A legalise drugs thread. This time it’s different.

stimpson

So our socially progressive government have finally started to look at alternatives to criminal prosecution for drugs offences. They have a questionnaire up here -> https://health.gov.ie/consultations/

I would recommend everyone go and complete the form. I have suggested legalisation of all drugs with a view to treating addiction as a medical issue rather than through the courts and I would advise you all to do the same. For anyone who balks at the idea of legalising heroin, I suggest you research what Portugal has done over the past 10 years and how they have a falling rates of new HIV infections among addicts and a falling number of addicts as a whole. Money saved by doing this can be ploughed into public services and actual crime.

https://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/success-portugal’s-decriminalisation-policy-–-seven-charts

SEPT 23 1989

Nice try copper

stimpson

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Nice try copper

I don’t know what you mean

Hello yes i would like one drugs please

Allinall

stimpson wrote: »

Money saved by doing this can be ploughed into public services and actual crime.

Feck that.

We’ve enough crime already, without pouring more money into it.

Samuel T. Cogley

stimpson wrote: »

So our socially progressive government have finally started to look at alternatives to criminal prosecution for drugs offences. They have a questionnaire up here -> https://health.gov.ie/consultations/

I would recommend everyone go and complete the form. I have suggested legalisation of all drugs with a view to treating addiction as a medical issue rather than through the courts and I would advise you all to do the same. For anyone who balks at the idea of legalising heroin, I suggest you research what Portugal has done over the past 10 years and how they have a falling rates of new HIV infections among addicts and a falling number of addicts as a whole. Money saved by doing this can be ploughed into public services and actual crime.

https://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/success-portugal’s-decriminalisation-policy-–-seven-charts

Excellent tread and fair play. Completed.

stimpson

Allinall wrote: »

Feck that.

We’ve enough crime already, without pouring more money into it.

Well the guards will need something to do when they can’t bust kids for having a ten spot. Do they even call them ten spots anymore?

North inner city hoodlum

stimpson wrote: »

Well the guards will need something to do when they can’t bust kids for having a ten spot. Do they even call them ten spots anymore?

Ten spots..... Those were the days.... Memories... Never mind ten spots there's a premium now on hashish.

It's all about the weed now and most guards don't want someone charged for small possession hash/weed for personal use,that's the DPP charges for statistical purposes.

Free up the guards who are snowed under with paper work and tolerate drug use by legal means tax regulate and pump all profits into the guards, health service and harm reduction and addiction services to name a few.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Absolutely not.

We have enough problems with young people killing each other already.

Legalizing grass will lead to our young people becoming hash heads and taking even harder drugs.

There's enough problems without people being whacked out of it on jazz fags.

Gardai need to take a zero tolerance approach to drugs.

captbarnacles

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Gardai need to take a zero tolerance approach to drugs.

Definitely. Always works out well.

wexie

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Gardai need to take a zero tolerance approach to drugs.

You're right, that's always worked really well historically.

(did I miss the <sarcasm> tags again?)

brianregan09

I did it aswell fare play OP

Pintman Paddy Losty

captbarnacles wrote: »

Definitely. Always works out well.

Well it's better than the alternative. The OP is proposing legalising all drugs. That's absolutely ridiculous.

So you'd be happy enough for your ambulance driver to arrive to pick you up monged off his head on grass. Bleary-eyed dropping you to the hospital via KFC because he got the munchies.

Young people these days are running riot. Imagine what it would be liken it you add disco biscuits to the mix.

wexie

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

So you'd be happy enough for your ambulance driver to arrive to pick you up monged off his head on grass. Bleary-eyed dropping you to the hospital via KFC because he got the munchies..

Wouldn't be particularly happy to be honest.

Wouldn't be particularly happy if he showed up having just had a feed of pints and stopped on the way for a bag of chips either.

stimpson

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Well it's better than the alternative. The OP is proposing legalising all drugs. That's absolutely ridiculous.

So you'd be happy enough for your ambulance driver to arrive to pick you up monged off his head on grass. Bleary-eyed dropping you to the hospital via KFC because he got the munchies.

Young people these days are running riot. Imagine what it would be liken it you add disco biscuits to the mix.

I didn’t say they should be compulsory.

Does your ambulance driver show up after drinking a bag of cans? Does he stop for a spice bag on the way?

The high horse brigade

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Well it's better than the alternative. The OP is proposing legalising all drugs. That's absolutely ridiculous.

So you'd be happy enough for your ambulance driver to arrive to pick you up monged off his head on grass. Bleary-eyed dropping you to the hospital via KFC because he got the munchies.

Young people these days are running riot. Imagine what it would be liken it you add disco biscuits to the mix.

No I expect him to obey the rules of the road and be sober from all toxic substances while in control of a vehicle. What he does while he's not working or driving is none of my business.

wexie

Dammit dammit sonofabitch....

I actually agree with the high horse brigade...

must be getting old

brianregan09

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Well it's better than the alternative. The OP is proposing legalising all drugs. That's absolutely ridiculous.

So you'd be happy enough for your ambulance driver to arrive to pick you up monged off his head on grass. Bleary-eyed dropping you to the hospital via KFC because he got the munchies.

Young people these days are running riot. Imagine what it would be liken it you add disco biscuits to the mix.

This is the most childish closed minded response I thought possible

pudzey101

people that think cannabis is worse than alcohol are just plain stupid

robp

In fairness drug use is already treated as a medical issue and not a criminal issue. Only selling is treating as a criminal matter.

brianregan09

brianregan09 wrote: »

This is the most childish closed minded response I thought possible

He is, quite obviously, taking the piss. Everyone is falling for it hook, line and sinker. Sure he's even named after your man who allegedly downed forty pints.

italodisco

OP should come stay a few nights down my way in North inner city, he might change his mind.

Come talk to the locals that have sons and daughters who's lives were ruined by heroin, willing to bet they won't see any positives legalising it.

stimpson

italodisco wrote: »

OP should come stay a few nights down my way in North inner city, he might change his mind.

Come talk to the locals that have sons and daughters who's lives were ruined by heroin, willing to bet they won't see any positives legalising it.

I’ve more than enough first hand experience of it. The idea is damage limitation. If you can take the illegality away and provide supports for addicts you see better outcomes. Heroin has been illegal for decades and it hasn’t fixed the problem. Maybe we should try something else that has been shown to work better.

Samuel T. Cogley

italodisco wrote: »

OP should come stay a few nights down my way in North inner city, he might change his mind.

Come talk to the locals that have sons and daughters who's lives were ruined by heroin, willing to bet they won't see any positives legalising it.

That's not what they're experiencing in Portugal and I believe the Swiss before that. It's also not legalisation despite the title, it's decriminalisation. How many drug addicts have gotten off drugs by a stint in prison?

italodisco

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That's not what they're experiencing in Portugal and I believe the Swiss before that. It's also not legalisation despite the title, it's decriminalisation. How many drug addicts have gotten off drugs by a stint in prison?

I hate to break it to you but here in Dublin we've had and still have much higher levels of heroin abuse than Spain, Switzerland or Portugal. They have never experienced the heroin epidemic that hit dublin.

Drug addicts don't get sent to prison for possession of heroin for personal use, they get sent to prison for the crimes they commit to feed their habit.

There are and have been for a very long time treatment programs and supports in place here.

There's no point telling me otherwise, living in North inner city and having first hand experience with the effects that drug have on a family is enough for me to make my decision.

Legalising weed and ecstasy is a different matter, I'd fully support that more so for harm reduction / quality control. They don't don't take over a person's life to the extent heroin does, whereas legalising heroin just makes it easier to get and makes it easier for people to become addicts. Why the hell would you want to legalise a drug so addictive

italodisco

stimpson wrote: »

I’ve more than enough first hand experience of it. The idea is damage limitation. If you can take the illegality away and provide supports for addicts you see better outcomes. Heroin has been illegal for decades and it hasn’t fixed the problem. Maybe we should try something else that has been shown to work better.

Yes sure decriminalising one of the most addictive soul destroying substances on the planet is sure to help....

Supports are in place and have been for a very long time.

I think you'll find the issues with heroin, in Dublin anyway, are more on a social level.

Wanderer78

italodisco wrote:

Legalising weed and ecstasy is a different matter, I'd fully support that more so for harm reduction / quality control. They don't don't take over a person's life to the extent heroin does, whereas legalising heroin just makes it easier to get and makes it easier for people to become addicts. Why the hell would you want to legalise a drug so addictive

You re right, We should probably reconsider our laws on alcohol and tobacco, and maybe make them illegal also!

italodisco

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You re right, We should probably reconsider our laws on alcohol and tobacco, and maybe make them illegal also!

So alcohol and tobacco are on par with heroin?

Really?

Wanderer78

italodisco wrote:

So alcohol and tobacco are on par with heroin?

Could be argued, yes, how many lives has both destroyed? I suspect it's well in the millions, if not billions. Both also highly addictive

italodisco

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Could be argued, yes, how many lives has both destroyed? I suspect it's well in the millions, if not billions. Both also highly addictive

Easy spot who's not from Dublin / from an area ravaged by heroin.

Well done son!

Samuel T. Cogley

italodisco wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but here in Dublin we've had and still have much higher levels of heroin abuse than Spain, Switzerland or Portugal. They have never experienced the heroin epidemic that hit dublin.

That's not really the point. They've seen a reduction since decriminalisation. Taking Stimpson's word on it in Portugal, I thought they'd seen a slight increase in use but with dramatic reductions in harm.

italodisco wrote: »

Drug addicts don't get sent to prison for possession of heroin for personal use, they get sent to prison for the crimes they commit to feed their habit.

So it's effectively decriminalised anyway then? Why not make it official policy and turn public attention to treatment.

italodisco wrote: »

There are and have been for a very long time treatment programs and supports in place here.

There is some good work being done, but it's woefully under resourced, especially in prisons.

italodisco wrote: »

There's no point telling me otherwise, living in North inner city and having first hand experience with the effects that drug have on a family is enough for me to make my decision.

Not quite sure what that is - you either want it criminalised at which point people would be imprisoned for simple possession. You want it decriminalised which it already effectively is or some third ground I can't work out. Interested what that third way is.

italodisco wrote: »

Legalising weed and ecstasy is a different matter, I'd fully support that more so for harm reduction / quality control. They don't don't take over a person's life to the extent heroin does, whereas legalising heroin just makes it easier to get and makes it easier for people to become addicts. Why the hell would you want to legalise a drug so addictive

It's derailing the thread a bit as it's NOT talking about legalisation but decriminalisation. However you'd legalise Heroin to avoid the huge issues around addiction. Heroin addicts are largely harmless on Heroin. It's the getting it which causes huge amounts of theft and the illegal supply that causes a huge amount of gangland crime.

People get addicted to all sorts of things, that's their choice. Make it as safe as possible and if actual users lives are cut short then so be it frankly. It's about minimising harm to the addicts and society in general.

As I say, that's a derailment of what's being suggested in the OP's link which is decriminalisation.

Wanderer78

italodisco wrote:

Easy spot who's not from Dublin / from an area ravaged by heroin.

Heroin, only in Dublin! Are you for real! It's in every nuck and cranny of this country now, and has been for years! It can be easily argued that alcohol and tobacco are just as dangerous as heroin, if not worse.

Arghus

So far this is not so different.

stimpson

italodisco wrote: »

Yes sure decriminalising one of the most addictive soul destroying substances on the planet is sure to help....

Supports are in place and have been for a very long time.

I think you'll find the issues with heroin, in Dublin anyway, are more on a social level.

Much of the harm comes from the fact that it’s illegal. Provide it on prescription and you do a number of things:

- take the market from the dealers and gain the ability to control and regulate it, making it harder for the next generation to take it up
- provide clean drugs. Clinically pure heroin, while addictive, is far less harmful than street heroin
- couple that with clean needles and facilities to shoot up
addicts
- use this as an opportunity to give addicts an alternative and actually attempt to rehabilitate them
- greatly reduce violent crime. Anyone who knows an addict knows that they are soft as ****e once they’ve had a hit.
- free up the massive amount of resources currently used to prosecute

If you haven’t read the link in the OP about Portugal, I suggest you give it a read.

italodisco

This is a post about decriminalisation in Ireland, focus on Ireland.

Growing up in Teresa's gardens watching gear head zombies floating around all day long, the majority of friends having a gear head brother or sister in the family, the numerous unsuccessful attempts at putting them through treatment only for them to end up strung out to bits again a few months later, hepatitis C killing off half the users in the area....

Compared to maybe two alcoholic men from the flats that lived into their 70s....

Not going to debate this with you, I've lived it, witnessed it life long growing up, don't tell me me dublin has a alcoholism problem up there with heroin abuse

Jerichoholic

The coke problem in this country is absolutely crazy now. You can't legalize it, it would get completely out of hand.

Wanderer78

Jerichoholic wrote:

The coke problem in this country is absolutely crazy now. You can't legalize it, it would get completely out of hand.

It's been like that for years now. would it really?

Jerichoholic

It's never been like it is now. It's grown rapidly in the last 5 years.

Samuel T. Cogley

italodisco wrote: »

This is a post about decriminalisation in Ireland, focus on Ireland.

You can't cut off examples of what works because it doesn't fit your narrative.

italodisco wrote: »

Growing up in Teresa's gardens watching gear head zombies floating around all day long, the majority of friends having a gear head brother or sister in the family, the numerous unsuccessful attempts at putting them through treatment only for them to end up strung out to bits again a few months later, hepatitis C killing off half the users in the area....

Heroin doesn't cause HepC. Forcing heroin underground causes HepC.

italodisco wrote: »

Compared to maybe two alcoholic men from the flats that lived into their 70s....

So did Lou Reed (just!) If Alcohol was illegal those lads would have died in their 30's from drinking illegal shyte.

italodisco wrote: »

Not going to debate this with you, I've lived it, witnessed it life long growing up, don't tell me me dublin has a alcoholism problem up there with heroin abuse

No largely because it's not illegal. Look at the issues prohibition caused in the States.

stimpson

italodisco wrote: »

This is a post about decriminalisation in Ireland, focus on Ireland.

Growing up in Teresa's gardens watching gear head zombies floating around all day long, the majority of friends having a gear head brother or sister in the family, the numerous unsuccessful attempts at putting them through treatment only for them to end up strung out to bits again a few months later, hepatitis C killing off half the users in the area....

Compared to maybe two alcoholic men from the flats that lived into their 70s....

Not going to debate this with you, I've lived it, witnessed it life long growing up, don't tell me me dublin has a alcoholism problem up there with heroin abuse

Hep C could be eliminated if heroin was administer in a controlled way with clean needles. It’s not the heroin that gives you Hep C.

Samuel T. Cogley

Jerichoholic wrote: »

The coke problem in this country is absolutely crazy now. You can't legalize it, it would get completely out of hand.

Honest question. Do you think more people would do Coke if possession was decriminalised or are people who want to do Coke, probably doing Coke?

P_1

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Well it's better than the alternative. The OP is proposing legalising all drugs. That's absolutely ridiculous.

So you'd be happy enough for your ambulance driver to arrive to pick you up monged off his head on grass. Bleary-eyed dropping you to the hospital via KFC because he got the munchies.

Young people these days are running riot. Imagine what it would be liken it you add disco biscuits to the mix.

I assume you're also happy with your ambulance driver being geeeyed from his 10 pints and few chasers in that case...

italodisco

stimpson wrote: »

Much of the harm comes from the fact that it’s illegal. Provide it on prescription and you do a number of things:

- take the market from the dealers and gain the ability to control and regulate it, making it harder for the next generation to take it up
- provide clean drugs. Clinically pure heroin, while addictive, is far less harmful than street heroin
- couple that with clean needles and facilities to shoot up
addicts
- use this as an opportunity to give addicts an alternative and actually attempt to rehabilitate them
- greatly reduce violent crime. Anyone who knows an addict knows that they are soft as ****e once they’ve had a hit.
- free up the massive amount of resources currently used to prosecute

If you haven’t read the link in the OP about Portugal, I suggest you give it a read.

-Clean needles are readily available, there's at least 6 needle exchanges we're im living with a que of users and the occasional bodybuilder mixed in with them on a daily basis.

-There are plenty of resources there to help addicts rehabilitate

-reduce violent crime? The majority of violent crimes in our big cities are not carried out by addicts, heroin addicts are typically opportunists, Ive had plenty of run in with them over the years, a 12 year old boy could boot the head off one.

- providing clean drugs is all well and good if it's e's and weed, you don't end up strung out to bits off them (unless you lived through the early dance music scene in the 90s and ended up on heroin due to using it to come down off pills), heroin though, it just takes a couple of tries to be be hooked unless you are EXTREMELY strong willed

- look at benzo's, nobody gets done for possession of benzo's, I could walk out my door now and get a handful of strips without hassle.
Look at how foked folk are now from using them, walk down talbot street any time of day and you'll see it. Lots of treatment options available too, it ain't working though.

italodisco

stimpson wrote: »

Hep C could be eliminated if heroin was administer in a controlled way with clean needles. It’s not the heroin that gives you Hep C.

Where are you living? Needle exchanges are everywhere in Dublin, everywhere.

I even have bodybuilding mates that go to needle exchanges specifically set up to cater for steroid users due to the recent popularity in steroid use.

There's 6 in my area alone, go 10 mins down the road there's 3 with walking distance of each other, there's a certain charity that give out sharps and wipes throughout the night too.

italodisco

stimpson wrote: »

Hep C could be eliminated if heroin was administer in a controlled way with clean needles. It’s not the heroin that gives you Hep C.

I'll agree though, we certainly need injection rooms

Samuel T. Cogley

italodisco wrote: »

Where are you living? Needle exchanges are everywhere in Dublin, everywhere.

I even have bodybuilding mates that go to needle exchanges specifically set up to cater for steroid users due to the recent popularity in steroid use.

There's 6 in my area alone, go 10 mins down the road there's 3 with walking distance of each other, there's a certain charity that give out sharps and wipes throughout the night too.

The issue there is one associates a certain level of disorganisation with your garden variety Heroin connoisseur. If there were 24 hour facilities where these people could get their fix, a one stop shop if you will, there would be a massive drop in overall crime.

stimpson

italodisco wrote: »

-

- providing clean drugs is all well and good if it's e's and weed, you don't end up strung out to bits off them (unless you lived through the early dance music scene in the 90s and ended up on heroin due to using it to come down off pills), heroin though, it just takes a couple of tries to be be hooked unless you are EXTREMELY strong willed

If the government own the heroin market, you will only be able to get it from a doctor. You visit the clinic, see the doctor, get a new needle and your dose. Take it there and then. On you go with your day. How is anyone going to get their hands on any when the supply is tightly controlled? This is key. It gives the government the ability to regulate it. There is nothing stopping a teenager from scoring some gear and trying it out right now. The current system is broken and needs change.

italodisco

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You can't cut off examples of what works because it doesn't fit your narrative.



Heroin doesn't cause HepC. Forcing heroin underground causes HepC.



So did Lou Reed (just!) If Alcohol was illegal those lads would have died in their 30's from drinking illegal shyte.



No largely because it's not illegal. Look at the issues prohibition caused in the States.

Don't know where you live but heroin ain't underground where I am, people bang up in phone boxes, bus shelters, benches in the park. Coppers stroll on by, can't blame them either....

wexie

italodisco wrote: »

-Clean needles are readily available, there's at least 6 needle exchanges we're im living with a que of users and the occasional bodybuilder mixed in with them on a daily basis.

-There are plenty of resources there to help addicts rehabilitate

-reduce violent crime? The majority of violent crimes in our big cities are not carried out by addicts, heroin addicts are typically opportunists, Ive had plenty of run in with them over the years, a 12 year old boy could boot the head off one.

- providing clean drugs is all well and good if it's e's and weed, you don't end up strung out to bits off them (unless you lived through the early dance music scene in the 90s and ended up on heroin due to using it to come down off pills), heroin though, it just takes a couple of tries to be be hooked unless you are EXTREMELY strong willed

- look at benzo's, nobody gets done for possession of benzo's, I could walk out my door now and get a handful of strips without hassle.
Look at how foked folk are now from using them, walk down talbot street any time of day and you'll see it. Lots of treatment options available too, it ain't working though.

Okay so....I'm not going to argue with your experiences cause I can't.

But what do you think the solution would be then? Or the first step to a solution?

I think we can probably agree on the fact the current approach isn't exactly working out too well?

Samuel T. Cogley

italodisco wrote: »

Don't know where you live but heroin ain't underground where I am, people bang up in phone boxes, bus shelters, benches in the park. Coppers stroll on by, can't blame them either....

Dublin 8 for ten years and now Dublin 5. I've my fair share of experience with Heroin users. That's not what I mean by underground, I'm talking about prohibition and the surrounding issues that causes directly.

Wanderer78

italodisco wrote:

Don't know where you live but heroin ain't underground where I am, people bang up in phone boxes, bus shelters, benches in the park. Coppers stroll on by, can't blame them either....

It's a health issue, not a legal issue