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The Dilemma of the Undecideds in the abortion referendum

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    #602
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    antiskeptic wrote:
    I'm not sure what special contribution an cardiologist has to make.


    Well the testimony of a Nurse..Noel Pattern ... sorry I mean Porter was good enough for John McGuirk and the No campaign.


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    #603
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    Haven't voted yet, I was an undecided until very recently and to an extent I still am. But I will vote.

    I am in favour of repeal but opposed to the "any reason" 12 week limit.

    I have no problem with allowing for abortion at any stage in the case of FFA or where there is a risk to the mother.

    I've had issues with both the yes and the no sides. I found out yesterday that no campaigners were outside my kids school telling the kids that if their parents voted yes then it means no more babies. Twice, the yes side told me that as a man my views were not important.

    The last occured when I asked a yes campaigner what was a crisis pregnancy, they said it was any pregnancy that the mother did not want to go through with. So I asked if the father didn't have a say, and they simply said he hadn't as it's her body.

    I just want this crap to be over tbh.


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    #604
    ArthurDayne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Think your conflating democracy (in which everyones vote is equal) with wisdom. Per definition, an older person will, on average, be wiser than a younger one.

    Yeah because Brexit really demonstrated that . . .


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    #605
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Owryan wrote: »
    Haven't voted yet, I was an undecided until very recently and to an extent I still am. But I will vote.

    I am in favour of repeal but opposed to the "any reason" 12 week limit.

    I have no problem with allowing for abortion at any stage in the case of FFA or where there is a risk to the mother.

    I've had issues with both the yes and the no sides. I found out yesterday that no campaigners were outside my kids school telling the kids that if their parents voted yes then it means no more babies. Twice, the yes side told me that as a man my views were not important.

    The last occured when I asked a yes campaigner what was a crisis pregnancy, they said it was any pregnancy that the mother did not want to go through with. So I asked if the father didn't have a say, and they simply said he hadn't as it's her body.

    I just want this crap to be over tbh.

    And she was entirely wrong with her sentiment. Of course the father has a say, and in a properly functioning communicating relationship he would have his say. That majority of cases this would be true.

    On the opposite side of course there is some relationships which are not like that at all, highly dysfunctional. And you could argue that if the women in it doesnt want her body practically held hostage for near on a year then so be it. I come at if from a male perspective so neither you nor i can imagine having to hand over your body for 9 months without your total say. These things happen.


    I guess if you are a guy dont be having unprotected sex with the opposite sex unless you feel you both are willing to take on the burden of children.

    That is entirely in the mans control tbf.


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    #606
    Billgirlylegs
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Billgirlylegs


    cournioni wrote: »
    Just assessing all of the options available. Not all of us have the time to look into these things intensely from day one.

    Not much to it.
    Life is sacred from moment of conception - Vote No
    Life isn't sacred from moment of conception - Vote Yes

    Both are equally valid viewpoints.

    No grey area, no need to squabble with conscience.

    Pick one and vote.
    Then you carry on with whatever else takes up your time.


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    #607
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Billgirlylegs wrote: »
    Not much to it.
    Life is sacred from moment of conception - Vote No
    Life isn't sacred from moment of conception - Vote Yes

    Both are equally valid viewpoints.

    No grey area, no need to squabble with conscience.

    Pick one and vote.
    Then you carry on with whatever else takes up your time.

    lol,

    Thats quality word play...


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    #608
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Think your conflating democracy (in which everyones vote is equal) with wisdom. Per definition, an older person will, on average, be wiser than a younger one.

    Except that's not what s/he meant at all. It was meant in an insulting, dismissive way.
    I may be younger but I'm certainly not naive. And my opinion is no less valid that hers or yours.


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    #609
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,126 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    cournioni wrote: »
    Oh dear. You should read my previous posts then. I have stated that I am unhappy with the options in front of me.

    Yet voted in the only way that precludes changes to the options?:confused:


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    #610
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Except that's not what s/he meant at all. It was meant in an insulting, dismissive way.
    I may be younger but I'm certainly not naive. And my opinion is no less valid that hers or yours.

    It's funny how you know things about me and read things that simply aren't there, even though, thankfully we have never met. Also like ...... knows they are older than me, i find this stalking pretty weird to be honest


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    #611
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #612
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Owryan wrote: »
    Haven't voted yet, I was an undecided until very recently and to an extent I still am. But I will vote.

    I am in favour of repeal but opposed to the "any reason" 12 week limit.

    I have no problem with allowing for abortion at any stage in the case of FFA or where there is a risk to the mother.

    I've had issues with both the yes and the no sides. I found out yesterday that no campaigners were outside my kids school telling the kids that if their parents voted yes then it means no more babies. Twice, the yes side told me that as a man my views were not important.

    The last occured when I asked a yes campaigner what was a crisis pregnancy, they said it was any pregnancy that the mother did not want to go through with. So I asked if the father didn't have a say, and they simply said he hadn't as it's her body.

    I just want this crap to be over tbh.

    Do you want a say or a veto?

    Any decent woman would listen to her partner's views, but ultimately the decision would be hers and his consent would not be needed.


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    #613
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Ok so seen as you are stalking me, what age did i say ?
    Do you also believe everything you read ?


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    #614
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    It's funny how you know things about me and read things that simply aren't there, even though, thankfully we have never met. Also like ...... knows they are older than me, i find this stalking pretty weird to be honest

    You have a very bad habit of accidentally posting in provocative manner, and then playing he bleeding heart when people get the wrong end of the stick.

    Its really good to hear you meant no offense or ill will with that post though, even though that's how it came across, so consider your apology accepted.

    I wouldn't ever be worried about meeting you in real life, I don't run in such intolerant circles. So all good there.


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    #615
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Do you want a say or a veto?

    Any decent woman would listen to her partner's views, but ultimately the decision would be hers and his consent would not be needed.

    I want to see a repeal of the 8th, but I do not want unlimited abortion for the the first 12 weeks as planned. More than happy for abortion in specific circumstances.

    So, it's probably vote yes but lobby my TDs, 2 of them are against abortion as it is.


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    #616
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #617
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Meanwhile: Strong turnout reported in first hours of voting

    If Dublin votes at General Election levels, it'll be a big Yes win.

    I wouldn't be so sure. Apparently a lot of farmers are voting - and they're not going to be helping the yes side.

    All will be revealed tonight on the Late Late Show for anyone who is interested.


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    #618
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Owryan wrote: »
    I want to see a repeal of the 8th, but I do not want unlimited abortion for the the first 12 weeks as planned. More than happy for abortion in specific circumstances.

    So, it's probably vote yes but lobby my TDs, 2 of them are against abortion as it is.

    That's an eminently sensible approach.


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    #619
    MideBear
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭MideBear


    I was undecided for a long time and had thought long and hard about quite a few angles to it all and read and listened to a great many perspectives. I have come to a place where I think I will vote yes even though I personally think abortion is an abhorrent practice.

    Currently abortion is banned out right. Girls and women must travel and very little support is given to them.

    I think that as a society we should be able to craft laws that govern the practice - and this is actually what we are being asked.

    If abortion were made legal here, those people who are dead set against it do not have to avail of it and those due to circumstance who may need the procedure do not have to travel and could receive the care and support at home here


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    #620
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,160 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Odds on yes now in to 1/10. Evidently punters don't see any indications of a last-minute turnaround...


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    #621
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Except that's not what s/he meant at all. It was meant in an insulting, dismissive way.
    I may be younger but I'm certainly not naive. And my opinion is no less valid that hers or yours.

    Said a medical student to an experienced doctor (in an average sense)

    As I say, your opinion is as valid as mine w.r.t. a democratic setting. Not in all settings tho' (assuming an average situarion wrt our relative degrees of wisdom.)


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    #622
    ArthurDayne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    MideBear wrote: »
    I was undecided for a long time and had thought long and hard about quite a few angles to it all and read and listened to a great many perspectives. I have come to a place where I think I will vote yes even though I personally think abortion is an abhorrent practice.

    Currently abortion is banned out right. Girls and women must travel and very little support is given to them.

    I think that as a society we should be able to craft laws that govern the practice - and this is actually what we are being asked.

    If abortion were made legal here, those people who are dead set against it do not have to avail of it and those due to circumstance who may need the procedure do not have to travel and could receive the care and support at home here

    Absolutely right. I don't think anyone ever feels truly "comfortable" with the practice of abortion, but as you say, we need a more nuanced and detailed framework which won't be as stifling as a Constitutional article and which can address the various circumstances.

    It would be great if you could vote Yes today -- let's give this emotive and complex matter the legal framework it needs.


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    #623
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Again not what i said, you must have Susie's condition.
    So what age am i o' oracle ?


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    #624
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Said a medical student to an experienced doctor (in an average sense)

    As I say, your opinion is as valid as mine w.r.t. a democratic setting. Not in all settings tho' (assuming an average situarion wrt our relative degrees of wisdom.)

    I'm not entertaining this talking in riddles nonsense.


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    #625
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Odds on yes now in to 1/10. Evidently punters don't see any indications of a last-minute turnaround...

    Bet levels are evenly split. Apparently half do.


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    #626
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    Owryan wrote: »
    I want to see a repeal of the 8th, but I do not want unlimited abortion for the the first 12 weeks as planned. More than happy for abortion in specific circumstances.

    So, it's probably vote yes but lobby my TDs, 2 of them are against abortion as it is.

    This! A million times this!
    I have already said it to NO voters who insist on voting no because they want to hold out for better legislation. You had 35 years to get better legislation, all voting no will do is remove the possibilty of opening up the floor to further debate on the exact fine print of any new laws. The 8th needs to be removed before legislation can be discussed.


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    #627
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    I'm not sure what special contribution an cardiologist has to make.

    I'm content to accept the broad consensus of OB/GYNs instead, if you prefer.


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    #628
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,126 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    Ok so seen as you are stalking me, what age did i say ?
    Do you also believe everything you read ?

    Is your argument actually based on telling people that they should not believe your own posts?


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    #629
    MideBear
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭MideBear


    ArthurDayne wrote: »
    Absolutely right. I don't think anyone ever feels truly "comfortable" with the practice of abortion, but as you say, we need a more nuanced and detailed framework which won't be as stifling as a Constitutional article and which can address the various circumstances.

    It would be great if you could vote Yes today -- let's give this emotive and complex matter the legal framework it needs.

    I think I might have to. I don't feel comfortable inflicting my values on YOU if you have differing ones.


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    #630
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MideBear wrote: »
    I think I might have to. I don't feel comfortable inflicting my values on YOU if you have differing ones.

    As mature a discussion as I've seen on this topic


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    #631
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm content to accept the broad consensus of OB/GYNs instead, if you prefer.

    You misunderstand the analogy. Medical student view less valid than an experienced doctor view in a medical setting.

    This is a life experience / moral / worldview / political / legal / medical / spiritual / etc/ etc. setting.

    With all due, what has an 18 year old male got to base his views on.

    But its a democratic setting thst counts today All X's are equal


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