Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 27-05-2018 03:39PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

That’s stats for the UK. A different country. Who knows why there are more surgical abortions there. Abortion under 12 weeks can be carried out using the pills. It’s much less invasive that way. Why would anyone decide on a surgical abortion over that? Seriously like? “Nah, that’s too easy, gimme a surgical abortion!”.

The pills are a less good option after ten weeks as far as I recall.

The abortion pills would also be contraindicated for some medical conditions, surgery would be needed sometimes in ectopic cases (I'm not sure if they're included in Pete's figures). Selective abortions, where there's more than one foetus and you're only getting rid of one, obviously have to be performed surgically.

Some women will also opt for a surgical abortion because they'd prefer it. It's quicker, they might not trust the pills to work, and I'm googling studies now and for women who've had a medical abortion previously, the bleeding and pain was too bad for them to want to do it again.

The ratio of medical abortions to surgical abortions has been climbing continuously for years in the UK, and they're doing all they can to make sure that continues.

Wrongway1985 · 27-05-2018 03:40PM

end of the road wrote: »

harassment is already a crime. i support anyone's right to protest regardless of whether i agree with them or not. in the past i would have believed in restricting the protesting by groups i disagree with but the years have thought me that such is not a good idea and can only end badly.

Fair enough protest away if they must but certainly not in the vicinity of the medical premises.

pitifulgod · 27-05-2018 03:40PM

end of the road wrote: »

they really aren't required and would be a waste of time money and resources that can be used elsewhere to actual effect. as i said the people who would protest outside these facilities feel that strongly about the issue that not even prison would stop them.
anything that restricts the right to protest is in my view dangerous to democracy and has the ability to be extended beyond abortion facilities and to effect us all.
if you want the protests gone, then in my view shutting the facilities and changing to a gp and hospital lead service is the best option.

In the UK, zones were setup because it amounted to intimidation of women using Marie Stopes. Also, the ICBR doing similar outside of our maternity hospitals was designed to upset, in a same buildng where women would be dealing with miscarriages as well as a pregnancies. It's disgraceful and intimidating.

Fighting Tao · 27-05-2018 03:40PM

end of the road wrote: »

they really aren't required and would be a waste of time money and resources that can be used elsewhere to actual effect. as i said the people who would protest outside these facilities feel that strongly about the issue that not even prison would stop them.
anything that restricts the right to protest is in my view dangerous to democracy and has the ability to be extended beyond abortion facilities and to effect us all.
if you want the protests gone, then in my view shutting the facilities and changing to a gp and hospital lead service is the best option.

Jeez. We may as well sack all Gardaí with that thinking. They are a waste of time, money and resources. Why would they ever be needed to protect people?

end of the road · 27-05-2018 03:49PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

In the UK, zones were setup because it amounted to intimidation of women using Marie Stopes.

i'm aware of that, however my personal view is that they will make no difference and may even be quietly dropped long term. being frank i'd also wonder if the reason for their introduction was more about loss of business rather then intimidation which is surely already covered by uk law? would these clinics pay council tax or business rates or how does that work?

pitifulgod wrote: »

Also, the ICBR doing similar outside of our maternity hospitals was designed to upset, in a same buildng where women would be dealing with miscarriages as well as a pregnancies. It's disgraceful and intimidating.

agreed but in my view it's the price we pay for democracy. people will protest who we will not agree with and sometimes protests will get nasty. however any of the nasty business is already covered by existing laws but in ireland government refuse to fund and resource our police force and a lot of the electorate don't seem to want to make it an election issue.

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Jeez. We may as well sack all Gardaí with that thinking. They are a waste of time, money and resources. Why would they ever be needed to protect people?

of course not. the gardai are needed. however i believe the existing laws can already cover the problems in society rather well.

Pherekydes · 27-05-2018 03:53PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Seen a lot of posts like the above, both before and after the vote, and it's just simply untrue.

Well then you got him to vote Yes by giving him false information.

Abortions at 12 weeks and under in this country will NOT all be pill based. That is not the way it has been in the UK, France or Holland and there is zero reason to think that the abortions methods used here will be any different to elsewhere.

In 2016 (in the UK) 28% of abortions between 3 - 9 weeks were surgical and 84% of them between weeks 10 - 12:

Not that I feel it matters a whole lot how a baby in the womb reaches their demise (the end result is the same after all). However, the reason I feel it very much matters that it was incorrectly stated over and over again throughout the campaign is because voters (as evidenced by the user quoted) based their decision on it.

Telling people that 'Ah sure, it's just two pills and a heavy period' as many prochoice campaigners did, including Clare Daly, helped support the false narrative that a developing baby at between 10 - 12 weeks is just a 'clump of cells'. Bit harder to convince someone of that nonsense when you give them the truth and not just the truth with regards to likely abortive methods which will be used here but the full truth on what a late first trimester abortion can often entail.

Not all abortions pre 12 weeks are by pill, but it's fair to say that the majority are.

Fighting Tao · 27-05-2018 03:54PM

end of the road wrote: »

i'm aware of that, however my personal view is that they will make no difference and may even be quietly dropped long term. being frank i'd also wonder if the reason for their introduction was more about loss of business rather then intimidation which is surely already covered by uk law? would these clinics pay council tax or business rates or how does that work?

That is tin foil hat stuff.

Loafing Oaf · 27-05-2018 03:54PM

end of the road wrote: »

shutting the facilities and changing to a gp and hospital lead service is the best option.

Or how about not opening abortion clinics in the first place and going with a GP-led service? I wonder is there any chance the government would go down that road...

Sheep breeder · 27-05-2018 03:55PM

Overheal wrote: »

Hogwash. As we all know from reading the last few pages of this thread your grandmother was a brainwashed university liberal who just wanted to fit in with the progressive agenda because she can’t think for herself

:rolleyes:

I think you need to get a good pair of glasses and read the post.

end of the road · 27-05-2018 03:58PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Or how about not opening abortion clinics in the first place and going with a GP-led service? I wonder is there any chance the government would go down that road...

to be fair i was talking about other countries in that post and how they should shut the clinics and transfer to a gp and hospital lead service. i completely agree abortion clinics are the last thing we need here in ireland.

Christy42 · 27-05-2018 03:58PM

People should be free to protest but not next to a clinic. That is needlessly trying to hurt women. It would be like an anti war protest at a soldier's funeral. It just makes you a sicko.

They can protest down any main street they like as far as I am concerned and get it covered on the evening news. Just not at a clinic.

Shurimgreat · 27-05-2018 04:01PM

Certainly not as simple as two pills and a heavy period.

www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/the-abortion-pill/what-can-i-expect-if-i-take-abortion-pill

https://www.bpas.org/abortion-care/abortion-treatments/the-abortion-pill/abortion-pill-up-to-10-weeks/

Shurimgreat · 27-05-2018 04:09PM

A question here.
If a young girl or woman is raped and they don't find out they are pregnant until after the 12 week limit what happens then? It would be rare but possible. The girl or woman might be undecided what to do. We know some women don't report rape even though everyone should be encoraged to report it asap.
Will there be provision after the 12 week limit for rape victims?
And if so doesn't this sort of invalidate the 12 week limit?

Timberrrrrrrr · 27-05-2018 04:11PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Certainly not as simple as two pills and a heavy period.

www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/the-abortion-pill/what-can-i-expect-if-i-take-abortion-pill

https://www.bpas.org/abortion-care/abortion-treatments/the-abortion-pill/abortion-pill-up-to-10-weeks/

And certainly not the walk in the park many of the NO side would have had us believe when they said women would be having multiple terminations for lifestyle choices.

27-05-2018 04:12PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Certainly not as simple as two pills and a heavy period.

www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/the-abortion-pill/what-can-i-expect-if-i-take-abortion-pill

https://www.bpas.org/abortion-care/abortion-treatments/the-abortion-pill/abortion-pill-up-to-10-weeks/

From the first link you posted

For most people, the cramping and bleeding usually starts 1-4 hours after taking the misoprostol. It’s normal to see large blood clots (up to the size of a lemon) or clumps of tissue when the abortion is happening. It’s kind of like having a really heavy, crampy period,and the process is very similar to an early miscarriage

Fighting Tao · 27-05-2018 04:13PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

A question here.
If a young girl or woman is raped and they don't find out they are pregnant until after the 12 week limit what happens then? It would be rare but possible. The girl or woman might also be undecided what to do. We know some women don't report rape even though everyone should be encoraged to report it asap.
Will there be provision after the 12 week limit for rape victims?
And if so doesn't this sort of invalidate the 12 week limit?

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057875800/2/#post107103912

Timberrrrrrrr · 27-05-2018 04:13PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

A question here.
If a young girl or woman is raped and they don't find out they are pregnant until after the 12 week limit what happens then? It would be rare but possible. The girl or woman might also be undecided what to do. We know some women don't report rape even though everyone should be encoraged to report it asap.
Will there be provision after the 12 week limit for rape victims?
And if so doesn't this sort of invalidate the 12 week limit?

I certainly hope there will be.

retro:electro · 27-05-2018 04:13PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

A question here.
If a young girl or woman is raped and they don't find out they are pregnant until after the 12 week limit what happens then? It would be rare but possible. The girl or woman might also be undecided what to do. We know some women don't report rape even though everyone should be encoraged to report it asap.
Will there be provision after the 12 week limit for rape victims?
And if so doesn't this sort of invalidate the 12 week limit?

If she wants to keep it she can keep it. If her mental health is affected she may be offered a termination on those grounds.

Mountainsandh · 27-05-2018 04:14PM

Elisabeth Wrong Stork wrote: »

The pills are a less good option after ten weeks as far as I recall.

The abortion pills would also be contraindicated for some medical conditions, surgery would be needed sometimes in ectopic cases (I'm not sure if they're included in Pete's figures). Selective abortions, where there's more than one foetus and you're only getting rid of one, obviously have to be performed surgically.

Some women will also opt for a surgical abortion because they'd prefer it. It's quicker, they might not trust the pills to work, and I'm googling studies now and for women who've had a medical abortion previously, the bleeding and pain was too bad for them to want to do it again.

The ratio of medical abortions to surgical abortions has been climbing continuously for years in the UK, and they're doing all they can to make sure that continues.

There are also geographical reasons : for a chemical abortion you are more likely to have follow up visits than for a surgical abortion. If that means travelling to another town, some women will opt for the once off surgical way.

27-05-2018 04:16PM

Sheep breeder wrote: »

I think you need to get a good pair of glasses and read the post.

The poster was being ironic based on the previous posts by some people last night/this morning that everyone believed the yes side propaganda especially millennials.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 27-05-2018 04:16PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

From the first link you posted

For most people, the cramping and bleeding usually starts 1-4 hours after taking the misoprostol. It’s normal to see large blood clots (up to the size of a lemon) or clumps of tissue when the abortion is happening. It’s kind of like having a really heavy, crampy period,and the process is very similar to an early miscarriage

People who think describing something as "like a very heavy period" is belittling or trivialising should just wear a big sign saying "I know nothing about women's bodies". The phrase "like a very heavy period" is enough to put the absolute fear of god into me!

Shurimgreat · 27-05-2018 04:19PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I certainly hope there will be.

Grand.
So how do they prove they were raped?

27-05-2018 04:22PM

Elisabeth Wrong Stork wrote: »

People who think describing something as "like a very heavy period" is belittling or trivialising should just wear a big sign saying "I know nothing about women's bodies". The phrase "like a very heavy period" is enough to put the absolute fear of god into me!

It's sort of like the route my wife took with a male no canvasser during the campaign, she described what is was like to have a really heavy period and asked him what she should/could do to relieve them in his opinion as he had such an interest in her reproductive life. He muttered something about being dirty and slunked away.

Shurimgreat · 27-05-2018 04:23PM

retro:electro wrote: »

If she wants to keep it she can keep it. If her mental health is affected she may be offered a termination on those grounds.

Sounds very like the current UK model to me ie the mental health grounds. I''m not demeaning mental health but we know its been misused to a degree in the UK case.

We've been told a woman shouldn't have to prove rape up to 12 weeks. But after 12 weeks do they need to prove it? Its a legitimate question that I haven't heard anyone address in the campaign.

Fighting Tao · 27-05-2018 04:24PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Grand.
So how do they prove they were raped?

Shouldn't you have had this conversation before the referendum?

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 27-05-2018 04:25PM

Elisabeth Wrong Stork wrote:

People who think describing something as "like a very heavy period" is belittling or trivialising should just wear a big sign saying "I know nothing about women's bodies". The phrase "like a very heavy period" is enough to put the absolute fear of god into me!

This. I pass clots 'up to the size of lemons' (and bigger) with my regular period and it's horrible, I've passed out with it before.

It is not insignificant and I'm so glad people will finally be able to get the proper and full care needed as they go through it.

Fighting Tao · 27-05-2018 04:25PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Sounds very like the current UK model to me ie the mental health grounds. I''m not demeaning mental health but we know its been misused to a degree in the UK case.

Go on then. Source?

27-05-2018 04:26PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Shouldn't you have had this conversation before the referendum?

We did a no poster said they could just make a phone call and say they were raped and it would be fine for them to have an abortion. It's just a rehash at this stage.

Mountainsandh · 27-05-2018 04:26PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Certainly not as simple as two pills and a heavy period.

www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/the-abortion-pill/what-can-i-expect-if-i-take-abortion-pill

https://www.bpas.org/abortion-care/abortion-treatments/the-abortion-pill/abortion-pill-up-to-10-weeks/

It is as simple as two pills and a heavy period.

Still not an experience any woman will seek lightly, like other women mentioned, no-one wants that ordeal, and the follow up appointments are another negative.

It is simple, it doesn't mean nice or easy.

Shurimgreat · 27-05-2018 04:27PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Shouldn't you have had this conversation before the referendum?

It only occured to me this morning.

I can see a problem with the legislation dealing with such cases.

Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

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