A legalise drugs thread. This time it’s different.

italodisco · 31-05-2018 11:39PM

wexie wrote: »

From how it's been explained to me benzos are actually harder to get off of than heroine

A mate used them for years on and off, got to the point that he was taking them every day... Middle class guy, good job etc.....

Went cold turkey and ended up having seizures, hallucinations, got rushed into hospital and turned out he had a heart attack cause by it.

Serious stuff

wexie · 31-05-2018 11:39PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Already on the radar of some in the health services, so I believe, you d be surprised how well informed some people are in our services. Has krokodil made it to Ireland yet?

From what little I know that is even scarier ****, lets hope it doesn't make it here.

Wanderer78 · 31-05-2018 11:41PM

wexie wrote:

From what little I know that is even scarier ****, lets hope it doesn't make it here.

Us being ****ed up humans, that's probably unlikely, until the next, more ****ed up thing comes a long

italodisco · 31-05-2018 11:41PM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Thanks for the other side Italodisco, highly encourage you to fill out the survey with your experience if you haven't already. Far too many people like me shouting about this. Balance is certainly needed.

I'll certainly fill it out.

For the record I'm all for decriminalization of weed and E, need to have tester kits available too at festivals etc.

Hellrazer · 31-05-2018 11:41PM

stimpson wrote: »

Much of the harm comes from the fact that it’s illegal. Provide it on prescription and you do a number of things:

- take the market from the dealers and gain the ability to control and regulate it, making it harder for the next generation to take it up
- provide clean drugs. Clinically pure heroin, while addictive, is far less harmful than street heroin
- couple that with clean needles and facilities to shoot up
addicts
- use this as an opportunity to give addicts an alternative and actually attempt to rehabilitate them
- greatly reduce violent crime. Anyone who knows an addict knows that they are soft as ****e once they’ve had a hit.
- free up the massive amount of resources currently used to prosecute

If you haven’t read the link in the OP about Portugal, I suggest you give it a read.

Completely agree. Ive just finished my 1st year of addiction studies in NUIM and my end of year essay was on Harm reduction.

Everything you've just said is whats required to stop the current situation regarding our huge use of illegal substances.
Personally I welcome this consultation and feel that now we are getting somewhere with this epidemic.

And before anyone gets on their high horse and assumes I know nothing about the issue--I grew up in Dublin 8 not too far from Fatima Mansions,Dolphin house etc in the late 80s and 90s when the heroin problem was in full swing.
I was in a class of 30 and before we finished school 16 had died from heroin.
There were families completely wiped out by heroin as in all the kids in the family were addicts and dies as a direct result of heroin.
Heroin was sold at school gates and given away for free to get kids some as young as 12 addicted.
Had harm reduction been used back then I really feel that these kids would still be around now. Back then the focus was on policing and honestly it did more harm than good. The epidemic hit like a train and the government at the time didn't have a clue what to do about it.

Its good to see a different spin on things and hopefully they will get somewhere this time.
The Portugal model should be their aim as it has worked in Portugal and should be a model for other countries affected.

Great first post Stimpson.

wexie · 31-05-2018 11:42PM

italodisco wrote: »

A mate used them for years on and off, got to the point that he was taking them every day... Middle class guy, good job etc.....

Went cold turkey and ended up having seizures, hallucinations, got rushed into hospital and turned out he had a heart attack cause by it.

Serious stuff

I've been struggling with depression for a good while now and have consistently refused to take benzo's for any length (took some at crisis points) and will continue to do so.

But it's scary to think how easy it would be to get them if I wanted. Not even on the streets, all above board.

But you'd get in trouble for some weed

I'm not too sure where I stand on the whole heroine thing as from what I know it just can't be compared.

But the whole hypocrisy around weed vs benzo's etc could do with being held up to a good bit of scrutiny

italodisco · 31-05-2018 11:44PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Completely agree. Ive just finished my 1st year of addiction studies in NUIM and my end of year essay was on Harm reduction.

Everything you've just said is whats required to stop the current situation regarding our huge use of illegal substances.
Personally I welcome this consultation and feel that now we are getting somewhere with this epidemic.

And before anyone gets on their high horse and assumes I know nothing about the issue--I grew up in Dublin 8 not too far from Fatima Mansions,Dolphin house etc in the late 80s and 90s when the heroin problem was in full swing.
I was in a class of 30 and before we finished school 16 had died from heroin.
There were families completely wiped out by heroin as in all the kids in the family were addicts and dies as a direct result of heroin.
Heroin was sold at school gates and given away for free to get kids some as young as 12 addicted.
Had harm reduction been used back then I really feel that these kids would still be around now. Back then the focus was on policing and honestly it did more harm than good. The epidemic hit like a train and the government at the time didn't have a clue what to do about it.

Its good to see a different spin on things and hopefully they will get somewhere this time.
The Portugal model should be their aim as it has worked in Portugal and should be a model for other countries affected.

Great first post Stimpson.

If that comment about the high horse is directed at me unfortunately the horde I'm on is a fairly low horse chap, I've been through the dark side and made it out after a long struggle and many relapses so I'm certainly not on any high horse

Hellrazer · 31-05-2018 11:44PM

wexie wrote: »

I don't know if this still happens (been out of the country a long time) but back in the day in Holland the cops realized this very thing and it culminated with there being stands at raves where you could get your drugs tested....by the police who would then give it back (or not) with an approval : this is good ****.

They realized they weren't going to stop kids taking this stuff (E mostly) and shifted the focus on stopping kids dying from bad stuff.

We had that here in the 90s but its been used fairly recently as the "Safesesh" iniative here in Ireland.

Cupcake_Crisis · 31-05-2018 11:46PM

PARlance wrote: »

I would say it's completely out of hand at present. It's part a normal night out for the average joe in a lot of cases.

Very true. An ex of mine from a few years ago had a hefty coke habit. He was a professional guy, good job and the sorts, but couldn’t have a night out without it. Then it slowly started creeping in till he couldn’t do anything without it. He hid it well, I didn’t find out for months. Coke is horrible and very widespread.

italodisco · 31-05-2018 11:47PM

wexie wrote: »

I've been struggling with depression for a good while now and have consistently refused to take benzo's for any length (took some at crisis points) and will continue to do so.

But it's scary to think how easy it would be to get them if I wanted. Not even on the streets, all above board.

But you'd get in trouble for some weed

I'm not too sure where I stand on the whole heroine thing as from what I know it just can't be compared.

But the whole hypocrisy around weed vs benzo's etc could do with being held up to a good bit of scrutiny

You could go to a GP, make up some nonsense bullshh story about not being able to breath and getting awful shaky and feeling scared for no reason and the majority of them would prescribe you Valium or zanax instead of doing the right thing and sending you to a therapist first.

Hellrazer · 31-05-2018 11:47PM

italodisco wrote: »

If that comment about the high horse is directed at me unfortunately the horde I'm on is a fairly low horse chap, I've been through the dark side and made it out after a long struggle and many relapses so I'm certainly not on any high horse

No not at all. And please don't take it that way.I apologise if you felt it was aimed at you.

This issue is something that really interests me which is why I went back to study it last September and I have been accused in the past of not knowing what Im talking about because of where I currently live.

Wanderer78 · 31-05-2018 11:50PM

I think it's important to realise, we will always have addiction problems in our societies, from food addictions to highly addictive substances as discussed here, and everything in between. It's just time we were a little more proactive about it than reactive, and to realise, no matter what approaches we make to deal with them, all will have negatives

Jerichoholic · 31-05-2018 11:51PM

PARlance wrote: »

I would say it's completely out of hand at present. It's part a normal night out for the average joe in a lot of cases.

The only time people I know don't take it on a night out is when they can't get it. If it's legal and can be got anywhere at all it'll just be a complete mess.

wexie · 31-05-2018 11:53PM

Jerichoholic wrote: »

The only time people I know don't take it on a night out is when they can't get it. If it's legal and can be got anywhere at all it'll just be a complete mess.

I don't think anyone is advocating selling it in Spar or Centra.

Just not sticking people in prison (or getting them up in court) for it.

Bateman · 31-05-2018 11:58PM

italodisco wrote: »

-Clean needles are readily available, there's at least 6 needle exchanges we're im living with a que of users and the occasional bodybuilder mixed in with them on a daily basis.

-There are plenty of resources there to help addicts rehabilitate

-reduce violent crime? The majority of violent crimes in our big cities are not carried out by addicts, heroin addicts are typically opportunists, Ive had plenty of run in with them over the years, a 12 year old boy could boot the head off one.

- providing clean drugs is all well and good if it's e's and weed, you don't end up strung out to bits off them (unless you lived through the early dance music scene in the 90s and ended up on heroin due to using it to come down off pills), heroin though, it just takes a couple of tries to be be hooked unless you are EXTREMELY strong willed

- look at benzo's, nobody gets done for possession of benzo's, I could walk out my door now and get a handful of strips without hassle.
Look at how foked folk are now from using them, walk down talbot street any time of day and you'll see it. Lots of treatment options available too, it ain't working though.

As for K...:eek:

AllForIt · 31-05-2018 11:59PM

I have nothing morally against anyone taking drugs. Heck I'd love to have the money I spent on them back now. I had to give them up completely because they began to be a serious problem in my life the longer and longer over time I took them. They are not just physically addictive but emotionally addictive, of course they are- they make you feel good.

A friend of mine moved back to Ireland from London specifically because the social scene he lived in as he put it 'had become too druggy'. I used to live in the same social circles and I have seen how drugs turn ppl into zombies and not very nice ppl either.

IMO it's impossible to just be a casual drug taker. You know - the odd snort now and again. Over time one needs more and more for the same hit and I think that applies to everyone.

I understand the issue of making them safer but I don't think they are ever really safe even if they are 100% pure.

Drugs can and often do have a serious effects on one's mental health and I couldn't ever support the legalization of them.

italodisco · 01-06-2018 12:11AM

Bateman wrote: »

As for K...:eek:

Tried it once.... NEVER again.

How anyone enjoys it is beyond me!!!

Hellrazer · 01-06-2018 12:11AM

italodisco wrote: »

-Clean needles are readily available, there's at least 6 needle exchanges we're im living with a que of users and the occasional bodybuilder mixed in with them on a daily basis.

30 years ago there were none and the first one was met with huge opposition. Thankfully we`ve moved on a small bit.

-There are plenty of resources there to help addicts rehabilitate

Actually there aren't many options available.The options are limited to community based low threshold services which while they look good on paper are really quite useless. Then there are maintenance programmes which substitute heroin for methadone. Having an addict on methadone for years and years is worse than being on heroin.

Detox with residential support and a couple of years aftercare is the most proven and most successful treatment available but I think at the last count there are only 140 detox beds in the country but the government will claim there are 700 or something.
So in that way we are way off the mark.

Hellrazer · 01-06-2018 12:14AM

AllForIt wrote: »

Drugs can and often do have a serious effects on one's mental health and I couldn't ever support the legalization of them.

I think you`ll find that its actually mental health issues that cause people to become addicted and not the other way around.
For years the two were treated separately but the current thinking is that both need to be treated at the same time.

italodisco · 01-06-2018 12:19AM

Hellrazer wrote: »

30 years ago there were none and the first one was met with huge opposition. Thankfully we`ve moved on a small bit.

Actually there aren't many options available.The options are limited to community based low threshold services which while they look good on paper are really quite useless. Then there are maintenance programmes which substitute heroin for methadone. Having an addict on methadone for years and years is worse than being on heroin.

Detox with residential support and a couple of years aftercare is the most proven and most successful treatment available but I think at the last count there are only 140 detox beds in the country but the government will claim there are 700 or something.
So in that way we are way off the mark.

Yes I know of a few families that would have sent their addict son or daughter to the UK to do the residential detox, definitely something we need more of here

Jerichoholic · 01-06-2018 12:23AM

wexie wrote: »

I don't think anyone is advocating selling it in Spar or Centra.

Just not sticking people in prison (or getting them up in court) for it.

The OP was about legalizing all drugs. That's literally what he was saying.

charlietheminxx · 01-06-2018 12:42AM

Jerichoholic wrote: »

The OP was about legalizing all drugs. That's literally what he was saying.

The survey itself is about decriminalisation though.

ETA - and it asks you about each type of drug separately.

AllForIt · 01-06-2018 01:15AM

Hellrazer wrote: »

I think you`ll find that its actually mental health issues that cause people to become addicted and not the other way around.
For years the two were treated separately but the current thinking is that both need to be treated at the same time.

I think you are denying the whole idea of physical substance addiction there. I don't know how anyone can become addicted to something if they never consume in the first place.

What you are saying is that ppl who have mental health problems which they possibly weren't even aware off become addicted to substances because of their mental health issues.

I said in my post that you partially quoted that drugs are both physically addictive and emotionally addictive. I could give you that a person who is not emotionally/mentally at their best they may be more likely to become addicted simply for the feel good factor which may be lacking in their lives. But that says noting about the physical addiction ppl will feel for taking them which has noting to do with mental health.

But to suggest that a person who has no mental health issues and then takes drugs on a weekly basis won't develop any over time is to me utter nonsense.

DickSwiveller · 01-06-2018 01:20AM

There is so much received conventional wisdom in the OP that its difficult to know where to begin. "Addiction" is not a medical issue. There is absolutely no evidence for alleged addiction apart from an endless stream of pseudoscientific babble that would embarrass a serious scientist. People can stop taking drugs if they really want, and many do.

AllForIt · 01-06-2018 01:29AM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

There is so much received conventional wisdom in the OP that its difficult to know where to begin. "Addiction" is not a medical issue. There is absolutely no evidence for alleged addiction apart from an endless stream of pseudoscientific babble that would embarrass a serious scientist. People can stop taking drugs if they really want, and many do.

So alcoholics can stop just like that. No physical or mental withdrawal symptoms whatsoever? No one is denying ppl can stop but it's far from trivial to do and even worse than stopping is the ever looming possibility of going back on it.

DickSwiveller · 01-06-2018 01:31AM

AllForIt wrote: »

So alcoholics can stop just like that. No physical or mental withdrawal symptoms whatsoever? No one is denying ppl can stop but it's from from trivial to do and even worse than stopping is the ever looming possibility of going back on it.

Withdrawal symptoms have nothing to do with alleged addiction. Of course if you take something that is bad for you for a long time you will feel sick if you suddenly stop. It doesn't mean you are forced to keep taking the drug.

StupidLikeAFox · 01-06-2018 01:59AM

Jerichoholic wrote: »

The coke problem in this country is absolutely crazy now. You can't legalize it, it would get completely out of hand.

Do you not see the irony in that statement? Drugs are incredibly easy to get and they are illegal. If they were regulated you have some chance of controlling the issue.

Yakult · 01-06-2018 02:02AM

For people not aware of Portugal's stance on drugs, read this article.

https://news.vice.com/article/ungass-portugal-what-happened-after-decriminalization-drugs-weed-to-heroin

Graces7 · 01-06-2018 05:30AM

pudzey101 wrote: »

people that think cannabis is worse than alcohol are just plain stupid

No one is saying that.

Graces7 · 01-06-2018 05:36AM

italodisco wrote: »

Well the reality is that heroin is going to be the least of our worries soon, the health system is going to be over run with serious cases of benzo addiction any time now judging by the endless empty strips of diazepam and zanax all over the streets around the city centre.

I asked a junkie about it one day, he said heroin has become fierce hard to get the last year so they bang 30mg of diazepam down the hatch and lash a can into them and it has a similar effect and its easy to source.

That has been happening for years re prescription benzos . Much of the street version is not pure benzos anyways.

benzos are notoriously harder to get off than heroin. Having got off valium once I believe that and envy no one that process.

A legalise drugs thread. This time it’s different.

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