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Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

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    #5642
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Water John wrote: »
    Her boast is, that she delayed the Childrens Ref implemantation by two and a half years. Will Mattie walk by her side again?
    No doubt, and being represented by the Iona Institute's solicitor of choice, Kevin Brophy.


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    #5643
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Taytoland wrote: »
    I'm not a Catholic. I'm just not a hypocrite. If Irish people hate the Catholic church then stop associating with it. It's been my dream to see the influence of Rome rule collapse for many years. I just detest the pretend Catholics still using it's services.

    Well you said your from east Belfast so statistically you wouldn't be Catholic, but since you think abortion should be used to generate a pure white race well that's something else besides religion unless your religion supports this, I don't think so.
    More lies. If you have such control that is very plausible.


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    #5644
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,027 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Water John wrote: »
    Ah, FFS
    http://www.thejournal.ie/joanna-jordan-ref-4051212-Jun2018/

    She's out to act the maggot again. We have a system that let's any fool, hold up clear decisions.
    Brace yourselves too, this c*nt will have all $orts of foreign interest in her appeal.

    I'm very interested to see on what grounds she challenges though; Supreme Court already made precedent in the 2015 ruling vs. the government promoting a certain outcome, I can't at the moment imagine what her legal argument is.


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    #5645
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    Just in relation to your point it's worth noting that for every women and child who suffered at the hands of the church there was probably a mother, father, brother, sister, cousin, friend and neighbor who left it happen. Let's not kid ourself into thinking the church are the only ones culpable, society in general needs to take a good hard look at itself.

    Indeed, there is a degree of blame.
    But when you fear the parish priest and he tells you to send your daughter to a home many people will comply. Of course not all will, but many did.

    Locally I know of at least one story where the mother told the priest to mind his own business, but she was very head strong.

    Even in my own extended family we have a story of the priest telling a mother that because her son was leaving the priesthood she needed to destroy all photos of him and he was never to return to the community. (she never did destroy them and he did eventually come back from the UK)

    The point being is that local priest had power, if you had a business then a few words from the priest could ruin that business. This did happen.

    Its often hard for us to realise the massive power they had and the culture of shame and fear created by the church.


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    #5646
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,027 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Taytoland wrote: »
    DubInMeath wrote:
    Well you said your from east Belfast so statistically you wouldn't be Catholic, but since you think abortion should be used to generate a pure white race well that's something else besides religion unless your religion supports this, I don't think so.
    More lies. If you have such control that is very plausible.
    Plausible based on what, exactly?

    Dumbass racists that have pushed this narrative in the past (that I would urge you not to associate with) have been quick to point out, for instance, the founder of Planned Parenthood and/or the number of African-american abortions in the US. Puzzling though, since census data continues to show that all minorities are growing demographics in the US while the white majority continues to shrink: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States

    So I'm not sure on what grounds this is 'plausible' or happening. Just racist scaremongering that makes no sense: surely, in a matter of personal choice no one can force a minority woman to abort her child. But sure it makes people feel like they're supporting the cause to yell "genocide! Holocaust!"


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    #5647
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    Overheal wrote: »
    Brace yourselves too, this c*nt will have all $orts of foreign interest in her appeal.

    I'm very interested to see on what grounds she challenges though; Supreme Court already made precedent in the 2015 ruling vs. the government promoting a certain outcome, I can't at the moment imagine what her legal argument is.
    Kathy Sinnott helped her get funds last time
    "Her own resources were small but her legal action was funded by donations from various sources. Some €18,000 had been received after she and former MEP Kathy Sinnott emailed their contacts and an advert was placed in the Catholic Voice ."
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/unlawfully-funded-yes-campaign-influenced-children-s-referendum-result-court-told-1.1363854


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    #5648
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,027 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    spookwoman wrote: »
    Kathy Sinnott helped her get funds last time
    "Her own resources were small but her legal action was funded by donations from various sources. Some €18,000 had been received after she and former MEP Kathy Sinnott emailed their contacts and an advert was placed in the Catholic Voice ."
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/unlawfully-funded-yes-campaign-influenced-children-s-referendum-result-court-told-1.1363854

    Oh, to fight abortion legalization, in Ireland? She could get millions from US interests at the drop of a hat.


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    #5649
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,535 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    volchitsa wrote: »
    This is a disgusting allegation.

    Can you suggest any reason why a family would knowingly let its children be molested by priests?

    People didn't believe it was possible for a priest to do something evil. Because they were brainwashed by the church. Not because they didn't care about their children.

    Maybe read the post first before twisting it into something else. The discussion was in relation to mother and baby homes.


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    #5650
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Taytoland wrote: »
    More lies. If you have such control that is very plausible.

    Really so you were just being sarcastic I suppose
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107138605&postcount=4719


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    #5651
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    Maybe read the post first before twisting it into something else. The discussion was in relation to mother and baby homes.

    The reasons that families placed their daughters in the mother and baby homes was due to the social stigma influenced by the church. ****ty I know but the family would have been orchestrated by most of their neighbors etc.
    In some cases where fathers were left with the children due to the death of the mother the church actively looked to have children taken into “care”, similar enough to when the father died or abandoned their family.


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    #5652
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    volchitsa wrote: »
    This is a disgusting allegation.
    Can you suggest any reason why a family would knowingly let its children be molested by priests?
    People didn't believe it was possible for a priest to do something evil. Because they were brainwashed by the church. Not because they didn't care about their children.

    I took the meaning not as you did but speaking of after the abuse?

    While they did not allow if that is what you mean, if they did try to report it they were not believed and the family would suffer.
    Certainly no one believed the priest never did evil. They all knew! Just not wise to accuse is all. And many protected the children as best as they could. One grandmother who cleaned the church, warned her grandchildren not to go into one side f the three door confessional. "as the priest can get at you there."
    No brainwashing.


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    #5653
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    [QUOTE=DubInMeath;107173291]The reasons that families placed their daughters in the mother and baby homes was due to the social stigma influenced by the church.
    In some cases where fathers were left with the children due to the death of the mother the church actively looked to have children taken into “care”, similar enough to when the father died or abandoned their family.[/QUOTE]

    Not entirely true. eg one man on Great Blasket had 12 children and when his wife died he could not look after them so he handed them over to the homes.
    It was his decision. What choice did he have?


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    #5654
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    Maybe read the post first before twisting it into something else. The discussion was in relation to mother and baby homes.

    Thank you. I have responded separately.


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    #5655
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Not entirely true. eg one man on Great Blasket had 12 children and when his wife died he could not look after them so he handed them over to the homes.
    It was his decision. What choice did he have?

    Sure some may hand over their kids believing that they were doing the best for them, didn’t work out that way for a lot however did it?


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    #5656
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    end of the road wrote: »
    and what about society's part in it? society were happy for the church to take care of these women and children. families put these people into homes and shunned them. the church's behaviour was contemptible but guess what, apart from the other children of these families who are completely innocent, society was not blameless.

    or perhapse most people in ireland aren't actually catholic these days?
    i have no time for the church myself but if following the teachings of a religion is being out of touch then perhapse people are just no longer interested in being part of that specific religion and they should therefore stop using the church when it suits them.
    yet people will put catholic down on the census, and use the church when it suits them for weadings, christenings, communions, confirmations, funerals." end quote

    It has been posted earlier in the thread that many "catholics" voted for repeal knowing they were voting against one of the core commandments. The utmost in hypocrisy . They call them cafeteria catholics. Far better if they stop using the name. Social catholics Meaningless .


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    #5657
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Graces7 wrote: »
    I took the meaning not as you did but speaking of after the abuse?

    While they did not allow if that is what you mean, if they did try to report it they were not believed and the family would suffer.
    Certainly no one believed the priest never did evil. They all knew! Just not wise to accuse is all. And many protected the children as best as they could. One grandmother who cleaned the church, warned her grandchildren not to go into one side f the three door confessional. "as the priest can get at you there."
    No brainwashing.

    No plenty didn’t believe that a priest would do any evil. If everyone knew that they were as you said there would have been no issue reporting it, unless the majority of the population were religiously brainwashed.


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    #5658
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Wrongway1985 wrote: »
    You don't get it they weren't cheering abortion or maybe that's the way you prefer to see it. They were cheering relief, relief that in such difficult circumstances Ireland agreed unanimously we'll respect and aid what people deem best for themselves. I personally had a few scoops that night thoroughly enjoyable as the outcome.

    The cheering was appallingly inappropriate and offensive. What was being voted on WAS abortion. Sounded like a football crowd.


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    #5659
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,027 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    [/quote] dear. [/quote].


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    #5660
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    No plenty didn’t believe that a priest would do any evil. If everyone knew that they were as you said there would have been no issue reporting it, unless the majority of the population were religiously brainwashed.

    You need to look up what brainwashing is and how it is achieved.

    Many did report; please read the Ryan and Murphy reports in detail

    The Church had great social power. They controlled health care, education, which child went to a punitive home etc.

    Everyone knew. No one dared rock the boat any more then they do now in other areas.


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    #5661
    GoneHome
    Registered Users Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭GoneHome


    We're a couple in our 40s with no kids, we both voted yes, just because why should we take away the choice from our young nieces on what they should do, the Pro-life lobby would seriously want to get over themselves at this stage, the nation has decided so leave it at that


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    #5662
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    I don’t think the cheering was half as offensive as people knocking on doors of homes unsolicited calling people’ murderers for voting yes and spewing lies, or campaigning with graphic images outside maternity hospitals and schools.

    It was a historic day, and women were happy that they finally had a say over their own body. It’s sad that that wasn’t a given and it’s sad that people were so excited about actually having rights. I wouldn’t like to think people were cheering about how many abortions they plan on having, because the 8th amendment is about so much more than abortion


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    #5663
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,027 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Graces7 wrote: »

    The cheering was appallingly inappropriate and offensive. What was being voted on WAS abortion. Sounded like a football crowd.

    Really? Vuvuzelas and Ole' Ole' Ole' ? :rolleyes: such contrived outrage.


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    #5664
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,027 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Graces7 wrote: »
    You need to look up what brainwashing is and how it is achieved.
    Oh goodness. :rolleyes:

    Brainwashing need not be 'mind control', brain rays, drugs, HAARP, poisoned well water, or anything of the sort.
    brain·wash
ˈbrānˌwôSH,ˈbrānˌwäSH/Submit
verb

gerund or present participle: brainwashing

make (someone) adopt radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible pressure.

"the organization could brainwash young people"
synonyms:	indoctrinate, condition, reeducate, persuade, influence, propagandize, inculcate
"the evidence is compelling that these cult members were indeed brainwashed"
    Certainly, the Catholic Church in Ireland through forceful and systematic pressure exerted serious controls over what the people of Ireland heard and saw and were allowed to express and to discuss. In a word, it was certainly brainwashing, anyone who spoke out was a sinner, an outcast, they could be ostracized by society, have their businesses boycotted, even have agents of the state involved on their behest. Members of the church are also inherently deputized to convert others to the faith, call out and shame others for sin, report things to the church via confession etc. and the priesthood were in an immeasurable position of power, knowing every person's dirty little secrets by design:
    Graces7 wrote: »
    The Church had great social power. They controlled health care, education, which child went to a punitive home etc.

    See if this sounds like some steps that the Church could and did take against people, and is systematically designed to do so:
    1. Assault on Identity (You don't know yourself only Jesus does etc.)
    2. Guilt (Original Sin, etc. etc.)
    3. Self-Betrayal (Acknowledge your sins)
    4. Breaking Point (Save me, Jesus, etc.)
    5. Leniency (Jesus/The Church offers salvation)
    6. Compulsion to confess (QED)
    7. Channeling of guilt (QED)
    8. Releasing of guilt (QED)
    9. Progress and harmony (QED)
    10. Final confession and rebirth (Ding Ding Ding)

    No mind control raybeams required. But, it was most definitely Brainwashing, the RCC excels in the practice and has done so for centuries.


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    #5665
    LionelNashe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭LionelNashe


    Water John wrote: »
    Ah, FFS
    http://www.thejournal.ie/joanna-jordan-ref-4051212-Jun2018/

    She's out to act the maggot again. We have a system that let's any fool, hold up clear decisions.

    This shows why Dublin City Council were correct not to fund the book festival with Una Mullally & other speakers who were advocating a 'yes' vote. If they had funded it, it could have been grounds for people to challenge and delay the result.


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    #5666
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,002 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GoneHome wrote: »
    the Pro-life lobby would seriously want to get over themselves at this stage, the nation has decided so leave it at that

    so what? the nation decided to implement the 8th in 1983 also. just because the nation decides something it does not mean those who disagree will go away or "get over themselves"

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5667
    spookwoman
    Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    Graces7 wrote: »
    It has been posted earlier in the thread that many "catholics" voted for repeal knowing they were voting against one of the core commandments. The utmost in hypocrisy . They call them cafeteria catholics. Far better if they stop using the name. Social catholics Meaningless .
    :rolleyes: hypocrisy, you know all about that.

    Matthew 22:36-40
    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

    38 This is the first and great commandment.

    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    You don't love your neighbours much especially the yes voters, sure you'd like to see women who had abortions have their wombs removed.

    You may want to stop calling yourself a catholic as well.


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    #5668
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Graces7 wrote: »
    The cheering was appallingly inappropriate and offensive. What was being voted on WAS abortion. Sounded like a football crowd.

    It was offensive to YOU, but you are not the meter by which offence should ever be measured. You want to pretend they were cheering for abortion, just so you can high horse them and tut from on high..... then by all means pretend that. More power to you.

    As one of the people who cheered, and is STILL cheering, I can however tell you why we did and why we do. And I generally think it better to ask people why they do something, rather than go to some third party like you to have you invent it for us. Why not go direct to the source, rather than have someone who spins a yarn from her own imaginations?

    The reason we are cheering is because we did the right thing. The reason we are cheering is some of us have been working towards the right thing for a year, some for 5 years, some for a decade, and some even since the day the stupid, contrived, biased, agenda driven amendment was done in the first place.

    We were, and still are, cheering because we have seen the fruits of our long and hard work come to flower. And when people who genuinely mean well work hard and celebrate.... that is never inappropriate, and never offensive. Except for those who are sore about the result, or those who contrive to be offended because playing the offence card is all they got. Which is, sadly, more and more often in the current Age Of Offence we appear to be living through.


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    #5669
    GoneHome
    Registered Users Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭GoneHome


    end of the road wrote: »
    so what? the nation decided to implement the 8th in 1983 also. just because the nation decides something it does not mean those who disagree will go away or "get over themselves"

    That was 1983, this is now and to use a cliche it's a different country and thank christ it is that we're not in that backward Catholic controlled country that we were living in back then. As someone living on the border of North Cork/South Limerick in what was always one of the most conservative areas voting wise over the years (Cork North West) I have to say I was over the moon to see the yes vote being the majority here this time round, our country is changing and all for the better


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    #5670
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,484 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Those who claim to be the most Christian are those who are least Christian. Funny that.


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    #5671
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Graces7 wrote: »

    It has been posted earlier in the thread that many "catholics" voted for repeal knowing they were voting against one of the core commandments. The utmost in hypocrisy . They call them cafeteria catholics. Far better if they stop using the name. Social catholics Meaningless .

    I think it would be far better if a select group of Catholics would refrain from molesting a very vulnerable other group of Catholics.

    Don't talk about hypocrisy when you have the highest echelons and representatives of the Catholic Church protecting some of the most prolific and serial child rapists known to man. That is the utmost of hypocrisy.


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