DHL overcharging.. see mod warning post #74

spix · 26-05-2018 12:14PM

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

So what is fair? In order to clear the shipments DHL has to operate a TAN account with Revenue. This is a credit facility underwritten by a bank guarantee. That is the first direct cost to DHL.
Operating the TAN account requires management, i.e. staff. Money's deducted from the TAN need to be matched against moneys collected from the consignee. And before you say "it's all automated" just think of the investment required to develop and maintain the automated processes. And it still requires "human intervention".
And then there is the actual customs entry that needs to be prepared and processed. Again it is driven by a high degree of automation but still requires staff to prepare and process the customs entry.
To put it into context, if you employ a customs broker to clear shipments on your behalf at a port or airport you will pay upwards of € 40.00 possibly as high as € 75.00 per shipment. So you tell me, is a fee of €15.00 fair?
As to the values declared to Customs by Revenue, the rules are very clear. Unless the commercial invoice accompanying the goods shows the correct INCO terms and / or the freight cost as a seperate item costs, as a customs clearance agent you have no choice but to add the freight costs to the value over which Duty and/or VAT has to be paid. It is therefore a rule, in the absence of clear evidence, that the freight cost is based on a (high) percentage of the standard tariff. The only way to avoid this is to make sure that your supplier issues a correct invoice to go with the shipment.

Well to find out if its fair or not, we'd need to know how much DHL is making off that 15 euro fee. I'm saying its not a fair amount for people who are only importing low value items. Since 15 euro is the minimum or 2.5% whichever is higher (I think you missed that detail when bringing up the customs broker), perhaps they could lower the minimum and increase the percentage if they are really struggling to cover costs, since for most people who use dhl for average value items, 50-100 euro, that 15 euro will work out to be a 15-25% fee. I have no issue at all with anposts fee since they aren't getting paid directly for the actual shipment yet will be doing the delivery.

spix · 26-05-2018 12:21PM

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

Be very clear. Unless the freight cost is shown as a seperate line on the commercial invoice, the customs broker has no choice but to add freight costs. Therefore DHL - in the absence of hard evidence - has to add the standard tariff freight cost. End of argument. If you disagree you have to take your case to Revenue and submit proof that the value declared is wrong.
To suggest that DHL (or other couriers) are taking liberties by charging for a service provided is seriously flawed and demonstrates a lack of understanding of Customs rules and regulation plus the work involved to process customs entries, bank guarantees required etc.
I am not a fan of DHL. They are a major competitor in my industry. However, there is a real cost involved in providing a customs clearance service. And where I come from only the sun goes up for nothing.

They don't 'have to' add the standard cost, and they don't. They do a 30% discount on it. Which still results almost certainly in a grossly overestimated price as can be seen by how many complaints about this have been posted before. They then re-adjust the price if the customer bothers to prove how much was actually paid, however it would be much simpler in the first place if they just had a more realistic estimation. DHL would rather overcharge 100 people than undercharge 1.

whiterebel · 26-05-2018 04:34PM

spix wrote: »

Well to find out if its fair or not, we'd need to know how much DHL is making off that 15 euro fee. I'm saying its not a fair amount for people who are only importing low value items. Since 15 euro is the minimum or 2.5% whichever is higher (I think you missed that detail when bringing up the customs broker), perhaps they could lower the minimum and increase the percentage if they are really struggling to cover costs, since for most people who use dhl for average value items, 50-100 euro, that 15 euro will work out to be a 15-25% fee. I have no issue at all with anposts fee since they aren't getting paid directly for the actual shipment yet will be doing the delivery.

No matter how low the charge people will complain because they expect the item to cost what they pay on the website they buy it. They don’t want to pay any extra charges, but that’s the problem of buying from outside the EU. If they remove the minimum amount for VAT collection, you’ll see cheap imports from outside the EU almost disappear.

The broker charge referred to above is usually for a one line entry. They could be dealing with imports worth millions, so a percentage isn’t feasible, plus the importer will have their own TAN account, so no Vat/Duty outlay for the broker.

spix · 26-05-2018 05:36PM

whiterebel wrote: »

No matter how low the charge people will complain because they expect the item to cost what they pay on the website they buy it. They don’t want to pay any extra charges, but that’s the problem of buying from outside the EU. If they remove the minimum amount for VAT collection, you’ll see cheap imports from outside the EU almost disappear.

The broker charge referred to above is usually for a one line entry. They could be dealing with imports worth millions, so a percentage isn’t feasible, plus the importer will have their own TAN account, so no Vat/Duty outlay for the broker.

Don't agree about the cost not mattering and its nothing to do with the vat minimum. The issue is that the minimum 15 euro advance payment fee (especially on top of an overestimated shipping fee) can suddenly make the customer feel like they just got ripped off especially since they're also paying 23% tax on the shipping fee DHL made up. Suddenly a 50 euro purchase costs double that. You can't help but feel ripped off. Alot of chinese sellers offer dhl for a relatively low price so its often used on pretty cheap purchases. Now if the 15 euro fee was a bit lower and the shipping estimate by DHL was relatively accurate, this wouldn't be such an issue.

I've experienced this myself and now try to avoid using DHL if at all possible. Even if you request the seller to declare the shipping, it isn't always done because the declaration is actually done by a 3rd party shipping agent that the seller uses. DHL must know the typical price for a shipment of a certain size coming from China, even I know it. Shipping there is extremely competitive, if they really charged the full price -30% they would not get any business there.

whiterebel · 26-05-2018 06:25PM

spix wrote: »

Don't agree about the cost not mattering and its nothing to do with the vat minimum. The issue is that the minimum 15 euro advance payment fee (especially on top of an overestimated shipping fee) can suddenly make the customer feel like they just got ripped off especially since they're also paying 23% tax on the shipping fee DHL made up. Suddenly a 50 euro purchase costs double that. You can't help but feel ripped off. Alot of chinese sellers offer dhl for a relatively low price so its often used on pretty cheap purchases. Now if the 15 euro fee was a bit lower and the shipping estimate by DHL was relatively accurate, this wouldn't be such an issue.

I've experienced this myself and now try to avoid using DHL if at all possible. Even if you request the seller to declare the shipping, it isn't always done because the declaration is actually done by a 3rd party shipping agent that the seller uses. DHL must know the typical price for a shipment of a certain size coming from China, even I know it. Shipping there is extremely competitive, if they really charged the full price -30% they would not get any business there.

All the couriers do the same thing, as they are instructed to do by Revenue. Yet again more guessing about what a company would know about what its operations in China have access to.
There is a rate for Clearance, and a procedure for non declaration of freight costs. If the shipper doesn't do it correctly, the problem lies with them. Not a couriers fault that the seller can't be bothered doing it correctly.

spix · 26-05-2018 11:17PM

whiterebel wrote: »

All the couriers do the same thing, as they are instructed to do by Revenue. Yet again more guessing about what a company would know about what its operations in China have access to.
There is a rate for Clearance, and a procedure for non declaration of freight costs. If the shipper doesn't do it correctly, the problem lies with them. Not a couriers fault that the seller can't be bothered doing it correctly.

How can a company not know about its own operations? If they don't know then they should find out fairly easily, unless of course it wouldn't be in their best interest.

It's just ignorance, for whatever reason, intentional or unintentional, doesn't matter. They are overcharging people with the shipping estimates and that's just a fact. I also wonder how frequently their estimate has pushed the parcels value over the 150 duty limit as well and then the buyer wrongly gets charged duty on top of paying extra vat. I'm telling you right now, there is practically no difference in DHL prices between shipping agents in hangzhou, guangzhou, aliexpress, whatever other chinese store that ships overseas you can think of. They're all on the same highly discounted DHL rate, which from my estimate is about 1/4 of what DHL will estimate the shipping cost to be. Theres a few exceptions where the DHL price is again even cheaper

Imagine if DHL decided to 'refuse low cost shipping' and then say that shipping cost you $80 when the items total cost including the dhl shipping was only $100. There is no way to defend that, if they're not happy with discounted shipping then perhaps they should stop offering discounted shipping in China instead of screwing over the customers.

whiterebel · 26-05-2018 11:50PM

spix wrote: »

How can a company not know about its own operations? If they don't know then they should find out fairly easily, unless of course it wouldn't be in their best interest.

It's just ignorance, for whatever reason, intentional or unintentional, doesn't matter. They are overcharging people with the shipping estimates and that's just a fact. I also wonder how frequently their estimate has pushed the parcels value over the 150 duty limit as well and then the buyer wrongly gets charged duty on top of paying extra vat. I'm telling you right now, there is practically no difference in DHL prices between shipping agents in hangzhou, guangzhou, aliexpress, whatever other chinese store that ships overseas you can think of. They're all on the same highly discounted DHL rate, which from my estimate is about 1/4 of what DHL will estimate the shipping cost to be. Theres a few exceptions where the DHL price is again even cheaper Imagine if DHL decided to 'refuse low cost shipping' and then say that shipping cost you $80 when the items total cost including the dhl shipping was only $100. There is no way to defend that, if they're not happy with discounted shipping then perhaps they should stop offering discounted shipping in China instead of screwing over the customers.

Yet again, guessing, and putting forward what YOU think should happen, not actual facts. Going in circles, so I’m out.

spix · 26-05-2018 11:56PM

whiterebel wrote: »

Yet again, guessing, and putting forward what YOU think should happen, not actual facts. Going in circles, so I’m out.

Please tell me what I'm guessing. There's proof that this happens all over this forum.

You don't really believe that you would get a shipment by express from China for €6.50, do you?

There's DHL express shipping for under €6.50 btw

RUDOLF289 · 27-05-2018 09:56AM

spix wrote: »

How can a company not know about its own operations? If they don't know then they should find out fairly easily, unless of course it wouldn't be in their best interest.

It's just ignorance, for whatever reason, intentional or unintentional, doesn't matter. They are overcharging people with the shipping estimates and that's just a fact. I also wonder how frequently their estimate has pushed the parcels value over the 150 duty limit as well and then the buyer wrongly gets charged duty on top of paying extra vat. I'm telling you right now, there is practically no difference in DHL prices between shipping agents in hangzhou, guangzhou, aliexpress, whatever other chinese store that ships overseas you can think of. They're all on the same highly discounted DHL rate, which from my estimate is about 1/4 of what DHL will estimate the shipping cost to be. Theres a few exceptions where the DHL price is again even cheaper Imagine if DHL decided to 'refuse low cost shipping' and then say that shipping cost you $80 when the items total cost including the dhl shipping was only $100. There is no way to defend that, if they're not happy with discounted shipping then perhaps they should stop offering discounted shipping in China instead of screwing over the customers.

The problem is not DHL. It is an instruction from Customs. As stated before, unless the freight charge is clearly stated on the documentation that accompany the shipment, the rule is that a freight charge is added. The rule as to how much is imposed by Revenue (in fact it is uniform throughout the EU)
You seem intend on blaming DHL. The issue is the paperwork provided to DHL by the shipper.
I suggest you stop making unfounded allegations. All you are doing is showing your lack of understanding on how the customs entry process works.

RUDOLF289 · 27-05-2018 10:19AM

Just so you know what the instruction is from Revenue regarding the addition of freight cost, please see attached Customs Manual. I suggest you refer to Chapter 9 "Additional Charges" on page 29. I am quoting direct from the manual ;

"In cases where the actual freight charge is not known at the time of customs clearance, the equivalent of that charge will apply (as ascertained from the tariff of the carrier in question for the same journey or reverse journey and for the same type of consignment)."

Now, I know you will come back and argue again that DHL is ripping off customers by artificially inflating the cost of the transport so they can justify their handling fee of € 15.00 minimum or 2.5%, so following the moderator I am also out.

spix · 27-05-2018 02:24PM

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

Just so you know what the instruction is from Revenue regarding the addition of freight cost, please see attached Customs Manual. I suggest you refer to Chapter 9 "Additional Charges" on page 29. I am quoting direct from the manual ;

"In cases where the actual freight charge is not known at the time of customs clearance, the equivalent of that charge will apply (as ascertained from the tariff of the carrier in question for the same journey or reverse journey and for the same type of consignment)."

Now, I know you will come back and argue again that DHL is ripping off customers by artificially inflating the cost of the transport so they can justify their handling fee of € 15.00 minimum or 2.5%, so following the moderator I am also out.

"For the same journey or reverse journey" DHL uses the cost of the parcel from Ireland -> China -30% (where is that specified in the manual you linked to?) but if you look at the Full official price on the DHL HK/China website to Ireland, its much cheaper than what the Ireland -> China -30% cost would be. Wonder why they use that option seeing as the parcel did actually come from China :rolleyes: If it is really due to customs setting the exact procedure they need to follow, which if true was probably suggested by shipping companies since customs aren't a shipping company are they? Then DHL should seek to have that corrected. This issue has existed for a long time yet has not been corrected. It will result in less money collected from customers so I guess its not their priority.

Regarding the text quoted in bold, I never said that? They are 2 separate issues. The handling fee is minimum 15 euro regardless of their shipping estimate. Even if the shipping is declared properly on the parcel, the 15 euro fee is still too much for some kind of shipments. It's when you add that fee onto a grossly overestimated + taxed shipping fee that things become ridiculous.

RUDOLF289 · 27-05-2018 04:54PM

Spix,

I knew you would be coming back, you disbelieving Thomas. Can you give me the link you refer to to the DHL HK/China website ?

Also, you can be sure that Customs knows EXACTLY what the officially published tariffs are of every courier company. You obviously have no idea what Customs know. You can be sure, if DHL does not declare the correct value to Customs (not what DHL thinks it should be, but what Customs dictates what it should be), DHL will be penalised. The first "penalty" imposed is that all DHL entries in Ireland go RED or Orange. Secondly the penalties will be very significant. Thirdly, they will get reported to Brussels and a full investigation will take place for ALL EU DHL/Deutsche Post Companies/

The 30% discount you refer to, is the discount that applies - in accordance with Customs Valuation rules - to calculate the CFR EU border costs. Please refer to https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2015.343.01.0558.01.ENG scroll down to (quite far) to ANNEX 23-01
Air transport costs to be included in the customs value. Look for the Column Headed Asia - Zone L, which shows that you add 70% of the total airfreight costs from China to the Customs value.

You still havent figured out that it is really up to the Chinese supplier to ensure that the commercial invoice that accompanies the goods have to be issued in the prescribed format. And hiding behind any and all excuses, like the dog at my homework, or the agent that issued the documents was not aware and any such non sense, is just that NON SENSE! I am involved in significant business to and from China. If I send out a shipment to China that does not meet the Chinese requirements, the problem is mine (and that of my client).

RUDOLF289 · 27-05-2018 05:22PM

spix wrote: »

How can a company not know about its own operations? If they don't know then they should find out fairly easily, unless of course it wouldn't be in their best interest.

It's just ignorance, for whatever reason, intentional or unintentional, doesn't matter. They are overcharging people with the shipping estimates and that's just a fact. I also wonder how frequently their estimate has pushed the parcels value over the 150 duty limit as well and then the buyer wrongly gets charged duty on top of paying extra vat. I'm telling you right now, there is practically no difference in DHL prices between shipping agents in hangzhou, guangzhou, aliexpress, whatever other chinese store that ships overseas you can think of. They're all on the same highly discounted DHL rate, which from my estimate is about 1/4 of what DHL will estimate the shipping cost to be. Theres a few exceptions where the DHL price is again even cheaper Imagine if DHL decided to 'refuse low cost shipping' and then say that shipping cost you $80 when the items total cost including the dhl shipping was only $100. There is no way to defend that, if they're not happy with discounted shipping then perhaps they should stop offering discounted shipping in China instead of screwing over the customers.

Spix,

I apologise for paraphrasing in my post that you are accusing DHL of ripping off customers. I plead justification however on the basis of the highlighted parts of your above post and the general tennure of your postings in this thread.

CeilingFly · 27-05-2018 06:00PM

spix wrote: »

Well to find out if its fair or not, we'd need to know how much DHL is making off that 15 euro fee. I'm saying its not a fair amount for people who are only importing low value items.

Should every retail and service company display their "cost" price? There are so mnay variables. On most input charges, they'll take a profit, on some, they'll take a loss

spix wrote: »

There's DHL express shipping for under €6.50 btw

I think you are thinking that DHL have set that price. I ship parcels to Europe. My EU shipping charge is €9.95 inc vat per order - it costs me anything from €8.43 to €22 +vat depending on the country its going to. The customer won't know that. The customer just sees a 9.95 charge which entices them to buy and I'll make it from a higher than average order size.

RUDOLF289 · 27-05-2018 06:41PM

spix wrote: »

They don't 'have to' add the standard cost, and they don't. They do a 30% discount on it. Which still results almost certainly in a grossly overestimated price as can be seen by how many complaints about this have been posted before. They then re-adjust the price if the customer bothers to prove how much was actually paid, however it would be much simpler in the first place if they just had a more realistic estimation. DHL would rather overcharge 100 people than undercharge 1.

I refer to my previous post. You seem to strongly suggest that DHL make it up as they go along. I have explained in my post that the 30% discount is in accordance with the EU rules for Customs Valuation.

spix · 27-05-2018 09:44PM

CeilingFly wrote: »

Should every retail and service company display their "cost" price? There are so mnay variables. On most input charges, they'll take a profit, on some, they'll take a loss

I think you are thinking that DHL have set that price. I ship parcels to Europe. My EU shipping charge is €9.95 inc vat per order - it costs me anything from €8.43 to €22 +vat depending on the country its going to. The customer won't know that. The customer just sees a 9.95 charge which entices them to buy and I'll make it from a higher than average order size.

If its partially included in the product price that doesn't make any difference (dont think thats the case here since the product price is equal to other sellers), in fact its one reason why a made up shipping cost is not the right way to do things as every seller has different ways to sell their products.

CeilingFly · 27-05-2018 09:52PM

At the end of the day, it was the shipper that failed you by not putting the basic information on the package.

If they ship regularly they will know this.

No use blaming others.

spix · 27-05-2018 09:59PM

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

Spix,

I knew you would be coming back, you disbelieving Thomas. Can you give me the link you refer to to the DHL HK/China website ?

Also, you can be sure that Customs knows EXACTLY what the officially published tariffs are of every courier company. You obviously have no idea what Customs know. You can be sure, if DHL does not declare the correct value to Customs (not what DHL thinks it should be, but what Customs dictates what it should be), DHL will be penalised. The first "penalty" imposed is that all DHL entries in Ireland go RED or Orange. Secondly the penalties will be very significant. Thirdly, they will get reported to Brussels and a full investigation will take place for ALL EU DHL/Deutsche Post Companies/

The 30% discount you refer to, is the discount that applies - in accordance with Customs Valuation rules - to calculate the CFR EU border costs. Please refer to https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2015.343.01.0558.01.ENG scroll down to (quite far) to ANNEX 23-01
Air transport costs to be included in the customs value. Look for the Column Headed Asia - Zone L, which shows that you add 70% of the total airfreight costs from China to the Customs value.

You still havent figured out that it is really up to the Chinese supplier to ensure that the commercial invoice that accompanies the goods have to be issued in the prescribed format. And hiding behind any and all excuses, like the dog at my homework, or the agent that issued the documents was not aware and any such non sense, is just that NON SENSE! I am involved in significant business to and from China. If I send out a shipment to China that does not meet the Chinese requirements, the problem is mine (and that of my client).

DHL don't add 70% of the costs from China if the parcel has no shipping value on it. They are adding 70% of the 'reverse journey' the cost if sending the same parcel from Ireland to China. According to something you posted earlier, it can be done either way. Why are DHL choosing the option which results in the customer paying tax on an amount they know full well is not what they paid for shipping.

Here's the HK pricing http://www.dhl.com.hk/content/dam/downloads/hk/express/shipping/rate_guides/dhl_express_rate_transit_guide_hk_en.pdf

Ireland is considered zone 1 for DHL express worldwide. 26 euro base price for a parcel to Ireland (most sellers will have discounts due to being large volume shippers)

The price from Ireland to HK for the same parcel size/weight is 89 euro. The bigger the parcel gets, the bigger the price discrepancy.

There is no way to agree with this. All DHL would need to do is get their official pricing from the country of origin and calculate off that, and customers would be charged something more in line with what they actually paid for shipping. Maybe not exactly correct but when you're talking being off by at least 3x, that's a big issue.

spix · 27-05-2018 10:02PM

CeilingFly wrote: »

At the end of the day, it was the shipper that failed you by not putting the basic information on the package.

If they ship regularly they will know this.

No use blaming others.

Shipping is not that simple in China, there are lots of third parties involved so the seller might request that but then their agent ignores it as they do things their own way. They also change agents very frequently depending on what rates are offered at the time.

To be fair to customers, all DHL have to do when calculating the cost if its missing, is use their official prices from the country of origin rather than using Irish rates. It makes no sense other than to increase the amount they will be collecting. It will still likely be more than was paid for shipping but its way more realistic.

RUDOLF289 · 27-05-2018 10:20PM

spix wrote: »

DHL don't add 70% of the costs from China if the parcel has no shipping value on it. They are adding 70% of the 'reverse journey' the cost if sending the same parcel from Ireland to China.

Here's the HK pricing http://www.dhl.com.hk/content/dam/downloads/hk/express/shipping/rate_guides/dhl_express_rate_transit_guide_hk_en.pdf

26 euro base price for a parcel to Ireland (most sellers will have discounts due to being large volume shippers)

The price from Ireland to HK for the same parcel size/weight is 89 euro. The bigger the parcel gets, the bigger the price discrepancy.

There is no way to agree with this. All DHL would need to do is get their official pricing from the country of origin and calculate off that, and customers would be charged something more in line with what they actually paid for shipping. Maybe not exactly correct but when you're talking being off by at least 3x, that's a big issue.

Spix,

let's list what we have established sofar ;

1. Revenue is implementing the EU directive on valuation. I have sent you the link. In accordance with EU regulation, in the absence of shipping costs specified on the commercial invoice, the freight cost is calculated on the basis of the official tariff filed by the carrier.
2. The freight costs for airfreight (e.g. courier) shipments from China are calculated @ 70% of the published tariff
3. The tariff you have submitted is the Hong Kong tariff, issued in Hong Kong Dollars. It is NOT from China
4. I am intrigued how you arive at a base cost of 26 Euro. The zone for Ireland is zone 8. According to the DHL Hong Kong Tariff you submitted, the minimum charge for Non Documents is HK$ 584 for 0.5 kgs. HK$ 584 @ the rate of exchange of 1 HKD = 0.109116 EUR the Euro amount is € 63.72
[url]Https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=584&From=HKD&To=EUR[/url]

I am only 40 years in the Logistics Industry, but perhaps my abacus needs updating. I would be interested to know how you arrive at € 26.00 on the basis of the tariff you supplied ?

At the risk of repeating myself, if the supplier shows the freight cost on the commercial invoice, then all this becomes moot. Making excuses "Shipping is not that simple in China, there are lots of third parties involved so the seller might request that but then their agent ignores it as they do things their own way." simply ignores the fact that the supplier abdicates his/her responsibility or hides behind somebody not following their instructions. Neither DHL nor Customs can accept that argument. They can only rely on the documentation accompanying the shipment.

Looking forward to your next post.

spix · 27-05-2018 10:27PM

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

Spix,

let's list what we have established sofar ;

1. Revenue is implementing the EU directive on valuation. I have sent you the link. In accordance with EU regulation, in the absence of shipping costs specified on the commercial invoice, the freight cost is calculated on the basis of the official tariff filed by the carrier.
2. The freight costs for airfreight (e.g. courier) shipments from China are calculated @ 70% of the published tariff
3. The tariff you have submitted is the Hong Kong tariff, issued in Hong Kong Dollars. It is NOT from China
4. I am intrigued how you arive at a base cost of 26 Euro. The zone for Ireland is zone 8. According to the DHL Hong Kong Tariff you submitted, the minimum charge for Non Documents is HK$ 584 for 0.5 kgs. HK$ 584 @ the rate of exchange of 1 HKD = 0.109116 EUR the Euro amount is € 63.72
[URL]Https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=584&From=HKD&To=EUR[/URL]

I am only 40 years in the Logistics Industry, but perhaps my abacus needs updating. I would be interested to know how you arrive at € 26.00 on the basis of the tariff you supplied ?

At the risk of repeating myself, if the supplier shows the freight cost on the commercial invoice, then all this becomes moot. Making excuses "Shipping is not that simple in China, there are lots of third parties involved so the seller might request that but then their agent ignores it as they do things their own way." simply ignores the fact that the supplier abdicates his/her responsibility or hides behind somebody not following their instructions. Neither DHL nor Customs can accept that argument. They can only rely on the documentation accompanying the shipment.

Looking forward to your next post.

#1 DHL are Not using the rates from China to Ireland, they are using the rates from Ireland to China which as I'm sure anyone would agree makes zero sense. They are doing that because they are allowed to do it. However it's wrong and if you agree with it you're clearly biased.
"If your shipper does not include the Freight Charge on the shipping invoice provided to DHL Express, then Customs will assign a transport charge based on DHL Express export rate to the origin country with a 30% discount."

#2 Same as #1 are you missing something?

#3 I don't speak Chinese so I used the HK english website, but DHL rates for China/HK are similar if not cheaper in China. Chinese shippers use both of them. I'll look on the Chinese website later when I get time. EDIT - After failing to find the official Chinese prices, just spoke to a Chinese shipping agent based in hangzhou. They said pretty much all Chinese stores use Hong Kong DHL for international shipments. It's slightly cheaper because DHL use the HK airport, so by using the HK service they don't need to transport the parcel far domestically. When you buy something with DHL in China, the parcel is first brought to HK by a shipping agent then picked up by DHL in HK.

#4 Look closer. Ireland is only considered Zone 8 for guaranteed delivery by 10:30AM next day. Nobody uses that, just regular Express which Ireland is Zone 1.

satguy · 27-05-2018 10:40PM

I never use DHL, got burned by them before.

If I buy from a non EU site, I ask if the use DHL before I buy.

I find that DHL are the like Clampers of the courier world,
"just doing their job, but making tons of dosh, at our expense" ..

RUDOLF289 · 27-05-2018 11:13PM

spix wrote: »

#1 DHL are Not using the rates from China to Ireland, they are using the rates from Ireland to China which as I'm sure anyone would agree makes zero sense. They are doing that because they are allowed to do it. However it's wrong and if you agree with it you're clearly biased.
"If your shipper does not include the Freight Charge on the shipping invoice provided to DHL Express, then Customs will assign a transport charge based on DHL Express export rate to the origin country with a 30% discount."

#2 Same as #1 are you missing something?

#3 I don't speak Chinese so I used the HK english website, but DHL rates for China/HK are similar if not cheaper in China. Chinese shippers use both of them. I'll look on the Chinese website later when I get time.

#4 Look closer. Ireland is only considered Zone 8 for guaranteed delivery by 10:30AM next day. Nobody uses that, just regular Express which Ireland is Zone 1.

1. DHL are using the import tariff and in the absence of hard evidence provided by you, e.g. communication from DHL or Revenue to the contrary you can moan all you like, you are wrong. And yes I am clearly biased. I am biased in favour of applying the rules correctly. You are only presenting conjecture, not hard facts.

2. Perhaps you simply are not prepared to accept what an industry professional with 40 years experience is advising you. And a few other contributors to the thread obviously are wrong too.

3. Ireland is Zone 8. If you follow your logic then a 09:00 AM delivery reduces to zone 1 and becomes the same price as World Wide Express, which is also denoted by a 1. Does that make sense to you ? If it does, then I am clearly mistaken

4. You obviously are very sure of your "facts". Let me ask you; "Have you considered starting an action against DHL and Revenue for blatant overstating declared values" ? Because if you are correct and negotiate a fee from anybody joining your action, of 10% of the money's overcharged as a result of mis-declaring values, you would be an instant millionaire. Guaranteed.

I have a funny feeling however your action would be doomed to fail.

RUDOLF289 · 27-05-2018 11:14PM

satguy wrote: »

I never use DHL, got burned by them before.

If I buy from a non EU site, I ask if the use DHL before I buy.

I find that DHL are the like Clampers of the courier world,
"just doing their job, but making tons of dosh, at our expense" ..

Did your supplier show the freight cost on the commercial invoice ?

spix · 27-05-2018 11:39PM

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

1. DHL are using the import tariff and in the absence of hard evidence provided by you, e.g. communication from DHL or Revenue to the contrary you can moan all you like, you are wrong. And yes I am clearly biased. I am biased in favour of applying the rules correctly. You are only presenting conjecture, not hard facts.

2. Perhaps you simply are not prepared to accept what an industry professional with 40 years experience is advising you. And a few other contributors to the thread obviously are wrong too.

3. Ireland is Zone 8. If you follow your logic then a 09:00 AM delivery reduces to zone 1 and becomes the same price as World Wide Express, which is also denoted by a 1. Does that make sense to you ? If it does, then I am clearly mistaken

4. You obviously are very sure of your "facts". Let me ask you; "Have you considered starting an action against DHL and Revenue for blatant overstating declared values" ? Because if you are correct and negotiate a fee from anybody joining your action, of 10% of the money's overcharged as a result of mis-declaring values, you would be an instant millionaire. Guaranteed.

I have a funny feeling however your action would be doomed to fail.

None of your points make any sense. Do you work for DHL? Can't repeat myself anymore.

It's clear what DHL is doing. You even posted this earlier now completely ignoring it

for the same journey or reverse journey and for the same type of consignment)."

DHL is choosing to use the reverse journey, Do you wonder why? I don't wonder, I know its because they get more $$$$ Give 1 reason why it would make sense for DHL to use the export rate to 'guess' how much the shipping cost you when they have the country of origin rates easily available.

You obviously didn't look at the HK pdf pricing properly the first time, and not this time either. The prices for the specialized services ie guaranteed 9AM are not shown but says there will be additional surcharges. Ireland is Zone 1 for regular dhl express from HK and those are the prices shown in the PDF.

RUDOLF289 · 27-05-2018 11:46PM

spix wrote: »

None of your points make any sense. Do you work for DHL? Can't repeat myself anymore.

It's clear what DHL is doing. You even posted this earlier now completely ignoring it DHL is choosing to use the reverse journey, Do you wonder why? I don't wonder, I know its because they get more $$$$ Give 1 reason why it would make sense for DHL to use the export rate to 'guess' how much the shipping cost you when they have the country of origin rates easily available.

You obviously didn't look at the HK pdf pricing properly the first time, and not this time either. The prices for the specialized services ie guaranteed 9AM are not shown but says there will be additional surcharges. Ireland is Zone 1 for regular dhl express from HK.

You obviously have missed the post where I made the point that DHL is a major competitor in my industry. You are wrong. And you won't listen. The issue is with your suppliers for not correctly issueing their documentation.

So, take your gripe up somewhere else.

spix · 27-05-2018 11:51PM

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

You obviously have missed the post where I made the point that DHL is a major competitor in my industry. You are wrong. And you won't listen. The issue is with your suppliers for not correctly issueing their documentation.

So, take your gripe up somewhere else.

Hmmm. I have no issue with my 'suppliers' This has only happened to me once before, once and never again because I don't use DHL unless there's no other option. But DHL are still doing the same trick for how many other oblivious online shoppers.

I thought you were done replying btw.

Next time you shop online from China, I'd recommend not choosing DHL. I know its fast + affordable but there's a very good chance you'll be in for a shock when it lands in Ireland. Don't say I didn't warn you :-)

RUDOLF289 · 27-05-2018 11:54PM

spix wrote: »

Hmmm. I have no issue with my 'suppliers' This has only happened to me once before, once and never again. But DHL are still doing the same trick for how many other oblivious online shoppers.

I thought you were done replying btw.

Next time you shop online from China, I'd recommend not choosing DHL. I know its fast + affordable but there's a very good chance you'll be in for a shock when it lands in Ireland. Don't say I didn't warn you :-)

You are wrong. The issue belongs with the suppliers. If they do their job correctly, then DHL can use the values on the commercial invoice. End of story.

spix · 28-05-2018 12:02AM

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

You are wrong. The issue belongs with the suppliers. If they do their job correctly, then DHL can use the values on the commercial invoice. End of story.

Keep making excuses for a company which is obviously taking advantage of the situation to charge more. Oh look, there's no shipping on the invoice. Even though this parcel has come from China, let's calculate the shipping based on our prices to ship this parcel from Ireland to China (shhh don't tell anyone but they are much higher) You make such a big deal about shipping not being declared properly when the parcel goes through several third parties before being handed to DHL, but this doesn't bother you at all?

Again, why don't DHL use the official country of origin rates when making their calculations. Give a reason, please. Even then, they should know that even those official prices are more than was paid. But 1 step at a time.

RUDOLF289 · 28-05-2018 12:08AM

spix wrote: »

Keep making excuses for a company which is obviously taking advantage of the situation to charge more. Oh look, there's no shipping on the invoice. Even though this parcel has come from China, let's calculate the shipping based on our prices to ship this parcel from Ireland to China (shhh don't tell anyone but they are much higher) You make such a big deal about shipping not being declared properly when the parcel goes through several third parties before being handed to DHL, but this doesn't bother you at all?

Again, why don't DHL use the official country of origin rates when making their calculations. Give a reason, please. Even then, they should know that even those official prices are more than was paid. But 1 step at a time.

You are wrong. The issue belongs with the suppliers. If they do their job correctly, then DHL can use the values on the commercial invoice. End of story.

DHL overcharging.. see mod warning post #74

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