When did parents stop parenting?

Buckfast W · 05-06-2018 08:23PM

jobbridge4life wrote:

For part of my childhood I grew up in a thoroughly middle class housing estate. My road was a through road to the second phase of the development, but it was also a playground. We played football, we danced in the road, we ran across it in a heartbeat playing hide and go seek, tip the can etc. An underground carpark in an a complex, seems like an infinitely safer option to me?

The problem with an underground car park is there's zero supervision, if you're parents we're looking out the window they could probably see you.

LirW · 05-06-2018 08:23PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

You don't need to (and arguably shouldn't) look to far-east Asia for livable family apartments. Barcelona is in my experience an excellent example of what is achievable in even a modest population city like Dublin.

I think it goes a little bit hand in hand. Ireland's traditional thing was to live in a house with garden, period. This is what you always aspired to. It never came so far that apartments were seen as feasible long-term options for families. So there never was a market and builders didn't have to respond to this. So they kept building apartments for a different demographic. Now the reality hits, Dublin is too expensive, it turns out that the whole city planning is for the bin, families face homelessness and they now move to apartments that were never built for families in the first place because the classic 3bed house isn't affordable. And because it's a really sour thing for many and the celtic tiger craziness happened, people don't see why to trust builders and refuse to look into apartment living with a family.
It simply has never been done successfully here so there are no pro-examples.

On the mainland Europe housing estates like here aren't built, it's all about modern mid density apartment living and it sells a lot better than houses. People don't want to maintain a garden (and to be fair, many people here don't want that either even though everyone wants a garden, slabbed and decked garden everywhere), but they want their outside space, so spacious enough balconies, so you can keep it simple, do a bit of gardening, whatever you want, best of both worlds. You don't need to do other maintenance work yourself, the cost for the management companies are low and they aren't up their own ar5es and usually do their work well enough.
And well kept communal green spaces, the reality of new blocks is far away from grey skyscrapers. There is definitely a response to what people want, but Irish folks don't want apartment living and aren't willing to try and in fairness I can't blame them for the mess-ups that happened during the tiger.
But it's more than time to move on from that.

the_syco · 05-06-2018 08:25PM

Blanchy90 wrote: »

being on the ground floor

To hell with that!

jobbridge4life wrote: »

An underground carpark in an a complex, seems like an infinitely safer option to me?

For the cars, no. For the kids; it'll be darker than outside, so if playing hide and go seek, more of a chance of a kid getting knocked by a car. If playing ball games, more of a chance of them hitting a car.

JupiterKid · 05-06-2018 08:28PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

You don't need to (and arguably shouldn't) look to far-east Asia for livable family apartments. Barcelona is in my experience an excellent example of what is achievable in even a modest population city like Dublin.

Not even as far as a Barcelona - Amsterdam (distance 470km) has superbly planned and built apartments designed for families and children. Two good friends live in such places with their young children.

But then, the Dutch do good urban planning. We Irish do not.:( The Irish may well still want their 3 or 4 bed suburban/ commuter town semi, but the reality is that for many or not most it simply isnt affordable and will no longer be so.

There is a paradigm shift in Irish housing. Irish families will have to get used to living in apartments, whether they like it or not. Developers will have to cater to the changing housing market by providing family friendly apartment developments. Myself and others working in the housing arena were calling for this for over 15 years but sweet FA was done about it. To date they have built tiny, often shoddy blocks of shoeboxes with no thinking gone into communal space, soundproofing or storage.

Actually, the early purpose built apartment schemes in Dublin of the 1970s and early 80s were of a far better standard than most of what was thrown up in the “Celtic Tiger”.

But it looks like the housing affordability crisis will force the Irish developer to change his ways, whether he likes it or not. People will demand it.

iamwhoiam · 05-06-2018 08:39PM

the_syco wrote: »

To hell with that!

For the cars, no. For the kids; it'll be darker than outside, so if playing hide and go seek, more of a chance of a kid getting knocked by a car. If playing ball games, more of a chance of them hitting a car.

And poor air I would imagine .It can't be a healthy environment for kids

05-06-2018 09:46PM

Buckfast W wrote: »

Yeah that's not always the case when I'm coming to a blind corner to turn up the ramp to exit the underground and the kids are flying down because they're using for there scooters, even if I stopped the car and inched forward they can still come down at speed and seriously hurt themselves because they have no way to see where they're going, but sure it's my fault because I'm in a car and I'm obviously being insensitive to the needs of the other residents that feel an underground car park with all its dangers is an appropriate place for their children to play.

Is that answer sufficient enough or would you like to throw in another smart remark?

It's your fault if you hit a child, or anyone else with your car. The law requires you to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. If they hit you, that's their problem. If you hit a child, it's your problem.

Blanchy90 · 05-06-2018 09:51PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If the kids really are that young, then it's potentially neglect. You, and the randoms on here, aren't qualified to decide if it is or not. Phone Tulsa, and make it their problem. Details here.

Well last night at half 9 there was one kid (5-7years) out alone with her sister in a pram who is 7 months old. They were outside in the common area in front of their apartment and couldn't be seen by any parents, not that the parents ever come out to check on them anyway.

I'd be hesitant to report someone for neglect but this doesn't seem right to me

Buckfast W · 05-06-2018 10:11PM

AndrewJRenko wrote:

It's your fault if you hit a child, or anyone else with your car. The law requires you to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. If they hit you, that's their problem. If you hit a child, it's your problem.

And what if there's no way to see that the way is clear without physically getting out of the car? Anywho an underground car park is no place for a child to be playing unsupervised, full stop. But feel free to contradict me

05-06-2018 10:14PM

Buckfast W wrote: »

And what if there's no way to see that the way is clear without physically getting out of the car?

I don't recall ever having that experience in 30+ years of driving. What kind of layout prevents you from seeing what's in front of car?

listermint · 05-06-2018 10:19PM

Tinley Skinny Self-preservation wrote: »

Why does someone being in the minority mean they have fewer rights to consideration?

Who said that ? I was responding that someone said they were in the majority so had more rights.

Get it together bells

Buckfast W · 05-06-2018 10:25PM

AndrewJRenko wrote:

I don't recall ever having that experience in 30+ years of driving. What kind of layout prevents you from seeing what's in front of car?

It's called a blindspot, believe it or not I haven't development the ability to see around corners but I'm sure with your 30+ years your a driving master

05-06-2018 10:48PM

Buckfast W wrote: »

It's called a blindspot, believe it or not I haven't development the ability to see around corners but I'm sure with your 30+ years your a driving master

I find that driving slowly and turning the steering wheel usually does it for me. A blindspot in my experience is a location around your car that you can't see from the driving position, usually at either rear corner of the car. I can't think of any kind of corner that yo ucan't see where your going by just going slowly.

whisky_galore · 06-06-2018 08:16AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

But it looks like the housing affordability crisis will force the Irish developer to change his ways, whether he likes it or not. People will demand it.

Haha.

You'll get any old concrete box to live in, like it or not. And pay well for it.
Bunch of fcuking chancers.

Buckfast W · 06-06-2018 08:40AM

AndrewJRenko wrote:

I find that driving slowly and turning the steering wheel usually does it for me. A blindspot in my experience is a location around your car that you can't see from the driving position, usually at either rear corner of the car. I can't think of any kind of corner that yo ucan't see where your going by just going slowly.

I'd say a blind spot would be, "an area where a person's view is obstructed" but sure don't let a dictionary definition get in the way. Just by going slowly around a corner doesn't guarantee that something won't hit into you or pass in front of you, like you know a child that's under the age of 5 who's completely unsupervised.

I'm just astonished that you think an underground carpark is an appropriate place for children to play.

Wanderer78 · 06-06-2018 08:47AM

Maybe there's something wrong with the fundamental design of our economic systems, maybe the fact the cost of living is slowly rising, and wages have become somewhat stagnant or not rising fast enough to meet this rising cost of living, effectively forcing both parents to work, many full time, maybe this is having a detrimental effect on functioning of our society, in particular, kids behaviour?

Mrs OBumble · 06-06-2018 09:26AM

Blanchy90 wrote: »

Well last night at half 9 there was one kid (5-7years) out alone with her sister in a pram who is 7 months old. They were outside in the common area in front of their apartment and couldn't be seen by any parents, not that the parents ever come out to check on them anyway.

I'd be hesitant to report someone for neglect but this doesn't seem right to me

Why would you be hesitant? Is neglecting kids ok? Were industrial schools ok too?

If i came upon a 7 month old in the care of a 5 year old I'd be calling the guards.

seamus · 06-06-2018 09:34AM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Why do Irish estates and apartment buildings have zero facilities?

We have a weird contradiction in Ireland - we complain that there's nothing for kids to do, no facilities.

But if anyone ever proposes building public facilities for kids such as playgrounds, people oppose them on the basis that they attract anti-social behaviour and "sure, they'll be wrecked in a month".

We've thankfully gotten better at this; our parks are slowly becoming more than just fields with a couple of pitches in them, and many now have good playgrounds. But there is still considerable resistance to any facilities.

In my area, there's a "community council" who speak to the local authority on behalf of the whole area. For years they've blocked proposals to build playgrounds, benches and bins on the basis that they attract anti-social behaviour and become an eyesore.

The community has started to push back and we've got a couple of bins and benches, but despite having the largest primary school in the country and oodles of green space, there isn't a single public playground or children's facility in the area except for some football and GAA pitches.

Surprise, surprise the council is made up almost exclusively of people who are 60+ and have been resisting the same improvements since the 1980s.

As a country we need to shed this self-hatred that makes us believe that everything public will be wrecked or "robbed if it's not nailed down". But people continue to oppose public facilities for kids/teens and then complain about kids/teens hanging around and making noise.

iamwhoiam · 06-06-2018 09:45AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why would you be hesitant? Is neglecting kids ok? Were industrial schools ok too?

If i came upon a 7 month old in the care of a 5 year old I'd be calling the guards.

So would I . Its neglect of a minor and I would stress I thought maybe something had happened the parent because they were nowhere to be seen

whisky_galore · 06-06-2018 09:52AM

seamus wrote: »

As a country we need to shed this self-hatred that makes us believe that everything public will be wrecked or "robbed if it's not nailed down". But people continue to oppose public facilities for kids/teens and then complain about kids/teens hanging around and making noise.

It's reality, there's people here that have little respect for anything laid out for them or others. If it can't be robbed it'll be smashed, written on, or set fire to.

You can have these things but they need to be maintained, monitored by cctv or whatever and locked up at night.

Oh and don't forget our compo culture.... little Johnny hurts himself on the swings, no swings for anyone then.

_Brian · 06-06-2018 09:54AM

This is the joy of high density living that I see called for so much.

When you rack and stack families like battery chickens these problems are a certainty.

I’d imagine some compromise on both sides is required. OP needs to understand that kids need to play and play is sometimes noisy and that’s fine, but the kids do need to be shown boundaries and I’d agree no 5yo should be out at 9:30 on a school night. But we get such little good weather rules are stretched when it does come.

We live in the sticks and it’s great. An acre of ground and our kids have free run, make as much noise as they want and no pesky neighbors to bother us.

whisky_galore · 06-06-2018 09:59AM

_Brian wrote: »

This is the joy of high density living that I see called for so much.

When you rack and stack families like battery chickens these problems are a certainty.

I’d imagine some compromise on both sides is required. OP needs to understand that kids need to play and play is sometimes noisy and that’s fine, but the kids do need to be shown boundaries and I’d agree no 5yo should be out at 9:30 on a school night. But we get such little good weather rules are stretched when it does come.

We live in the sticks and it’s great. An acre of ground and our kids have free run, make as much noise as they want and no pesky neighbors to bother us.

** waits for one-off-housing backlash **

_Brian · 06-06-2018 10:03AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

** waits for one-off-housing backlash **

Own house on own farm that we actively farm. No backlash needed

seamus · 06-06-2018 10:04AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

It's reality, there's people here that have little respect for anything laid out for them or others. If it can't be robbed it'll be smashed, written on, or set fire to.

No different to any other country. This is exactly the unrealistic self-deprecation I'm talking about.
However, the extent to which this happens is tiny. There are playgrounds all over the place that have stayed in good nick for years, despite being in "rough" areas. Once they're maintained, they get mostly left alone.

Irish people are not anti-social, vandalising scumbags. We need to stop talking ourselves down.

Oh and don't forget our compo culture.... little Johnny hurts himself on the swings, no swings for anyone then.

That's not as widespread as the media would have you believe tbh.

Playground equipment comes with a certain expectation of risk, and a compensation claim will fail unless the equipment can be shown to be inherently dangerous or faulty.
The actual cost of and number of claims is pretty small, because the majority of people are reasonable don't claim when their kids bang their knee.

"Insurance", "Compo culture" are just blanket rhetoric thrown out when people just don't want facilities to be built.

WHIP IT! · 06-06-2018 10:05AM

Blanchy90 wrote: »

Bit of a rant haha

Absolutely sick of all the kids out playing in the common area in our apartment block.The rules of the complex are that children must be supervised at all times, no ball games at all and children must be quiet as not to disturb everyone in the complex.

I have no problem with kids playing but these kids have no manners at all. They are constantly running around screaming all day and into the night. There's kinds as young as 3-5 out completely unsupervised out till 9:30pm and there's regularly toddlers out with older siblings (5-7)

I don't know how the parents let the kids out like that, the complex has a gate but there's always people coming in and out so anything could happen.

Also no 5 year old should be out playing at 9:30pm on a school night.

End rant haha

Sounds absolutely horrific. No ball games?? F*ck off...

whisky_galore · 06-06-2018 10:14AM

seamus wrote: »

No different to any other country. This is exactly the unrealistic self-deprecation I'm talking about.
However, the extent to which this happens is tiny. There are playgrounds all over the place that have stayed in good nick for years, despite being in "rough" areas. Once they're maintained, they get mostly left alone.

Irish people are not anti-social, vandalising scumbags. We need to stop talking ourselves down.

That's not as widespread as the media would have you believe tbh.

Playground equipment comes with a certain expectation of risk, and a compensation claim will fail unless the equipment can be shown to be inherently dangerous or faulty.
The actual cost of and number of claims is pretty small, because the majority of people are reasonable don't claim when their kids bang their knee.

"Insurance", "Compo culture" are just blanket rhetoric thrown out when people just don't want facilities to be built.

Think you're a bit naïve. You go into many a toilet in pubs, restaurants etc you'll find if there's not a close watch on them, the locks and doors get broken NOT normal wear and tear breakage either, coat hangers broken off, equipment vandalised, mirrors broken or scratched upon.

I saw newly installed exercise equipment in a public park with a piece of rubbish flaming away merrily after the jokers had run off. And this isn't in a rough area either. I was warned not to park there overnight as a car got burnt out there.

Buckfast W · 06-06-2018 10:14AM

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Sounds absolutely horrific. No ball games?? F*ck off...

What about the neighbors that don't want to hear a football banging off a wall for 6 hours a day 7 days a week?

WHIP IT! · 06-06-2018 10:25AM

Buckfast W wrote: »

What about the neighbors that don't want to hear a football banging off a wall for 6 hours a day 7 days a week?

What about them? When did society take this vow of silence? I'd much rather kids out kicking a football than being stuck indoors in front of small screens honing social inadequacy - or worse, outside getting into trouble because they're not allowed kick a football around!

I will point out something I have noticed in recent years that kind of ties in with the OP - parents are far less likely to scold kids than they used to be. I'm 36, when I was a kid, if you were acting the maggot and a nearby adult saw you they'd let you have it - my own mother was famous for it!

These days, there's a definite reluctance on the part of adults to pull kids up when they misbehave in the absence of their own parents.

Buckfast W · 06-06-2018 10:33AM

WHIP IT! wrote: »

What about them? When did society take this vow of silence? I'd much rather kids out kicking a football than being stuck indoors in front of small screens honing social inadequacy - or worse, outside getting into trouble because they're not allowed kick a football around!

I will point out something I have noticed in recent years that kind of ties in with the OP - parents are far less likely to scold kids than they used to be. I'm 36, when I was a kid, if you were acting the maggot and a nearby adult saw you they'd let you have it - my own mother was famous for it!

These days, there's a definite reluctance on the part of adults to pull kids up when they misbehave in the absence of their own parents.

No one is asking for a vow of silence, if people wan't to have kids that's all well and fine but look after them and make sure your little darlings aren't constantly annoying everyone else, in my case why should 5-6 kids be able to disrupt the lives of the other 300+ people in the complex?

inforfun · 06-06-2018 10:42AM

Blanchy90 wrote: »

The rules of the complex are that children must be supervised at all times, no ball games at all and children must be quiet as not to disturb everyone in the complex.

Only way that works is to make the complex child free.

There should be more child free things in life. Flights, holidays, restaurants, apartment complexes.
Not even so much because of the kids but because of their parents who cant or won't control them.

WHIP IT! · 06-06-2018 10:43AM

Buckfast W wrote: »

No one is asking for a vow of silence, if people wan't to have kids that's all well and fine but look after them and make sure your little darlings aren't constantly annoying everyone else, in my case why should 5-6 kids be able to disrupt the lives of the other 300+ people in the complex?

By kicking a football? What did you think "complex living" would be like before you moved in?

When did parents stop parenting?

Comments