [works ongoing]

marno21 · 08-06-2018 3:04pm

300 million journeys on the N40 last year. For a city the size of Cork that is astounding

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/300-million-cars-on-South-Ring-Road-in-one-year-300a5809-4f7a-49c5-b063-60adca8f5c6c-ds

zetalambda · 08-06-2018 4:55pm

marno21 wrote: »

300 million journeys on the N40 last year. For a city the size of Cork that is astounding

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/300-million-cars-on-South-Ring-Road-in-one-year-300a5809-4f7a-49c5-b063-60adca8f5c6c-ds

That's a typo. The report from TTI says 0.3 billion km travelled on the road in 2017 and whoever wrote the article misconstrued this. The report indicates that between 80 to 85 thousand are typically using the road daily which would give an annual figure of around 30 million cars. The highest daily count was 21st of December when 103,578 was recorded between Kinsale road and Douglas. Still very impressive numbers.

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/nra-road-network-indicators/TII-National-Roads-Network-Indicators-2017.pdf

Edit: Echo have corrected the error

marno21 · 08-06-2018 5:05pm

zetalambda wrote: »

That's a typo. The report from TTI says 0.3 billion km travelled on the road in 2017 and whoever wrote the article misconstrued this. The report indicates that between 80 to 85 thousand are typically using the road daily which would give an annual figure of around 30 million cars. The highest daily count was 21st of December when 103,578 was recorded between Kinsale road and Douglas.

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/nra-road-network-indicators/TII-National-Roads-Network-Indicators-2017.pdf

Edit: Echo have corrected the error

I did think it was a bit high but with the amount of junction hopping journeys especially around Douglas. 30 million is still high in fairness.

I hadn't realised the TII network indicators were published either. I'll start a thread on that when I've it read.

zetalambda · 08-06-2018 7:50pm

Very high for a city the size of Cork. The M6 motorway in the UK which you'd use if driving from Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham towards London carries 40 million a year, only 10 million more than the SRR.

Kermit.de.frog · 09-06-2018 1:11am

Need to add an additional lane and upgrade junctions?

marno21 · 09-06-2018 3:31am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Need to add an additional lane and upgrade junctions?

Not much point to be honest. Three sections of the N40 (J2-J3, J8-J9 & J10-J11) are limited to 2 lanes due to narrow cross section, elevated Douglas flyover & Jack Lynch tunnel respectively. Widening the sections in between wouldn't be of much use as these sections are limited to 2 lanes in either direction.

Long term solution is the North Ring Road and perhaps an outer link between future M71, existing N71, N27 and M28.

ED E · 09-06-2018 4:23am

marno21 wrote: »

Long term solution is the North Ring Road and perhaps an outer link between future M71, existing N71, N27 and M28.

Only true long term solution is to hammer down single occupancy. More lanes/faster moving lanes just induce more motorists and you're back where you were within 3-5yrs.

Aontachtoir · 09-06-2018 4:38am

marno21 wrote: »

Long term solution is the North Ring Road and perhaps an outer link between future M71, existing N71, N27 and M28.

More like the only solution. If there is no alternative to the tunnel besides going through the city centre, the N/M40 will seize up within a few years.

AugustusMinimus · 09-06-2018 9:45am

The Douglas flyover could be widened to 3 lanes with a bit of concrete. Will almost certainly be required.

marno21 · 09-06-2018 2:34pm

ED E wrote: »

Only true long term solution is to hammer down single occupancy. More lanes/faster moving lanes just induce more motorists and you're back where you were within 3-5yrs.

100%, but I was just addressing the comment in relation to the N40 and widening the road. There needs to be a push on rapid transit and bus corridor improvements within Cork.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

More like the only solution. If there is no alternative to the tunnel besides going through the city centre, the N/M40 will seize up within a few years.

Current policy seems to favour building the M40 NRR from Blarney to Glanmire as part of the M20, e.g. putting more traffic into the tunnel. Tunnel will not be TEN-T compliant post M28 so western arc will likely be progressed then

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The Douglas flyover could be widened to 3 lanes with a bit of concrete. Will almost certainly be required.

Would be interesting to see the reaction locally given the reaction in Rochestown to widening the Sli Carrigdhoun for the N28.

EdgeCase · 10-06-2018 2:33pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The Douglas flyover could be widened to 3 lanes with a bit of concrete. Will almost certainly be required.

It could be but, it would mean encroaching further into Douglas village. I could see that being resisted quite heavily, although there is very little on the outer edge of it other than a road into Douglas shopping centre and clear ground along Douglas court and the old Douglas mills.
There's no way you could widen it on the other side though, so I would assume you'd have to realign the lanes.

The 2-lane tunnel is also a significant bottleneck.

The volume of traffic on the N40 to me indicates a major lack of public transport.
The road needs to be enahanced a bit, but the key aim should be getting more traffic onto public transit from places like Ballincollig and Carrigaline.
Cork needs some tramlines put into service.

Chris_5339762 · 10-06-2018 6:52pm

The Douglas flyover could be widened... notice that the buildings on the southern side have been built well back. Expensive though.

As for the tunnel, you could easily plop another tube or two down.... filter traffic off the upgraded Dunkettle appropriately and you're sorted.

marno21 · 10-06-2018 7:40pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The Douglas flyover could be widened... notice that the buildings on the southern side have been built well back. Expensive though.

As for the tunnel, you could easily plop another tube or two down.... filter traffic off the upgraded Dunkettle appropriately and you're sorted.

Be that as it may, I think a Northern Ring (with possibly a Glanmire-Carrigtwohill leg), a M71-M28 outer link and more importantly improved public transport are better ideas than more tunnels for now

Of course with the port moved you could build a Jack Lynch Bridge.

marno21 · 18-07-2018 9:12pm

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/No-toll-plan-for-Dunkettle-bypass-a572d241-0586-4c02-b93e-2274fece016f-ds

Some updates here on this project from the council.

Des O'Grady should keep his trap shut if he doesn't know what he's talking about. There are no plans to toll the M40, nor is a motorway reclassification a prerequisite to tolling. The N18, N25 and R131 are tolled, none of which are motorways.

marno21 · 01-08-2018 12:25pm

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/free-app-to-alert-drivers-to-traffic-issues-at-corks-dunkettle-interchange-859171.html

TII to publish app to provide drivers with real time information on delays/diversions at the Dunkettle Interchange for the upgrade

Cork Trucker · 09-08-2018 9:59am

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/No-toll-plan-for-Dunkettle-bypass-a572d241-0586-4c02-b93e-2274fece016f-ds

Some updates here on this project from the council.

Des O'Grady should keep his trap shut if he doesn't know what he's talking about. There are no plans to toll the M40, nor is a motorway reclassification a prerequisite to tolling. The N18, N25 and R131 are tolled, none of which are motorways.

All tolling the M40 will do is push traffic back in through the city which is bad enough at rush hour, not to mention with the reintroduction of the Pana car ban on top of it coming back in today.

BikeRacer · 29-08-2018 10:32pm

SeanW wrote: »

...blaming all motorists for an accident caused by a cyclist on what is effectively an Expressway.

Caused by a cyclist? Complete rubbish.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/driver-gets-suspended-sentence-for-killing-cyclist-in-cork-1.3472915

EdgeCase · 30-08-2018 12:52am

Tolling isn't a viable option as there are no alternative routes. It would simply be a money making operation that would cause massive problems on urban streets, residential areas and other minor roads.

I don't think any state body has proposed ir. It's just a rumor that's been circulating and probably an urban myth, at least I hope so!

Updating the N40 to M40 makes a lot of sense as it has identical issues to the M50. It's a distributor motorway / urban ring.

MrDerp · 30-08-2018 11:24am

I can see tolling in the long term, on the section of M40 between N22 and M20. This will be the most difficult and expensive piece of the remaining engineering, and would be a good value proposition for commuters and visitors to skip the tunnel and the Douglas flyover.

It would be a good value proposition for commuters in any of the following movements:
- Northside to Ballincollig/Ovens
- N22/Ballincollig to Hollyhill/Little Island/Carrigtohill
- N71 to Hollyhill
- N27/Togher to Hollyhill/Blarney
- Relief flow from entire northside to N27/Airport during a clock-wise crash between Dunkettle and Douglas.
As well as providing a faster full city bypass for N25 and M8 traffic to access the N22.

A PPP would be a good solution to complete the M40 quicker, possibly covering the expense of a tunnel and grade separations from Poulavone through to existing N40, and taking over maintenance of entire N40 a la M50 concession if possible.

alaimacerc · 30-08-2018 5:32pm

BikeRacer wrote: »

Caused by a cyclist? Complete rubbish.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/driver-gets-suspended-sentence-for-killing-cyclist-in-cork-1.3472915

In the minds of many, cyclists seem to "cause" accidents merely by existing.

I'm also curious as to what's "effectively an expressway". Is this related to something being "practically" a motorway, etc? As in, "fully legal for cyclists to use, but don't like that, so I'll try to imply it's not".

EnzoScifo · 30-08-2018 9:50pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

In the minds of many, cyclists seem to "cause" accidents merely by existing.

I'm also curious as to what's "effectively an expressway". Is this related to something being "practically" a motorway, etc? As in, "fully legal for cyclists to use, but don't like that, so I'll try to imply it's not".

The speed limit at that point is 120km/h which I would consider extremely dangerous for cyclists.

Geogregor · 30-08-2018 10:57pm

I'm far from blaming cyclists for accidents but allowing cycling along HQDC is just ludicrous. It is basically asking for troubles. Bicycles should be banned from roads like that, for their own safety. Full stop.

AugustusMinimus · 31-08-2018 12:18am

Why is it deemed unsafe for cyclist to cycle in the breakdown lane of a rural motorway while it is deemed safe for them to cycle on the 3 lane section of the N40 without any hard shoulder and some of the heaviest traffic in the state.

It makes literally no sense.

Cork Trucker · 02-09-2018 10:29pm

I assume as with all motorways,once this is re-designated the M40 then cyclists can no longer travel on it?

marno21 · 02-09-2018 10:32pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I assume as with all motorways,once this is re-designated the M40 then cyclists can no longer travel on it?

Indeed. One of the benefits of this exercise, no pedestrians/cyclists on a road not designed or safe for them.

BikeRacer · 03-09-2018 4:26pm

I'd focus my concerns more on tractors/diggers/teleporters than this anti cycling whataboutery nonsense tbh. Just passed a tractor-trailer in the driving lane on the Ballincollig bypass doing no more than 40kph, far more dangerous than a cyclist in the hard shoulder ever would be.

marno21 · 03-09-2018 4:45pm

BikeRacer wrote: »

I'd focus my concerns more on tractors/diggers/teleporters than this anti cycling whataboutery nonsense tbh. Just passed a tractor-trailer in the driving lane on the Ballincollig bypass doing no more than 40kph, far more dangerous than a cyclist in the hard shoulder ever would be.

Cyclists are already not permitted in the JLT while tractors are. Slow vehicles are also not permitted on motorways but any tractor that can go above 50km/h can. Cyclists on the Ballincollig bypass have to cross on ramps where traffic is entering the dual carraigeway at 120km/h. That is not safe.

Cyclists have no place on dual carriageways, especially 100km/h ones with frequent off ramps and on ramps, and carrying upto 100k vehicles per day, with long stretches of hard shoulder. This isn't "anti cycling whatabotery nonsense".

AugustusMinimus · 03-09-2018 4:56pm

BikeRacer wrote: »

I'd focus my concerns more on tractors/diggers/teleporters than this anti cycling whataboutery nonsense tbh. Just passed a tractor-trailer in the driving lane on the Ballincollig bypass doing no more than 40kph, far more dangerous than a cyclist in the hard shoulder ever would be.

Having a cyclist on the areas of the SRR without any hard shoulder is lethal.

BikeRacer · 03-09-2018 5:01pm

marno21 wrote: »

Cyclists are already not permitted in the JLT while tractors are. Slow vehicles are also not permitted on motorways but any tractor that can go above 50km/h can. Cyclists on the Ballincollig bypass have to cross on ramps where traffic is entering the dual carraigeway at 120km/h. That is not safe.

Cyclists have no place on dual carriageways, especially 100km/h ones with frequent off ramps and on ramps, and carrying upto 100k vehicles per day, with long stretches of hard shoulder. This isn't "anti cycling whatabotery nonsense".

The first part of your post you mention the legalities of tractors being allowed to be there, while you go on to to give an opinion why cyclists shouldn't be on N roads, even though legally they are.
Do you not see the contradiction you've made?

Also, they don't "have to cross on ramps where traffic is entering the dual carraigeway at 120km/h.", they can go up the hard shoulder to the roundabout and down the opposite hard shoulder.

marno21 · 03-09-2018 5:05pm

BikeRacer wrote: »

The first part of your post you mention the legalities of tractors being allowed to be there, while you go on to to give an opinion why cyclists shouldn't be on N roads, even though legally they are.
Do you not see the contradiction you've made?

Also, they don't "have to cross on ramps where traffic is entering the dual carraigeway at 120km/h.", they can go up the hard shoulder to the roundabout and down the opposite hard shoulder.

This is my last post on this issue.

Cyclists and tractors are both legally allowed on N roads. This is not a normal N road, it's the busiest N road outside the Greater Dublin Area. The dangers of a tractor being hit vs a bicycle being hit by a car at speed on a busy road, for the occupant, are quite different and this should already be clear to you. In my first post, I was explaining that both bicycles and tractors are allowed legally on the road, but that doesn't mean that they should be there from a safety point of view.

They can go up the off ramp and down the other side but that doesn't mean that they do.

DerMutt · 04-09-2018 3:51pm

The latest email update on the N40 ITS:

An Intelligent Transport System is proposed for the N40 Cork South Ring Road area. The system will include closed circuit TV coverage of the road network, permanent electronic Variable Message Signs, provision of real time Journey Time Information etc.
On completion, the system will allow remote monitoring of the entire network, greatly improve incident response times and the availability of real time Journey Time Information will allow motorists to plan their journeys in advance. More detailed information on this system will be circulated in future updates.
The area covered will include the N40 itself, approaches to the N40 including N28 Cork/Ringaskiddy road, N27 Cork City to airport road and N71 Cork/Bandon road. The N8, M8 and N25 approaches to the Dunkettle Interchange will also be covered.
Works to install the necessary communication ducting are already underway. Works to identify ground conditions at the various ITS installation points will be getting underway in the coming days.
In order to minimise disruption to traffic, virtually all works during this Phase will be carried out under night-time working. We expect these Phase 1 Works to be completed early in December 2018

MrDerp · 05-09-2018 10:54am

Good stuff, the VMS will be very helpful in balancing the traffic load. My commute home involves N71-N40-N27 (Link) and it will be a big help to know in advance of issues on the N27, or even on the N40 itself.

They say phase I ready for December, I presume that's just ducting and ground works. No signs ready for Christmas?

EdgeCase · 05-09-2018 11:11am

They should go up fairly quickly. The only big civil work is ducting.

marno21 · 29-09-2018 1:10am

VMS erected just before J10 Mahon on the N40 Westbound last night with "N40 ITS .. EXPECT DELAYS" on it.

Enabling work for the VMS gantries must be imminent.

Kermit.de.frog · 29-09-2018 9:12pm

No word on actual changing to an M road then?

I take it that is off the table so.

marno21 · 29-09-2018 9:16pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No word on actual changing to an M road then?

I take it that is off the table so.

Cork County Council and Atkins currently working on the motorway reclassification project. Hopefully will be underway in 2019

kub · 29-09-2018 10:35pm

marno21 wrote:

Cork County Council and Atkins currently working on the motorway reclassification project. Hopefully will be underway in 2019

I can not understand why it takes so long to replace some road signs from a green background to blue and replace the N on the tarmac with an M.

Or am I missing something?

AugustusMinimus · 29-09-2018 10:58pm

kub wrote: »

I can not understand why it takes so long to replace some road signs from a green background to blue and replace the N on the tarmac with an M.

Or am I missing something?

A lot of consiltatation required given how many users will resultsntly be banned.

Kermit.de.frog · 29-09-2018 11:01pm

I don't think the road is up to standard anyway which is why I think it won't happen (or only a small section can be from the tunnel).

This is the problem when planning is short sighted as it routinely is in Ireland.

marno21 · 30-09-2018 12:05am

kub wrote: »

I can not understand why it takes so long to replace some road signs from a green background to blue and replace the N on the tarmac with an M.

Or am I missing something?

The road needs to be assessed to ensure it meets the criteria for motorway redesignation, and all the paperwork for the redesignation needs to be done. There are some issues that need to be ironed out e.g. Vernon Mount at exit 6.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I don't think the road is up to standard anyway which is why I think it won't happen (or only a small section can be from the tunnel).

This is the problem when planning is short sighted as it routinely is in Ireland.

There is no "standard" really for motorway. There is a stretch of single carriageway motorway in Limerick. There is a motorway planned in Cork with an exit into a housing estate.

To be fair, when the South Ring originally opened in Cork, there was never anyone who thought it would be carrying in excess of 100k vehicles per day. It was also built by the council who didn't have money to burn.

Kermit.de.frog · 30-09-2018 1:05am

This doc (page 79) confirms that motorway status may not be possible due to the road being below standard.

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/N40-Demand-Management-Study-June-2017.pdf

Road needs widening but they don't want to spend the money.

EdgeCase · 30-09-2018 2:40am

There's a huge amount of detail on a plan for tolling the N40 by distance traveled in that document.

That's going to be politically interesting!

marno21 · 30-09-2018 2:51am

EdgeCase wrote: »

There's a huge amount of detail on a plan for tolling the N40 by distance traveled in that document.

That's going to be politically interesting!

All of which will be ignored for political reasons

Tolling the N40 isn't an option until at least the North Ring and the M71-M28 link are built. By that stage it'll likely be not worth pursuing

EdgeCase · 30-09-2018 8:56pm

I'd argue a lot of the M50 falls well below motorway standards too though. I'd say it could be passed, particularly if it's limited to 100km/h for most of its older parts.

Chris_5339762 · 30-09-2018 9:53pm

I think it could be too. Vernon mount is a bit of a problem, you could just stick the end of motorway signs here https://goo.gl/maps/zei2EcfJdLw, but then you can't access Vernon Mount without going on the M40. Is that the biggest deal in the world though? Is it a deal breaker?

AugustusMinimus · 01-10-2018 7:45am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I think it could be too. Vernon mount is a bit of a problem, you could just stick the end of motorway signs here https://goo.gl/maps/zei2EcfJdLw, but then you can't access Vernon Mount without going on the M40. Is that the biggest deal in the world though? Is it a deal breaker?

Access to Vernon amount could be rerouted to the gate above the Circle K Service Station on the Grsnge Road. There’s an old access road up there.

loyatemu · 01-10-2018 9:37am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

A lot of consiltatation required given how many users will resultsntly be banned.

how many users though
-cyclists & pedestrians? (it's patently unsuitable and not designed to accommodate them anyway).
-Farm machinery? hardly a huge issue given where it is.
-Learner drivers? they're not supposed to be driving without a qualified driver anyway.

hans aus dtschl · 01-10-2018 10:02am

loyatemu wrote: »

how many users though
-cyclists & pedestrians? (it's patently unsuitable and not designed to accommodate them anyway).
-Farm machinery? hardly a huge issue given where it is.
-Learner drivers? they're not supposed to be driving without a qualified driver anyway.

1.
It may not have been designed CORRECTLY to accommodate pedestrians and cyclists, but as all have said the original design should have been, in an ideal world. Probably via designation of an alternate route or greenway etc.
2.
You'd be surprised how much farm machinery goes through the tunnel. The alternate route is to bring farm machinery through the city or on the ferry.
3.
Learner drivers can't just be banned because of an unrelated fact/regulation!

Across all of the above three groupings the same simple question applies: what is the alternative route? And presently the answer is that the alternative route is inappropriate.

I'm not a fan of this approach of "ban other road users so cars can get there faster". It's short-sighted and bound to failure. Frequently there's little consideration given to vehicles other than cars. We can do better. And I say all this as someone who uses a car as their primary mode of transport.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This doc (page 79) confirms that motorway status may not be possible due to the road being below standard.
http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/N40-Demand-Management-Study-June-2017.pdf

Reading this document is relatively entertaining, as they state that banning cyclists and pedestrians from the N40 will increase the number of people using public transport, cycling and walking.

AugustusMinimus · 01-10-2018 10:04am

loyatemu wrote: »

how many users though
-cyclists & pedestrians? (it's patently unsuitable and not designed to accommodate them anyway).
-Farm machinery? hardly a huge issue given where it is.
-Learner drivers? they're not supposed to be driving without a qualified driver anyway.

I agree with all your points but due process needs to be followed.

EnzoScifo · 02-10-2018 12:00am

loyatemu wrote: »

-Farm machinery? hardly a huge issue given where it is.
.

You'd be surprised at the amount of times I've seen tractors coast along at 50kmph in the middle lane of N40 Eastbound before the Kinsale Road flyover in the evening rush hour.

M40 motorway redesignation and demand management system [works ongoing]

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