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The Dilemma of the Undecideds in the abortion referendum

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    #632
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    You misunderstand the analogy.

    No; I was just having some fun with it, rather than indulge the ageism. I'd hate to miss an opportunity to point out that the broad consensus of the medical profession is that abortion is an important option in reproductive healthcare.


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    #633
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    No; I was just having some fun with it, rather than indulge the ageism. I'd hate to miss an opportunity to point out that the broad consensus of the medical profession is that abortion is an important option in reproductive healthcare.

    so killing a foetus is healthcare ?
    Not sure i can agree with that.


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    #634
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    MideBear wrote: »
    I think I might have to. I don't feel comfortable inflicting my values on YOU if you have differing ones.

    A soft yes shares the same values more than a soft no


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    #635
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    so killing a foetus is healthcare ?
    Not sure i can agree with that.

    It is when said foetus is doomed for a miscarriage which could potentially lead to sepsis among other serious issues.


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    #636
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    No; I was just having some fun with it, rather than indulge the ageism. I'd hate to miss an opportunity to point out that the broad consensus of the medical profession is that abortion is an important option in reproductive healthcare.

    They are entitled to view this as a healthcare issue. Indeed, they are more likely to.

    Doesnt in itself give the idea a shred of validity though.


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    #637
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    so killing a foetus is healthcare ?
    Not sure i can agree with that.

    Well, here's the thing: when some randomer on the Internet believes one thing, and the majority of medical professionals believe the opposite, I know which of those will influence my thinking more.


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    #638
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    so killing a foetus is healthcare ?
    Not sure i can agree with that.

    So when a woman is in agony miscarrying but due to feotal heartbeat has to endure the agony for a further week, in which time due to the nature of the miscarriage contracts septicaemia, which cannot be treated due to the dying (but no fully dead yet) foetus she then goes into septic shock and the woman dies....this has nothing to do with her healthcare?


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    #639
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Well, here's the thing: when some randomer on the Internet believes one thing, and the majority of medical professionals believe the opposite, I know which of those will influence my thinking more.


    Says some randomer on the internet!


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    #640
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Says some randomer on the internet!

    Touché, but it's not exactly a rebuttal.


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    #641
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    You misunderstand the analogy. Medical student view less valid than an experienced doctor view in a medical setting.

    This is a life experience / moral / worldview / political / legal / medical / spiritual / etc/ etc. setting.

    With all due, what has an 18 year old male got to base his views on.

    But its a democratic setting thst counts today All X's are equal


    So as a male.


    Were this vote had when I was 18 I would have had the experience of seeing my parents not told that my sister had a FFA, and could not survive outside the womb.

    I would have known that I saw it hidden to prevent them trying to travel

    I would have seen them have to bring her into a world to fight for every breath until her little body gave up.

    I would have seen the effects that had on my parents.

    I would have had the experience of being told that I would never see my little sister and the effect that had on 4 year old me (and the anxiety I have around my own kids 33 years later)

    I would have known that the kindest thing to do would have helped my parents by not forcing them through that (and risking my mom)
    I would have known that the kindest thing would have been to not force my sister through that hell for her tiny life.

    So, with all due respect, I say f@@k those who think that men can not have a valid opinion on this issue and I damn well know which way I'm voting


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    #642
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Noo wrote: »
    So when a woman is in agony miscarrying but due to feotal heartbeat has to endure the agony for a further week, in which time due to the nature of the miscarriage contracts septicaemia, which cannot be treated due to the dying (but no fully dead yet) foetus she then goes into septic shock and the woman dies....this has nothing to do with her healthcare?

    The tragedy is she didnt have a doctor for whom a fetal heatbeat wasnt an impediment.

    A dr. Trevor Hayes, for example.

    But go shead and blame the 8th with your x


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    #643
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So as a male.


    Were this vote had when I was 18 I would have had the experience of seeing my parents not told that my sister had a FFA, and could not survive outside the womb.

    I would have known that I saw it hidden to prevent them trying to travel

    I would have seen them have to bring her into a world to fight for every breath until her little body gave up.

    I would have seen the effects that had on my parents.

    I would have had the experience of being told that I would never see my little sister and the effect that had on 4 year old me (and the anxiety I have around my own kids 33 years later)

    I would have known that the kindest thing to do would have helped my parents by not forcing them through that (and risking my mom)
    I would have known that the kindest thing would have been to not force my sister through that hell for her tiny life.

    So, with all due respect, I say f@@k those who think that men can not have a valid opinion on this issue and I damn well know which way I'm voting

    I was dealing with the average state of affairs. Apols for the offence


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    #644
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    Noo wrote: »
    So when a woman is in agony miscarrying but due to feotal heartbeat has to endure the agony for a further week, in which time due to the nature of the miscarriage contracts septicaemia, which cannot be treated due to the dying (but no fully dead yet) foetus she then goes into septic shock and the woman dies....this has nothing to do with her healthcare?

    Hardcase, and the legislation should have allowed for this, not the ultra liberal nonsense that has been given to us.
    Most abortions are healthy babies from healthy mothers, but if you can vote yes to that fair dues it's democracy.
    But i can't


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    #645
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Touché, but it's not exactly a rebuttal.

    The rebuttal was there. You just didnt attend it. Supposing this a healthcare issue (at root) isnt validated by either you or doctors claiming it to be.

    Health is of course involved. But that doesnt make health the root.

    Given we're pronouncing on life, you can't avoid it being an existential issue as well. "What is human life"

    Its right in there in the mix

    Not typically forefront in the 18 yr. old male mind


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    #646
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    Hardcase, and the legislation should have allowed for this, not the ultra liberal nonsense that has been given to us.
    Most abortions are healthy babies from healthy mothers, but if you can vote yes to that fair dues it's democracy.
    But i can't

    The 8th prevents any of that legislation.


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    #647
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    The tragedy is she didnt have a doctor for whom a fetal heatbeat wasnt an impediment.

    Because of the uncertainty of the 8th.
    There is also a story on In Her Shoes that was the same (except with micarrying twins). One died first and they couldnt remove the placenta for risk to the second twin (who still had a heartbeat but who was going also die too). The placenta was left to rot inside her for a week and she and the doctors knew the outcome. She actually doesnt criticise the medical staff because they knew exactly what was going to happen but their hands were tied. It was only when she was about to die from septicaemia did the medical staff intervene. Luckily she lived to tell the tale and continue to raise the 8 year she had to leave at home for 5 weeks while she recovered.

    If she'd had an abortion when the twins were being miscarried, that traumatic experience would not have happened.

    On what planet is that nothing to do with healthcare?


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    #648
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    Hardcase, and the legislation should have allowed for this, not the ultra liberal nonsense that has been given to us.
    Most abortions are healthy babies from healthy mothers, but if you can vote yes to that fair dues it's democracy.
    But i can't

    Unfortunately I cant vote yes either. As an irish woman of child bearing age living on the other side of the world I am not afforded the right to vote in a referendum that affects the women closest to me.


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    #649
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Noo wrote: »
    Because of the uncertainty of the 8th.
    There is also a story on In Her Shoes that was the same (except with micarrying twins). One died first and they couldnt remove the placenta for risk to the second twin (who still had a heartbeat but who was going also die too). The placenta was left to rot inside her for a week and she and the doctors knew the outcome. She actually doesnt criticise the medical staff because they knew exactly what was going to happen but their hands were tied. It was only when she was about to die from septicaemia did the medical staff intervene. Luckily she lived to tell the tale and continue to raise the 8 year she had to leave at home for 5 weeks while she recovered.

    If she'd had an abortion when the twins were being miscarried, that traumatic experience would not have happened.

    On what planet is that nothing to do with healthcare?

    No one said nothing to with. But not by any means solely

    If one doctor can be clear fetal heartbeat not an impefiment then so can all

    Guideline from medical council: fetal heartbeat not an impediment.

    Dr. Hayes hasnt been struck off


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    #650
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    The rebuttal was there. You just didnt attend it. Supposing this a healthcare issue (at root) isnt validated by either you or doctors claiming it to be.

    That's not a rebuttal. That's just you disagreeing with doctors about what is and isn't a healthcare issue.

    Doctors, eh? What would they know about healthcare?


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    #651
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    No one said nothing to with. But not by any means solely

    If one doctor can be clear fetal heartbeat not an impefiment then so can all

    Guideline from medical council: fetal heartbeat not an impediment.

    Dr. Hayes hasnt been struck off
    AnneFrank wrote: »
    so killing a foetus is healthcare ?
    Not sure i can agree with that.

    Well they didnt say "nothing to do with" but made their opinion quite clear.


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    #652
    bleary
    Registered Users Posts: 495 ✭✭bleary


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    No one said nothing to with. But not by any means solely

    If one doctor can be clear fetal heartbeat not an impefiment then so can all

    Guideline from medical council: fetal heartbeat not an impediment.

    Dr. Hayes hasnt been struck off
    The problem from my reading was no guidelines existed because internationally they would terminate the pregnancy. In no other country would a woman be left with a ruptured membrane for a week while doctor's discussed the constitution and if she was close enough to dying to do something


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    #653
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    The tragedy is she didnt have a doctor for whom a fetal heatbeat wasnt an impediment.

    A dr. Trevor Hayes, for example.

    But go shead and blame the 8th with your x

    Trevor Hayes seems more interested in how the 8th protects him, and the chats he can have with his lawyers about his patients than his actual patients.


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    #654
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #655
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I wouldn't even bother. S/he knows this, and isn't bothered. You're talking to the wall.


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    #656
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #657
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    I was dealing with the average state of affairs. Apols for the offence


    You were dealing with your average view of the world, which is how you have approached this thread from the start (and it is a distinctly average view).

    You like to classify problems and put them into rigid constructs. That is why you favour constitutional provisions on the unborn. Unfortunately, that simply isn't the way the world works.

    No constitutional provision, other than the one proposed by the government, can deal with the hard cases. It is only legislation, passed after the referendum, that can deal with the hard cases.


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    #658
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Still waiting on my age, but to reply to the above post,
    were you born a fully grown "Sentient, conscious, aware women" ?


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    #659
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Sentient, conscious, aware women who are your daughters, your sisters, your nieces, your cousins, your partners, your friends, their friends and all the women you know and love. That poster isn't thinking about that.


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    #660
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Exactly like i did before, how will you if no wins ?


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    #661
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    Still waiting on my age, but to reply to the above post,
    were you born a fully grown "Sentient, conscious, aware women" ?

    Depends on whether you routinely tell the truth in posts. If you do, then you are around 40.


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