DHL overcharging.. see mod warning post #74

ozmo

Bought an item for $45 + 6 postage (DHL wasn’t mentioned). Package came with documented costs displayed on front.

DHL delivered and charged me
26 Euros for Customs
14 Warehouse charge

Total duty was a few cents more than 40 Euros...

More expensive than the item-

I had driver cash when he arrived or he was taking package back- felt scammy as he wouldn’t take card only cash and no receipt.

Does anyone know how I can challenge these charges- it doesn’t sound reasonable at all.

Mod:
Note on thread Mod warning in post #74.

Caranica

ozmo wrote: »

Bought an item for $45 + 6 postage (DHL wasn’t mentioned). Package came with documented costs displayed on front.

DHL delivered and charged me
26 Euros for Customs
14 Warehouse charge

Total duty was a few cents more than 40 Euros...

More expensive than the item-

I had driver cash when he arrived or he was taking package back- felt scammy as he wouldn’t take card only cash and no receipt.

Does anyone know how I can challenge these charges- it doesn’t sound reasonable at all.

Where did they overcharge. You imported something of a value over the €22 duty free limit hence the customs charge. DHL then charge you for administering the charge. Caveat emptor

whiterebel

ozmo wrote: »

Bought an item for $45 + 6 postage (DHL wasn’t mentioned). Package came with documented costs displayed on front.

DHL delivered and charged me
26 Euros for Customs
14 Warehouse charge

Total duty was a few cents more than 40 Euros...

More expensive than the item-

I had driver cash when he arrived or he was taking package back- felt scammy as he wouldn’t take card only cash and no receipt.

Does anyone know how I can challenge these charges- it doesn’t sound reasonable at all.

You can ask DHL for a copy of the customs entry, which shows the amounts used to get to the VAT payable. You’re doing well if the accepted $6 shipping via DHL, express couriers charge far more than that, which would put up the VAT even more. They also charge for customs clearance and paying out the VAT on your behalf.

dudara

Moved to Online Buying & Auctions. They have a lot of experience with this

dudara

Suckit

Caranica wrote: »

Where did they overcharge. You imported something of a value over the €22 duty free limit hence the customs charge. DHL then charge you for administering the charge. Caveat emptor

$51 = roughly €42
Customs charge should be roughly €9.66
'handling/warehouse' charge = €14
Total DHL - €23.66

@OP
The seller must not have displayed the shipping charge on the outside of the package. DHL use their own shipping calculator to estimate how much it would cost.
Email the seller for an invoice with the shipping cost and contact DHL with it.

ozmo

Suckit wrote: »

$51 = roughly €42
Customs charge should be roughly €9.66
'handling/warehouse' charge = €14
Total DHL - €23.66

@OP
The seller must not have displayed the shipping charge on the outside of the package. DHL use their own shipping calculator to estimate how much it would cost.
Email the seller for an invoice with the shipping cost and contact DHL with it.

Yes - that was it - seller didn’t put shipping on the label- and so dhl estimated the 45 dollar package as warranting 75 euros shipping fee!

Actual cost of shipping was euros 6.50 and I have the receipt.

So after their handling fees etc I’m due refund of 14 euros which I’m not sure I’m going bother chasing up.

Never going to pay for faster shipping from China again in case dhl and their excessive warehouse charges hits again.

whiterebel

ozmo wrote: »

Yes - that was it - seller didn’t put shipping on the label- and so dhl estimated the 45 dollar package as warranting 75 euros shipping fee!

Actual cost of shipping was euros 6.50 and I have the receipt.

So after their handling fees etc I’m due refund of 14 euros which I’m not sure I’m going bother chasing up.

Never going to pay for faster shipping from China again in case dhl and their excessive warehouse charges hits again.

DHL lay out the procedure quite clearly on their website. It is their published charge, less 30% as the figure to be used. The shipper should show the charge on their invoice, and they know well that they should. Problem is customs wouldn't accept their figures. You don't really believe that you would get a shipment by express from China for €6.50, do you? That wouldn't even pay for pick up, never mind at least 3 flights, and delivery at this end. It doesn't matter to the courier what the value is, they charge by weight or dimensions, whichever is bigger. The value would only matter to them for insurance purposes. Customs don't care either, once VAT/Duty is payable, it is payable on the cost of the product, and the cost of shipping.
If you bring in shipments with VAT or duty payable, you have to be prepared to pay customs clearance/admin charges on €10-15.

ozmo

whiterebel wrote: »

DHL lay out the procedure quite clearly on their

But I never chose dhl or knew it would be handled by them - and yes it really was free shipping (6-8 weeks) or 6:50 for 2 week delivery.

This wasn’t a few days express dhl postage delivery I requested.

I am ok paying duty of course as a post would charge- but 40 Euros duty on a 40 Euros packet is excessive.

spix

whiterebel wrote: »

DHL lay out the procedure quite clearly on their website. It is their published charge, less 30% as the figure to be used. The shipper should show the charge on their invoice, and they know well that they should. Problem is customs wouldn't accept their figures. You don't really believe that you would get a shipment by express from China for €6.50, do you? That wouldn't even pay for pick up, never mind at least 3 flights, and delivery at this end. It doesn't matter to the courier what the value is, they charge by weight or dimensions, whichever is bigger. The value would only matter to them for insurance purposes. Customs don't care either, once VAT/Duty is payable, it is payable on the cost of the product, and the cost of shipping.
If you bring in shipments with VAT or duty payable, you have to be prepared to pay customs clearance/admin charges on €10-15.

Most sellers who use DHL have contracts which gives them massive discounts or they could be charged a monthly fee etc so each parcel doesn't actually have its own charge. So it is possible it only costs them 6.50.

whiterebel

spix wrote: »

Most sellers who use DHL have contracts which gives them massive discounts or they could be charged a monthly fee etc so each parcel doesn't actually have its own charge. So it is possible it only costs them 6.50.

All complete guesswork then. I've never come across anything remotely like that suggetsed system. Again, do the maths on running 2 vans , and probably 3 aircraft for €6.50? More likely that they are making the product for pittance, and absordimg most of the courier cost to make the sale. They then dont declare the cost so the price looks better for customs. If the shipper actually declared the price as DDU - Delivered duty unpaid there would be no questions asked.

ozmo

whiterebel wrote: »

...do the maths on running 2 vans , and probably 3 aircraft for €6.50? More likely that they are making the product for pittance, and absordimg most of the courier cost to make the sale.....

I've received a few items by courier before like this - and only paid 6 euros or so postage - so its not the first time.

Its not DHL normal speeds - it still took about 2 weeks to get from China.

At a guess I think it seems to be China post will send it at whatever system they have - and if DHL or whoever has spare capacity at the time they deliver it the final leg of the journey for what ever they can get after it comes to Europe.

They made their money back anyway on the vat handling charge - so maybe that's their angle.

spix

whiterebel wrote: »

All complete guesswork then. I've never come across anything remotely like that suggetsed system. Again, do the maths on running 2 vans , and probably 3 aircraft for €6.50? More likely that they are making the product for pittance, and absordimg most of the courier cost to make the sale. They then dont declare the cost so the price looks better for customs. If the shipper actually declared the price as DDU - Delivered duty unpaid there would be no questions asked.

Don't forget to add the 15 euro dhl 'admin fee'. There are sneaky ways for companies to make profit on parcels. Not to mention the plane isn't just carrying your tiny package, neither are the vans.

Shipping in China is extremely competitive, you can get domestic 1-2 day express delivery across thousands of miles for literally 1 euro.

If you ever used Chinese shipping agents you would be surprised at the cost. The base DHL fee with all of them is around $20 and that includes their charge for consolidating several items into 1 parcel and profit from the shipping fee.

spix

ozmo wrote: »

I've received a few items by courier before like this - and only paid 6 euros or so postage - so its not the first time.

Its not DHL normal speeds - it still took about 2 weeks to get from China.

At a guess I think it seems to be China post will send it at whatever system they have - and if DHL or whoever has spare capacity at the time they deliver it the final leg of the journey for what ever they can get after it comes to Europe.

They made their money back anyway on the vat handling charge - so maybe that's their angle.

Whats the tracking number. I thought DHL only do an express service from China, the delay could have been the sellers delay in getting it to DHL. My last DHL parcel took a total of 37 hours for delivery from the time of pick up in Hong Kong.

ozmo

spix wrote: »

Whats the tracking number..

Item was from Banggood - they shipped it next day - I chose tracked postage for an extra 6 euros.
Seems came from China to NL via "Shipping Method: NL Post Tracked" - I received it from a very large DHL courier van in Dublin.

2018-04-23 16:40 DUBLIN, DELIVERED
2018-04-20 12:12 DUBLIN, ITEM IN DEPOT
2018-04-20 12:06 DUBLIN, ATTEMPTED DELIVERY, NO ANSWER AT ADDRESS
2018-04-20 10:49 DUBLIN, ATTEMPTED DELIVERY, NO ANSWER AT ADDRESS
2018-04-20 07:57 DUBLIN, ITEM IS ON DELIVERY
2018-04-19 15:54 DUBLIN MAIL CENTRE, DUBLIN 12, ITEM HAS BEEN ACCEPTED
2018-04-19 15:54 DUBLIN MAIL CENTRE, DUBLIN 12, ITEM IS IN TRANSIT
2018-04-19 15:54 DUBLIN MAIL CENTRE, DUBLIN 12, ITEM RECEIVED
Origin : Netherlands - Tracking consuming: 10364 ms
2018-04-23 16:40 The item has been delivered successfully
2018-04-20 10:49 The delivery of the item was unsuccessful
2018-04-20 07:57 Receive item at delivery office (Inb)
2018-04-19 15:54 The item has been processed in the country of destination
2018-04-18 09:54 The item has arrived in the country of destination
2018-04-11 17:38 The item is on transport to the country of destination
2018-04-11 16:21 The item is at the PostNL sorting center
2018-04-11 16:21 The item is processed at the PostNL sorting center

Order Submitted Apr/08/2018 18:11:54
Order Processing Apr/08/2018 18:13:26
Shipped Apr/09/2018 06:06:12

spix

ozmo wrote: »

Item was from Banggood - they shipped it next day - I chose tracked postage for an extra 6 euros.
Seems came from China to NL via "Shipping Method: NL Post Tracked" - I received it from a very large DHL courier van in Dublin.

2018-04-23 16:40 DUBLIN, DELIVERED
2018-04-20 12:12 DUBLIN, ITEM IN DEPOT
2018-04-20 12:06 DUBLIN, ATTEMPTED DELIVERY, NO ANSWER AT ADDRESS
2018-04-20 10:49 DUBLIN, ATTEMPTED DELIVERY, NO ANSWER AT ADDRESS
2018-04-20 07:57 DUBLIN, ITEM IS ON DELIVERY
2018-04-19 15:54 DUBLIN MAIL CENTRE, DUBLIN 12, ITEM HAS BEEN ACCEPTED
2018-04-19 15:54 DUBLIN MAIL CENTRE, DUBLIN 12, ITEM IS IN TRANSIT
2018-04-19 15:54 DUBLIN MAIL CENTRE, DUBLIN 12, ITEM RECEIVED
Origin : Netherlands - Tracking consuming: 10364 ms
2018-04-23 16:40 The item has been delivered successfully
2018-04-20 10:49 The delivery of the item was unsuccessful
2018-04-20 07:57 Receive item at delivery office (Inb)
2018-04-19 15:54 The item has been processed in the country of destination
2018-04-18 09:54 The item has arrived in the country of destination
2018-04-11 17:38 The item is on transport to the country of destination
2018-04-11 16:21 The item is at the PostNL sorting center
2018-04-11 16:21 The item is processed at the PostNL sorting center

Order Submitted Apr/08/2018 18:11:54
Order Processing Apr/08/2018 18:13:26
Shipped Apr/09/2018 06:06:12

That's very odd. The tracking implies its a regular post item. I wonder if dhl take some of the parcels held in the depot due to failed delivery, then recalculate the customs themselves

whiterebel

spix wrote: »

Don't forget to add the 15 euro dhl 'admin fee'. There are sneaky ways for companies to make profit on parcels. Not to mention the plane isn't just carrying your tiny package, neither are the vans.

Shipping in China is extremely competitive, you can get domestic 1-2 day express delivery across thousands of miles for literally 1 euro.

If you ever used Chinese shipping agents you would be surprised at the cost. The base DHL fee with all of them is around $20 and that includes their charge for consolidating several items into 1 parcel and profit from the shipping fee.

Admin fee is for having an account with Revenue for VAT/Duty, usually at least a million euros. They have to pay someone to go through the supplier invoice, find the correct tarrif code, do a customs entry, send it electronically, and then arrange for inspection if necessary. Invoice it, and send it out for delivery, collecting the necessary customs charges. Do you expect them tom do that for free? It isn't part of the service, never has been. Its an integral part of importimg from outside the EU.
An Post charge €10, which is too cheap, but they have the luxury of screwing everyone else with increased stamp costs to make up for their losses. All the couriers charge about €15.

Suckit

whiterebel wrote: »

An Post charge €10, which is too cheap, but they have the luxury of screwing everyone else with increased stamp costs to make up for their losses. All the couriers charge about €15.

I think An Post charge is now €12.50. They can increase it whenever they want though. It was €6 in the first half 2015. Has had quite a few increases since then.

spix

whiterebel wrote: »

Admin fee is for having an account with Revenue for VAT/Duty, usually at least a million euros. They have to pay someone to go through the supplier invoice, find the correct tarrif code, do a customs entry, send it electronically, and then arrange for inspection if necessary. Invoice it, and send it out for delivery, collecting the necessary customs charges. Do you expect them tom do that for free? It isn't part of the service, never has been. Its an integral part of importimg from outside the EU.
An Post charge €10, which is too cheap, but they have the luxury of screwing everyone else with increased stamp costs to make up for their losses. All the couriers charge about €15.

Majority of parcels are under the duty limit and fast tracked yet still get charged 15 euro. If you think it takes them more than a couple of minutes to do that... whats that person getting paid an hour I wonder.

whiterebel

spix wrote: »

Majority of parcels are under the duty limit and fast tracked yet still get charged 15 euro. If you think it takes them more than a couple of minutes to do that... whats that person getting paid an hour I wonder.

What do you mean "fast tracked"?

spix

whiterebel wrote: »

What do you mean "fast tracked"?

The vast majority of parcels simply have their value looked at, then add 23% vat + 15 euro, it could even be done automatically before parcel lands in Ireland judging by the tracking I see on my parcel (custom status in Ireland was updated whilst parcel was still in HK) The entire customs process completed in 30minutes probably along with hundreds of other parcels.


Very few parcels will be high value and need tarrif codes look at or contents examined. And don't forget 15 euro is the minimum fee, for those high value parcels which take more time, the fee is 2.5%.

whiterebel

Have you got any proof to back up these serious allegations of fraud?

spix

whiterebel wrote: »

Have you got any proof to back up these serious allegations of fraud?

What allegations of fraud? Well in OPs case it could very well be fraud since his parcel wasn't actually imported by DHL.


They're obviously allowed to charge the fee but that doesn't mean its a fair fee. Fyi, this admin fee according to dhl is actually called an advanced payment fee and is there because of the risk dhl takes by paying taxes in advance, not the great amount of work required to clear the parcel.

whiterebel

spix wrote: »

What allegations of fraud? Well in OPs case it could very well be fraud since his parcel wasn't actually imported by DHL.


They're obviously allowed to charge the fee but that doesn't mean its a fair fee. Fyi, this admin fee according to dhl is actually called an advanced payment fee and is there because of the risk dhl takes by paying taxes in advance, not the great amount of work required to clear the parcel.

You seem to be suggesting that courier companies aren't doing customs entries, just estimating taxes and then collecting the VAT and admin charge?

The OP quite clearly stated that DHL were the company that brought in the parcel, and charged for it. They also confirmed that the exporter hadn't shown the shipping charge on the paperwork, so DHL used the system documented on their website to calculate the charge. The shipper should certainly know better than to send it with no freight amount on it.

FYI, the couriers all call it something different, depending on their own invoicing systems. Take your pick from admin/warehousing/customs clearance/disbursements/Outlay fee or whatever. Still work that needs to be done, and they are entitled to charge for their time.

spix

whiterebel wrote: »

You seem to be suggesting that courier companies aren't doing customs entries, just estimating taxes and then collecting the VAT and admin charge?

The OP quite clearly stated that DHL were the company that brought in the parcel, and charged for it. They also confirmed that the exporter hadn't shown the shipping charge on the paperwork, so DHL used the system documented on their website to calculate the charge. The shipper should certainly know better than to send it with no freight amount on it.

FYI, the couriers all call it something different, depending on their own invoicing systems. Take your pick from admin/warehousing/customs clearance/disbursements/Outlay fee or whatever. Still work that needs to be done, and they are entitled to charge for their time.

There are no duties due on parcels under 150 value. The sender signs a form saying the declaration is true so very few have tariff codes or anything like that looked at. This is normal with all importers including ones that go directly through revenue, all parcels can't be scrutinized as it would cost too much money to employee enough people. It's a better business move to just slap a flat fee on majority of parcels. The 15 euro fee certainly isn't fair on people using DHL for low value shipments though, seeing as it is actually value based, the minimum fee is too high.

For example let's say you buy something ~50 euro and use DHL. Looking at gearbest now and found something which is 50 euro and 13 euro shipping by DHL, not a small item either. There's a good chance DHL will overestimate the shipping cost, tax the total and add a 15 euro fee. Suddenly that 50 euro item now cost 100+ because of DHLs overestimate of shipping cost greatly increasing the taxes and the 15 euro/25% 'advance payment fee' (higher value parcels only pay 2.5% fee) this definitely isn't fair for the buyer.

Shipping in China is complicated, most often its not dealt with directly by the seller rather they deal with shipping agents who have contracts with various shipping companies. So they often don't have the cost available to them to declare.


Even if DHL don't have the shipment cost available to them and its up to the seller to declare it, they should still know the approximate amount buyers pay for the parcel size coming from China. From my experience they grossly overestimate the amount paid, assuming its being sent from a private sender paying the full DHL china cost rather than from a big company with big discounts which is obviously the category most parcels fall into.

All this is irrelevant in OPs case though since DHL wans't actually the courier or importer, looks like they took over the parcel after the initial failed delivery.

whiterebel

spix wrote: »

There are no duties due on parcels under 150 value. The sender signs a form saying the declaration is true so very few have tariff codes or anything like that looked at. This is normal with all importers including ones that go directly through revenue, all parcels can't be scrutinized as it would cost too much money to employee enough people. It's a better business move to just slap a flat fee on majority of parcels. The 15 euro fee certainly isn't fair on people using DHL for low value shipments though, seeing as it is actually value based, the minimum fee is too high.

Shipping in China is complicated, most often its not dealt with directly by the seller rather they deal with shipping agents who have contracts with various shipping companies. So they often don't have the cost available to them to declare.


Even if DHL don't have the shipment cost available to them and its up to the seller to declare it, they should still know the approximate amount buyers pay for the parcel size coming from China. From my experience they grossly overestimate the amount paid, assuming its being sent from a private sender paying the full DHL china cost rather than from a big company with big discounts which is obviously the category most parcels fall into.

All this is irrelevant in OPs case though since DHL wans't actually the courier or importer, looks like they took over the parcel after the initial failed delivery.

VAT is payable on a value of over €22, Duty over €150.

I would seriously suggest you look through the VAT/Duty thread here ;
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055862554,

because almost everyhing you are postimg is incorrect. The rest is guesswork.

spix

whiterebel wrote: »

VAT is payable on a valie of over €22, Duty over €150.

I would serkoisly suggest you look through the VAT/Duty thread here ;
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055862554,

because almost everyhing you are postimg is incorrect. The rest is guesswork.

Sorry don't think you read my post properly, I know vat is due over 22 euro but thats not the point and I also know how shipping with dhl works in China as I've spoken to shipping agents there. You said I'm accusing DHL of fraud because they don't examine every parcel. Most parcels are quickly taxed on the declared value and this could even be done automatically with the bar codes. The 15 euro fee is there only because its a way to make money, DHL are a business so if there's a chance to charge you, of course they will do that. It's not because it takes a great amount of effort to import or because of the risk they take by paying in advance (because you'll be getting legal letters if you dont pay, and often they won't even give you the parcel until they do) The charge is legal, that's all that matters but doesn't mean its fair.

RUDOLF289

spix wrote: »

Sorry don't think you read my post properly, I know vat is due over 22 euro but thats not the point and I also know how shipping with dhl works in China as I've spoken to shipping agents there. You said I'm accusing DHL of fraud because they don't examine every parcel. Most parcels are quickly taxed on the declared value and this could even be done automatically with the bar codes. The 15 euro fee is there only because its a way to make money, DHL are a business so if there's a chance to charge you, of course they will do that. It's not because it takes a great amount of effort to import or because of the risk they take by paying in advance (because you'll be getting legal letters if you dont pay, and often they won't even give you the parcel until they do) The charge is legal, that's all that matters but doesn't mean its fair.

So what is fair? In order to clear the shipments DHL has to operate a TAN account with Revenue. This is a credit facility underwritten by a bank guarantee. That is the first direct cost to DHL.
Operating the TAN account requires management, i.e. staff. Money's deducted from the TAN need to be matched against moneys collected from the consignee. And before you say "it's all automated" just think of the investment required to develop and maintain the automated processes. And it still requires "human intervention".
And then there is the actual customs entry that needs to be prepared and processed. Again it is driven by a high degree of automation but still requires staff to prepare and process the customs entry.
To put it into context, if you employ a customs broker to clear shipments on your behalf at a port or airport you will pay upwards of € 40.00 possibly as high as € 75.00 per shipment. So you tell me, is a fee of €15.00 fair?
As to the values declared to Customs by Revenue, the rules are very clear. Unless the commercial invoice accompanying the goods shows the correct INCO terms and / or the freight cost as a seperate item costs, as a customs clearance agent you have no choice but to add the freight costs to the value over which Duty and/or VAT has to be paid. It is therefore a rule, in the absence of clear evidence, that the freight cost is based on a (high) percentage of the standard tariff. The only way to avoid this is to make sure that your supplier issues a correct invoice to go with the shipment.

marklazarcovic

It's not an post or dhl calculating the customs charge,only customs officers can do it,the only charge applied by the courier is the admin fee which varies. And it's required as there is a lot of admin work involved. Don't think any take card payments,cash or cheque only.

Also a receipt is usually on the parcel put there by customs in sticker form.

RUDOLF289

spix wrote: »

There are no duties due on parcels under 150 value. The sender signs a form saying the declaration is true so very few have tariff codes or anything like that looked at. This is normal with all importers including ones that go directly through revenue, all parcels can't be scrutinized as it would cost too much money to employee enough people. It's a better business move to just slap a flat fee on majority of parcels. The 15 euro fee certainly isn't fair on people using DHL for low value shipments though, seeing as it is actually value based, the minimum fee is too high.

For example let's say you buy something ~50 euro and use DHL. Looking at gearbest now and found something which is 50 euro and 13 euro shipping by DHL, not a small item either. There's a good chance DHL will overestimate the shipping cost, tax the total and add a 15 euro fee. Suddenly that 50 euro item now cost 100+ because of DHLs overestimate of shipping cost greatly increasing the taxes and the 15 euro/25% 'advance payment fee' (higher value parcels only pay 2.5% fee) this definitely isn't fair for the buyer.

Shipping in China is complicated, most often its not dealt with directly by the seller rather they deal with shipping agents who have contracts with various shipping companies. So they often don't have the cost available to them to declare.


Even if DHL don't have the shipment cost available to them and its up to the seller to declare it, they should still know the approximate amount buyers pay for the parcel size coming from China. From my experience they grossly overestimate the amount paid, assuming its being sent from a private sender paying the full DHL china cost rather than from a big company with big discounts which is obviously the category most parcels fall into.

All this is irrelevant in OPs case though since DHL wans't actually the courier or importer, looks like they took over the parcel after the initial failed delivery.

Be very clear. Unless the freight cost is shown as a seperate line on the commercial invoice, the customs broker has no choice but to add freight costs. Therefore DHL - in the absence of hard evidence - has to add the standard tariff freight cost. End of argument. If you disagree you have to take your case to Revenue and submit proof that the value declared is wrong.
To suggest that DHL (or other couriers) are taking liberties by charging for a service provided is seriously flawed and demonstrates a lack of understanding of Customs rules and regulation plus the work involved to process customs entries, bank guarantees required etc.
I am not a fan of DHL. They are a major competitor in my industry. However, there is a real cost involved in providing a customs clearance service. And where I come from only the sun goes up for nothing.

whiterebel

marklazarcovic wrote: »

It's not an post or dhl calculating the customs charge,only customs officers can do it,the only charge applied by the courier is the admin fee which varies. And it's required as there is a lot of admin work involved. Don't think any take card payments,cash or cheque only.

Also a receipt is usually on the parcel put there by customs in sticker form.

Im not sure what you mean hy the first line. Whoever prepares the entry in An Post/DHL/Fedex puts in the figures for cost, insurance and freight and the system will work out VAT and duty, if applicable. All duty rates are set by the EU, and Ireland sets its own VAT rates.
A customs officer won't go near it in most cases, unless if goes for paperwork exam, or red channel for paperwork and physical examination.
All processes are approved and subject to scrutiny by Revenue.

marklazarcovic

whiterebel wrote: »

Im not sure what you mean hy the first line. Whoever prepares the entry in An Post/DHL/Fedex puts in the figures for cost, insurance and freight and the system will work out VAT and duty, if applicable. All duty rates are set by the EU, and Ireland sets its own VAT rates.
A customs officer won't go near it in most cases, unless if goes for paperwork exam, or red channel for paperwork and physical examination.
All processes are approved and subject to scrutiny by Revenue.

I see it all the time,it's customs officers who open packages and decide if a item is worth more than what it's officially costing,not a courier company, nothing to do with them,this is why the delay in reaching a customer sometimes, customs can't decide right away in sorting depots what to charge so do research then send out for delivery,a lot of the time it's decided once opened there and then.

Obviously this is for cases where a item is pretending to cost less than it does, particular regions send post not declaring proper value all the time. I suspect the bangood item is one of those items. And as such ,it's only a customs officer who can declare what's owed to revenue,it's never the courier.

spix

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

So what is fair? In order to clear the shipments DHL has to operate a TAN account with Revenue. This is a credit facility underwritten by a bank guarantee. That is the first direct cost to DHL.
Operating the TAN account requires management, i.e. staff. Money's deducted from the TAN need to be matched against moneys collected from the consignee. And before you say "it's all automated" just think of the investment required to develop and maintain the automated processes. And it still requires "human intervention".
And then there is the actual customs entry that needs to be prepared and processed. Again it is driven by a high degree of automation but still requires staff to prepare and process the customs entry.
To put it into context, if you employ a customs broker to clear shipments on your behalf at a port or airport you will pay upwards of € 40.00 possibly as high as € 75.00 per shipment. So you tell me, is a fee of €15.00 fair?
As to the values declared to Customs by Revenue, the rules are very clear. Unless the commercial invoice accompanying the goods shows the correct INCO terms and / or the freight cost as a seperate item costs, as a customs clearance agent you have no choice but to add the freight costs to the value over which Duty and/or VAT has to be paid. It is therefore a rule, in the absence of clear evidence, that the freight cost is based on a (high) percentage of the standard tariff. The only way to avoid this is to make sure that your supplier issues a correct invoice to go with the shipment.

Well to find out if its fair or not, we'd need to know how much DHL is making off that 15 euro fee. I'm saying its not a fair amount for people who are only importing low value items. Since 15 euro is the minimum or 2.5% whichever is higher (I think you missed that detail when bringing up the customs broker), perhaps they could lower the minimum and increase the percentage if they are really struggling to cover costs, since for most people who use dhl for average value items, 50-100 euro, that 15 euro will work out to be a 15-25% fee. I have no issue at all with anposts fee since they aren't getting paid directly for the actual shipment yet will be doing the delivery.

spix

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

Be very clear. Unless the freight cost is shown as a seperate line on the commercial invoice, the customs broker has no choice but to add freight costs. Therefore DHL - in the absence of hard evidence - has to add the standard tariff freight cost. End of argument. If you disagree you have to take your case to Revenue and submit proof that the value declared is wrong.
To suggest that DHL (or other couriers) are taking liberties by charging for a service provided is seriously flawed and demonstrates a lack of understanding of Customs rules and regulation plus the work involved to process customs entries, bank guarantees required etc.
I am not a fan of DHL. They are a major competitor in my industry. However, there is a real cost involved in providing a customs clearance service. And where I come from only the sun goes up for nothing.

They don't 'have to' add the standard cost, and they don't. They do a 30% discount on it. Which still results almost certainly in a grossly overestimated price as can be seen by how many complaints about this have been posted before. They then re-adjust the price if the customer bothers to prove how much was actually paid, however it would be much simpler in the first place if they just had a more realistic estimation. DHL would rather overcharge 100 people than undercharge 1.

whiterebel

spix wrote: »

Well to find out if its fair or not, we'd need to know how much DHL is making off that 15 euro fee. I'm saying its not a fair amount for people who are only importing low value items. Since 15 euro is the minimum or 2.5% whichever is higher (I think you missed that detail when bringing up the customs broker), perhaps they could lower the minimum and increase the percentage if they are really struggling to cover costs, since for most people who use dhl for average value items, 50-100 euro, that 15 euro will work out to be a 15-25% fee. I have no issue at all with anposts fee since they aren't getting paid directly for the actual shipment yet will be doing the delivery.

No matter how low the charge people will complain because they expect the item to cost what they pay on the website they buy it. They don’t want to pay any extra charges, but that’s the problem of buying from outside the EU. If they remove the minimum amount for VAT collection, you’ll see cheap imports from outside the EU almost disappear.

The broker charge referred to above is usually for a one line entry. They could be dealing with imports worth millions, so a percentage isn’t feasible, plus the importer will have their own TAN account, so no Vat/Duty outlay for the broker.

spix

whiterebel wrote: »

No matter how low the charge people will complain because they expect the item to cost what they pay on the website they buy it. They don’t want to pay any extra charges, but that’s the problem of buying from outside the EU. If they remove the minimum amount for VAT collection, you’ll see cheap imports from outside the EU almost disappear.

The broker charge referred to above is usually for a one line entry. They could be dealing with imports worth millions, so a percentage isn’t feasible, plus the importer will have their own TAN account, so no Vat/Duty outlay for the broker.

Don't agree about the cost not mattering and its nothing to do with the vat minimum. The issue is that the minimum 15 euro advance payment fee (especially on top of an overestimated shipping fee) can suddenly make the customer feel like they just got ripped off especially since they're also paying 23% tax on the shipping fee DHL made up. Suddenly a 50 euro purchase costs double that. You can't help but feel ripped off. Alot of chinese sellers offer dhl for a relatively low price so its often used on pretty cheap purchases. Now if the 15 euro fee was a bit lower and the shipping estimate by DHL was relatively accurate, this wouldn't be such an issue.



I've experienced this myself and now try to avoid using DHL if at all possible. Even if you request the seller to declare the shipping, it isn't always done because the declaration is actually done by a 3rd party shipping agent that the seller uses. DHL must know the typical price for a shipment of a certain size coming from China, even I know it. Shipping there is extremely competitive, if they really charged the full price -30% they would not get any business there.

whiterebel

spix wrote: »

Don't agree about the cost not mattering and its nothing to do with the vat minimum. The issue is that the minimum 15 euro advance payment fee (especially on top of an overestimated shipping fee) can suddenly make the customer feel like they just got ripped off especially since they're also paying 23% tax on the shipping fee DHL made up. Suddenly a 50 euro purchase costs double that. You can't help but feel ripped off. Alot of chinese sellers offer dhl for a relatively low price so its often used on pretty cheap purchases. Now if the 15 euro fee was a bit lower and the shipping estimate by DHL was relatively accurate, this wouldn't be such an issue.



I've experienced this myself and now try to avoid using DHL if at all possible. Even if you request the seller to declare the shipping, it isn't always done because the declaration is actually done by a 3rd party shipping agent that the seller uses. DHL must know the typical price for a shipment of a certain size coming from China, even I know it. Shipping there is extremely competitive, if they really charged the full price -30% they would not get any business there.

All the couriers do the same thing, as they are instructed to do by Revenue. Yet again more guessing about what a company would know about what its operations in China have access to.
There is a rate for Clearance, and a procedure for non declaration of freight costs. If the shipper doesn't do it correctly, the problem lies with them. Not a couriers fault that the seller can't be bothered doing it correctly.

spix

whiterebel wrote: »

All the couriers do the same thing, as they are instructed to do by Revenue. Yet again more guessing about what a company would know about what its operations in China have access to.
There is a rate for Clearance, and a procedure for non declaration of freight costs. If the shipper doesn't do it correctly, the problem lies with them. Not a couriers fault that the seller can't be bothered doing it correctly.

How can a company not know about its own operations? If they don't know then they should find out fairly easily, unless of course it wouldn't be in their best interest.



It's just ignorance, for whatever reason, intentional or unintentional, doesn't matter. They are overcharging people with the shipping estimates and that's just a fact. I also wonder how frequently their estimate has pushed the parcels value over the 150 duty limit as well and then the buyer wrongly gets charged duty on top of paying extra vat. I'm telling you right now, there is practically no difference in DHL prices between shipping agents in hangzhou, guangzhou, aliexpress, whatever other chinese store that ships overseas you can think of. They're all on the same highly discounted DHL rate, which from my estimate is about 1/4 of what DHL will estimate the shipping cost to be. Theres a few exceptions where the DHL price is again even cheaper Imagine if DHL decided to 'refuse low cost shipping' and then say that shipping cost you $80 when the items total cost including the dhl shipping was only $100. There is no way to defend that, if they're not happy with discounted shipping then perhaps they should stop offering discounted shipping in China instead of screwing over the customers.

whiterebel

spix wrote: »

How can a company not know about its own operations? If they don't know then they should find out fairly easily, unless of course it wouldn't be in their best interest.



It's just ignorance, for whatever reason, intentional or unintentional, doesn't matter. They are overcharging people with the shipping estimates and that's just a fact. I also wonder how frequently their estimate has pushed the parcels value over the 150 duty limit as well and then the buyer wrongly gets charged duty on top of paying extra vat. I'm telling you right now, there is practically no difference in DHL prices between shipping agents in hangzhou, guangzhou, aliexpress, whatever other chinese store that ships overseas you can think of. They're all on the same highly discounted DHL rate, which from my estimate is about 1/4 of what DHL will estimate the shipping cost to be. Theres a few exceptions where the DHL price is again even cheaper Imagine if DHL decided to 'refuse low cost shipping' and then say that shipping cost you $80 when the items total cost including the dhl shipping was only $100. There is no way to defend that, if they're not happy with discounted shipping then perhaps they should stop offering discounted shipping in China instead of screwing over the customers.

Yet again, guessing, and putting forward what YOU think should happen, not actual facts. Going in circles, so I’m out.

spix

whiterebel wrote: »

Yet again, guessing, and putting forward what YOU think should happen, not actual facts. Going in circles, so I’m out.

Please tell me what I'm guessing. There's proof that this happens all over this forum.

You don't really believe that you would get a shipment by express from China for €6.50, do you?

There's DHL express shipping for under €6.50 btw

RUDOLF289

spix wrote: »

How can a company not know about its own operations? If they don't know then they should find out fairly easily, unless of course it wouldn't be in their best interest.



It's just ignorance, for whatever reason, intentional or unintentional, doesn't matter. They are overcharging people with the shipping estimates and that's just a fact. I also wonder how frequently their estimate has pushed the parcels value over the 150 duty limit as well and then the buyer wrongly gets charged duty on top of paying extra vat. I'm telling you right now, there is practically no difference in DHL prices between shipping agents in hangzhou, guangzhou, aliexpress, whatever other chinese store that ships overseas you can think of. They're all on the same highly discounted DHL rate, which from my estimate is about 1/4 of what DHL will estimate the shipping cost to be. Theres a few exceptions where the DHL price is again even cheaper Imagine if DHL decided to 'refuse low cost shipping' and then say that shipping cost you $80 when the items total cost including the dhl shipping was only $100. There is no way to defend that, if they're not happy with discounted shipping then perhaps they should stop offering discounted shipping in China instead of screwing over the customers.

The problem is not DHL. It is an instruction from Customs. As stated before, unless the freight charge is clearly stated on the documentation that accompany the shipment, the rule is that a freight charge is added. The rule as to how much is imposed by Revenue (in fact it is uniform throughout the EU)
You seem intend on blaming DHL. The issue is the paperwork provided to DHL by the shipper.
I suggest you stop making unfounded allegations. All you are doing is showing your lack of understanding on how the customs entry process works.

RUDOLF289

Just so you know what the instruction is from Revenue regarding the addition of freight cost, please see attached Customs Manual. I suggest you refer to Chapter 9 "Additional Charges" on page 29. I am quoting direct from the manual ;

"In cases where the actual freight charge is not known at the time of customs clearance, the equivalent of that charge will apply (as ascertained from the tariff of the carrier in question for the same journey or reverse journey and for the same type of consignment)."

Now, I know you will come back and argue again that DHL is ripping off customers by artificially inflating the cost of the transport so they can justify their handling fee of € 15.00 minimum or 2.5%, so following the moderator I am also out.

spix

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

Just so you know what the instruction is from Revenue regarding the addition of freight cost, please see attached Customs Manual. I suggest you refer to Chapter 9 "Additional Charges" on page 29. I am quoting direct from the manual ;

"In cases where the actual freight charge is not known at the time of customs clearance, the equivalent of that charge will apply (as ascertained from the tariff of the carrier in question for the same journey or reverse journey and for the same type of consignment)."

Now, I know you will come back and argue again that DHL is ripping off customers by artificially inflating the cost of the transport so they can justify their handling fee of € 15.00 minimum or 2.5%, so following the moderator I am also out.

"For the same journey or reverse journey" DHL uses the cost of the parcel from Ireland -> China -30% (where is that specified in the manual you linked to?) but if you look at the Full official price on the DHL HK/China website to Ireland, its much cheaper than what the Ireland -> China -30% cost would be. Wonder why they use that option seeing as the parcel did actually come from China :rolleyes: If it is really due to customs setting the exact procedure they need to follow, which if true was probably suggested by shipping companies since customs aren't a shipping company are they? Then DHL should seek to have that corrected. This issue has existed for a long time yet has not been corrected. It will result in less money collected from customers so I guess its not their priority.

Regarding the text quoted in bold, I never said that? They are 2 separate issues. The handling fee is minimum 15 euro regardless of their shipping estimate. Even if the shipping is declared properly on the parcel, the 15 euro fee is still too much for some kind of shipments. It's when you add that fee onto a grossly overestimated + taxed shipping fee that things become ridiculous.

RUDOLF289

Spix,

I knew you would be coming back, you disbelieving Thomas. Can you give me the link you refer to to the DHL HK/China website ?

Also, you can be sure that Customs knows EXACTLY what the officially published tariffs are of every courier company. You obviously have no idea what Customs know. You can be sure, if DHL does not declare the correct value to Customs (not what DHL thinks it should be, but what Customs dictates what it should be), DHL will be penalised. The first "penalty" imposed is that all DHL entries in Ireland go RED or Orange. Secondly the penalties will be very significant. Thirdly, they will get reported to Brussels and a full investigation will take place for ALL EU DHL/Deutsche Post Companies/

The 30% discount you refer to, is the discount that applies - in accordance with Customs Valuation rules - to calculate the CFR EU border costs. Please refer to https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2015.343.01.0558.01.ENG scroll down to (quite far) to ANNEX 23-01
Air transport costs to be included in the customs value. Look for the Column Headed Asia - Zone L, which shows that you add 70% of the total airfreight costs from China to the Customs value.

You still havent figured out that it is really up to the Chinese supplier to ensure that the commercial invoice that accompanies the goods have to be issued in the prescribed format. And hiding behind any and all excuses, like the dog at my homework, or the agent that issued the documents was not aware and any such non sense, is just that NON SENSE! I am involved in significant business to and from China. If I send out a shipment to China that does not meet the Chinese requirements, the problem is mine (and that of my client).

RUDOLF289

spix wrote: »

How can a company not know about its own operations? If they don't know then they should find out fairly easily, unless of course it wouldn't be in their best interest.



It's just ignorance, for whatever reason, intentional or unintentional, doesn't matter. They are overcharging people with the shipping estimates and that's just a fact. I also wonder how frequently their estimate has pushed the parcels value over the 150 duty limit as well and then the buyer wrongly gets charged duty on top of paying extra vat. I'm telling you right now, there is practically no difference in DHL prices between shipping agents in hangzhou, guangzhou, aliexpress, whatever other chinese store that ships overseas you can think of. They're all on the same highly discounted DHL rate, which from my estimate is about 1/4 of what DHL will estimate the shipping cost to be. Theres a few exceptions where the DHL price is again even cheaper Imagine if DHL decided to 'refuse low cost shipping' and then say that shipping cost you $80 when the items total cost including the dhl shipping was only $100. There is no way to defend that, if they're not happy with discounted shipping then perhaps they should stop offering discounted shipping in China instead of screwing over the customers.

Spix,

I apologise for paraphrasing in my post that you are accusing DHL of ripping off customers. I plead justification however on the basis of the highlighted parts of your above post and the general tennure of your postings in this thread.

CeilingFly

spix wrote: »

Well to find out if its fair or not, we'd need to know how much DHL is making off that 15 euro fee. I'm saying its not a fair amount for people who are only importing low value items.

Should every retail and service company display their "cost" price? There are so mnay variables. On most input charges, they'll take a profit, on some, they'll take a loss

spix wrote: »

There's DHL express shipping for under €6.50 btw

I think you are thinking that DHL have set that price. I ship parcels to Europe. My EU shipping charge is €9.95 inc vat per order - it costs me anything from €8.43 to €22 +vat depending on the country its going to. The customer won't know that. The customer just sees a 9.95 charge which entices them to buy and I'll make it from a higher than average order size.

RUDOLF289

spix wrote: »

They don't 'have to' add the standard cost, and they don't. They do a 30% discount on it. Which still results almost certainly in a grossly overestimated price as can be seen by how many complaints about this have been posted before. They then re-adjust the price if the customer bothers to prove how much was actually paid, however it would be much simpler in the first place if they just had a more realistic estimation. DHL would rather overcharge 100 people than undercharge 1.

I refer to my previous post. You seem to strongly suggest that DHL make it up as they go along. I have explained in my post that the 30% discount is in accordance with the EU rules for Customs Valuation.

spix

CeilingFly wrote: »

Should every retail and service company display their "cost" price? There are so mnay variables. On most input charges, they'll take a profit, on some, they'll take a loss


I think you are thinking that DHL have set that price. I ship parcels to Europe. My EU shipping charge is €9.95 inc vat per order - it costs me anything from €8.43 to €22 +vat depending on the country its going to. The customer won't know that. The customer just sees a 9.95 charge which entices them to buy and I'll make it from a higher than average order size.

If its partially included in the product price that doesn't make any difference (dont think thats the case here since the product price is equal to other sellers), in fact its one reason why a made up shipping cost is not the right way to do things as every seller has different ways to sell their products.

CeilingFly

At the end of the day, it was the shipper that failed you by not putting the basic information on the package.

If they ship regularly they will know this.

No use blaming others.

spix

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

Spix,

I knew you would be coming back, you disbelieving Thomas. Can you give me the link you refer to to the DHL HK/China website ?

Also, you can be sure that Customs knows EXACTLY what the officially published tariffs are of every courier company. You obviously have no idea what Customs know. You can be sure, if DHL does not declare the correct value to Customs (not what DHL thinks it should be, but what Customs dictates what it should be), DHL will be penalised. The first "penalty" imposed is that all DHL entries in Ireland go RED or Orange. Secondly the penalties will be very significant. Thirdly, they will get reported to Brussels and a full investigation will take place for ALL EU DHL/Deutsche Post Companies/

The 30% discount you refer to, is the discount that applies - in accordance with Customs Valuation rules - to calculate the CFR EU border costs. Please refer to https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2015.343.01.0558.01.ENG scroll down to (quite far) to ANNEX 23-01
Air transport costs to be included in the customs value. Look for the Column Headed Asia - Zone L, which shows that you add 70% of the total airfreight costs from China to the Customs value.

You still havent figured out that it is really up to the Chinese supplier to ensure that the commercial invoice that accompanies the goods have to be issued in the prescribed format. And hiding behind any and all excuses, like the dog at my homework, or the agent that issued the documents was not aware and any such non sense, is just that NON SENSE! I am involved in significant business to and from China. If I send out a shipment to China that does not meet the Chinese requirements, the problem is mine (and that of my client).

DHL don't add 70% of the costs from China if the parcel has no shipping value on it. They are adding 70% of the 'reverse journey' the cost if sending the same parcel from Ireland to China. According to something you posted earlier, it can be done either way. Why are DHL choosing the option which results in the customer paying tax on an amount they know full well is not what they paid for shipping.

Here's the HK pricing http://www.dhl.com.hk/content/dam/downloads/hk/express/shipping/rate_guides/dhl_express_rate_transit_guide_hk_en.pdf

Ireland is considered zone 1 for DHL express worldwide. 26 euro base price for a parcel to Ireland (most sellers will have discounts due to being large volume shippers)

The price from Ireland to HK for the same parcel size/weight is 89 euro. The bigger the parcel gets, the bigger the price discrepancy.


There is no way to agree with this. All DHL would need to do is get their official pricing from the country of origin and calculate off that, and customers would be charged something more in line with what they actually paid for shipping. Maybe not exactly correct but when you're talking being off by at least 3x, that's a big issue.

spix

CeilingFly wrote: »

At the end of the day, it was the shipper that failed you by not putting the basic information on the package.

If they ship regularly they will know this.

No use blaming others.

Shipping is not that simple in China, there are lots of third parties involved so the seller might request that but then their agent ignores it as they do things their own way. They also change agents very frequently depending on what rates are offered at the time.


To be fair to customers, all DHL have to do when calculating the cost if its missing, is use their official prices from the country of origin rather than using Irish rates. It makes no sense other than to increase the amount they will be collecting. It will still likely be more than was paid for shipping but its way more realistic.

RUDOLF289

spix wrote: »

DHL don't add 70% of the costs from China if the parcel has no shipping value on it. They are adding 70% of the 'reverse journey' the cost if sending the same parcel from Ireland to China.

Here's the HK pricing http://www.dhl.com.hk/content/dam/downloads/hk/express/shipping/rate_guides/dhl_express_rate_transit_guide_hk_en.pdf

26 euro base price for a parcel to Ireland (most sellers will have discounts due to being large volume shippers)

The price from Ireland to HK for the same parcel size/weight is 89 euro. The bigger the parcel gets, the bigger the price discrepancy.


There is no way to agree with this. All DHL would need to do is get their official pricing from the country of origin and calculate off that, and customers would be charged something more in line with what they actually paid for shipping. Maybe not exactly correct but when you're talking being off by at least 3x, that's a big issue.

Spix,

let's list what we have established sofar ;

1. Revenue is implementing the EU directive on valuation. I have sent you the link. In accordance with EU regulation, in the absence of shipping costs specified on the commercial invoice, the freight cost is calculated on the basis of the official tariff filed by the carrier.
2. The freight costs for airfreight (e.g. courier) shipments from China are calculated @ 70% of the published tariff
3. The tariff you have submitted is the Hong Kong tariff, issued in Hong Kong Dollars. It is NOT from China
4. I am intrigued how you arive at a base cost of 26 Euro. The zone for Ireland is zone 8. According to the DHL Hong Kong Tariff you submitted, the minimum charge for Non Documents is HK$ 584 for 0.5 kgs. HK$ 584 @ the rate of exchange of 1 HKD = 0.109116 EUR the Euro amount is € 63.72
[url]Https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=584&From=HKD&To=EUR[/url]

I am only 40 years in the Logistics Industry, but perhaps my abacus needs updating. I would be interested to know how you arrive at € 26.00 on the basis of the tariff you supplied ?

At the risk of repeating myself, if the supplier shows the freight cost on the commercial invoice, then all this becomes moot. Making excuses "Shipping is not that simple in China, there are lots of third parties involved so the seller might request that but then their agent ignores it as they do things their own way." simply ignores the fact that the supplier abdicates his/her responsibility or hides behind somebody not following their instructions. Neither DHL nor Customs can accept that argument. They can only rely on the documentation accompanying the shipment.

Looking forward to your next post.