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The Dilemma of the Undecideds in the abortion referendum

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    #452
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    ArthurDayne wrote: »
    Pal, I'm just trying to figure out what you're actually standing for here. I had it in my mind that you were a No voter, then I read that comment you made about a foetus becoming a human around the time of the UK abortion limit. It just confuses me a little but feel free to clarify your stance or link me to a previous comment you've written which clarifies it.

    Like I said, perhaps I have misunderstood.
    It's pretty easy but the idea that I can have an opinion on something and blow twaddle like "if you're not breathing you're not a human" out of the water because it is utter nonsense seems to have a lot of people confused.
    Are other people so dishonest that they will just agree with any old garbage argument so long as it fits their "side" of the debate? I was hoping otherwise.


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    #453
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,083 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    It's pretty easy but the idea that I can have an opinion on something and blow twaddle like "if you're not breathing you're not a human" out of the water because it is utter nonsense seems to have a lot of people confused.
    Are other people so dishonest that they will just agree with any old garbage argument so long as it fits their "side" of the debate? I was hoping otherwise.
    who said you aren’t human if you aren’t breathing?


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    #454
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    I never defined a fetus in a jar, you did.
    This is symptomatic of your lack of logic here. You attempted to define a foetus based on a location. The womb. The fact that you now claim even saying a foetus could be found somewhere else, in a jar, isn't permitted, just shows how flimsy your definitions are.


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    #455
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    DarkScar wrote: »
    It's pretty easy but the idea that I can have an opinion on something and blow twaddle like "if you're not breathing you're not a human" out of the water because it is utter nonsense seems to have a lot of people confused.
    Are other people so dishonest that they will just agree with any old garbage argument so long as it fits their "side" of the debate? I was hoping otherwise.
    Your 100% right who ever made that argument should be ashamed, pure reductionism. Of course it's more complicated than breathing or not.

    Now that we are all agreed. Care to define your comments of when a fetus human and when it's not?


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    #456
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    who said you aren’t human if you aren’t breathing?
    You did:
    Overheal wrote: »
    They are already alive, living, breathing, and sovereign. Next red herring please.
    Apparently you have to be breathing to be a human. It was part of your definition.
    Sorry about being able to quote you on it and all.


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    #457
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,083 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    This is symptomatic of your lack of logic here. You attempted to define a foetus based on a location. The womb. The fact that you now claim even saying a foetus could be found somewhere else, in a jar, isn't permitted, just shows how flimsy your definitions are.

    But like I said, I don’t have any definition for a fetus in a jar. I have no idea why you brought it up, as fetuses in jars of you want to call them that are not being legislated here.


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    #458
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,083 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    You did:

    Apparently you have to be breathing to be a human. It was part of your definition.
    Sorry about being able to quote you on it and all.

    I said alive, not human?

    That was in response to your question, “[Is] a person on life support alive?”

    Nowhere did either of us mention ‘human’ or ‘humanity.’


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    #459
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Your 100% right who ever made that argument should be ashamed, pure reductionism. Of course it's more complicated than breathing or not.

    Now that we are all agreed. Care to define your comments of when a fetus human and when it's not?
    Have you done so?
    IMO it's when human brain function kicks in, which seems to be 20-24 weeks. Which is why I would also support euthanasia for PVS (no brain function) and would prefer if people wouldn't claim non-PVS people on life support aren't human as they most certainly still do have brain function, even if (oh no) they are currently not breathing.


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    #460
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,083 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Have you done so?
    IMO it's when human brain function kicks in, which seems to be 20-24 weeks. Which is why I would also support euthanasia for PVS (no brain function) and would prefer if people wouldn't claim non-PVS people on life support aren't human as they most certainly still do have brain function, even if (oh no) they are currently not breathing.
    so you’re voting yes.


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    #461
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    But like I said, I don’t have any definition for a fetus in a jar. I have no idea why you brought it up, as fetuses in jars of you want to call them that are not being legislated here.
    A foetus in a jar? Oh, I don't know, it's like a foetus in a womb... only it's in a jar? Hence the location tells you nothing about whether it's human or a foetus? Which was the question if you even care about that any more?


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    #462
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Have you done so?
    IMO it's when human brain function kicks in, which seems to be 20-24 weeks. Which is why I would also support euthanasia for PVS (no brain function) and would prefer if people wouldn't claim non-PVS people on life support aren't human as they most certainly still do have brain function, even if (oh no) they are currently not breathing.

    Yes, many posts ago some time after 12 weeks and before 20.

    Returning to my post about 8 posts ago. If you believe it's not human then what is your issue with abortion?


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    #463
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,083 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    A foetus in a jar? Oh, I don't know, it's like a foetus in a womb... only it's in a jar? Hence the location tells you nothing about whether it's human or a foetus? Which was the question if you even care about that any more?

    You’re the one who brought up fetuses in jars. So define it however you like. I just don’t care - fetuses in jars aren’t being debated here. Fetuses in jars won’t gestate into living, sovereign beings. Fetsuses in jars are certainly by nobody’s definitions alive either.


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    #464
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    You’re the one who brought up fetuses in jars. So define it however you like. I just don’t care - fetuses in jars aren’t being debated here. Fetuses in jars won’t gestate into living, sovereign beings. Fetsuses in jars are certainly by nobody’s definitions alive either.
    This is just deliberate nonsense at this stage. If you're going to define something based on its location then claim it being found in a different location means it is a completely different thing, then all you're at is verbal sleight of hand.
    It's not an elephant, elephants live on the Savannah not in the zoo. So it's a zoo elephant, not an elephant at all.
    Is that trick really your point?


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    #465
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    what is your issue with abortion?
    Why don't you tell me your issue first? You're all badgering but not too keen to offer up anything yourself, aren't you?


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    #466
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    I said alive, not human?

    That was in response to your question, “[Is] a person on life support alive?”

    Nowhere did either of us mention ‘human’ or ‘humanity.’
    Holy cow, that's even worse. My apologies. Apparently it's not even alive, nevermind a human being, until it's viable outside the womb...
    You're glad you clarified that I'm sure...


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    #467
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    I'm up early in the morning to vote so I'm going to leave one last question for the night.

    DarkScar are there any other non human things you expect women to give up their rights and health care for or is it just fetuses?


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    #468
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,083 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    This is just deliberate nonsense at this stage. If you're going to define something based on its location then claim it being found in a different location means it is a completely different thing, then all you're at is verbal sleight of hand.
    It's not an elephant, elephants live on the Savannah not in the zoo. So it's a zoo elephant, not an elephant at all.
    Is that trick really your point?
    Well since you are insistent:

    An elephant in the zoo is an elephant
    An elephant on the Savannah is an elephant
    An elephant in the jar is a dead elephant

    If a fetus gets delivered outside the womb and attains its birth status (past the point of viability, when it can breathe with or without assistance, etc) then it is not a fetus, it is a child. It is born.

    If the fetus dies in the womb, and is transferred to a jar, it’s a fetus in a jar. If a baby dies after a premature delivery and is transferred to a jar it’s a dead baby in a jar.

    (I very much presume by jar you mean a jar for preservation of organics in a suspension such as alcohol or oil)


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    #469
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Why don't you tell me your issue first? You're all badgering but not too keen to offer up anything yourself, aren't you?

    I'm voting YES. I don't have an issue with the abortion legislation proposed. My position is as plain as day. It's a women's choice, a fetus becomes human some where after 16 weeks, I fully support the proposed legislation.


    Your voting no but can't explain why.


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    #470
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,083 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Why don't you tell me your issue first? You're all badgering but not too keen to offer up anything yourself, aren't you?

    Pretty weak dodge that


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    #471
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,083 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Holy cow, that's even worse. My apologies. Apparently it's not even alive, nevermind a human being, until it's viable outside the womb...
    You're glad you clarified that I'm sure...

    Correct: a fetus is not a living being.


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    #472
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    Well since you are insistent:

    An elephant in the zoo is an elephant
    An elephant on the Savannah is an elephant
    An elephant in the jar is a dead elephant

    If a fetus gets delivered outside the womb and attains its birth status (past the point of viability, when it can breathe with or without assistance, etc) then it is not a fetus, it is a child. It is born.

    If the fetus dies in the womb, and is transferred to a jar, it’s a fetus in a jar. If a baby dies after a premature delivery and is transferred to a jar it’s a dead baby in a jar.

    (I very much presume by jar you mean a jar for preservation of organics in a suspension such as alcohol or oil)
    Ah I see, so now something is "alive" if it is alive and "dead" if it is dead. That's great. All sorted onow.
    Schrodinger cat logic. You find out what it was when you do something to it. It's ducking stool level rubbish really.


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    #473
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    Correct: a fetus is not a living being.
    Wait, what you just said was "alive" just a second ago. Let's see can I pick up the goalposts on the GPS... "living being" is the new qualifier parachuted into the discussion is it? Maybe you'd want to use some stealth technology next time you attempt that?


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    #474
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Have you done so?
    IMO it's when human brain function kicks in, which seems to be 20-24 weeks. Which is why I would also support euthanasia for PVS (no brain function) and would prefer if people wouldn't claim non-PVS people on life support aren't human as they most certainly still do have brain function, even if (oh no) they are currently not breathing.



    DarkScar wrote: »
    ...


    it's when human brain function kicks in, which seems to be 20-24 weeks.

    .


    So you'd have no problem with a 13 week termination then ?


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    #475
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    gctest50 wrote: »
    So you'd have no problem with a 13 week termination then ?
    None at all.
    Does this mean that contesting people who say it isn't alive is forbidden though? It clearly is alive whatever you actually want to call it, but apparently some people here are fighting tooth and nail to insist it isn't.


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    #476
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    ...Are you okay?
    Since I'm wiping the floor with you here, if I'm not OK you should be really really worried about yourself.


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    #477
    fritzelly
    Registered Users Posts: 17,352 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    I'm looking forward to the moment on Saturday where, when these threads come to a natural conclusion, we realise a lot of the undecideds realised their No views should not affect the rest of the country's population and vote yes and the Yes vote wins by a massive majority
    Unfortunately we will then start having the threads about how the No side spearheaded by Mullen and Stein (because you could not have better representatives of the No side) are trying to stop all legislation about how a woman's body should be regarded as more than a vessel for a possible human life

    And I seriously think a lot of the undecideds on the day will be seeing all these Yes badges on people and think am I really right to treat women like second class citizens. I think that happened the same way on the gay marriage bill. It only takes something small as seeing why are all these people saying Yes give us this fundamental human right to deal with our life and bodies as we see fit and not be blindsided by what is a very much catholic led opposition to a repeal of the 8th

    So wear your Yes/Tá badges on the day and show your support for the women of the country - I know I will and I will be proud to wear it and be courteous to those on the no side


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    #478
    ArthurDayne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    DarkScar wrote: »
    None at all.
    Does this mean that saying it isn't alive is forbidden though? It clearly is alive whatever you actually want to call it, but apparently some people here are fighting tooth and nail to insist it isn't.

    So . . . . are you voting to repeal?

    :confused:


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    #479
    DarkScar
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I'm voting YES. I don't have an issue with the abortion legislation proposed. My position is as plain as day. It's a women's choice, a fetus becomes human some where after 16 weeks, I fully support the proposed legislation.


    Your voting no but can't explain why.
    I'm voting for abortion up to 20 weeks (or whatever up to that is offered). I'm just not sure I'm voting for it now in this repeal referendum or in the next one where it'll likely be an amendment to the constitution with similar wording to the draft legislation.


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    #480
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,083 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Wait, what you just said was "alive" just a second ago. Let's see can I pick up the goalposts on the GPS... "living being" is the new qualifier parachuted into the discussion is it? Maybe you'd want to use some stealth technology next time you attempt that?

    Don’t know why you’re having the breakdown, but I’m just trying to help you out here based on the context of your argument.

    You seem to think that the fetus is ‘alive’ in the womb because the fetal tissue is alive. But that doesn’t mean the fetus is a living being, to me anyway. Similarly a human body is still ‘alive’ after death for quite a number of days and in some instances weeks, it’s quite a gruesome process really by which different bodily functions cease and different bacteria that make us up start to decompose the corpse. Quite inversely, a number of cells and tissue groups are working in the womb to gestate a complete organism we recognize as human, over the course of 37 weeks. These cells and tissues are ‘alive’ but the being they are creating and are apart of is incomplete and frankly, to my view and that of others, is not the same as calling that fetus “alive,” aka. A living being. When it has exited or been removed from the womb and is operating on life support (almost always its own, heart lungs etc but could be an external man made device sure) we all agree this fetus is considered born, it is a baby.

    Does this answer your questions?


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    #481
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,083 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Since I'm wiping the floor with you here, if I'm not OK you should be really really worried about yourself.

    If you say so?


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