The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Berserker · 24-05-2018 08:36PM

Huntergonzo wrote: »

This is very true, I will be voting Yes but I to admit, I have a deep dislike for some of the hipsters and feminist types that also tend to be on the Yes side.....then again the No side has Ronan Mullen, Maria Steen and the catholic church so there's lunatics on both sides really.

There are some absolutely tulips on both sides. I'm beginning to think that some of the feminazi campaigners are turning people into 'No' voters and the hard-line 'No' campaigners are doing the opposite.

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Culturally, when it comes to family values and morality it's closest to spain/Portugal/Italy then any of the northern European countries.

They all have rates of abortion much lower then the UK and closer to Ireland's current probable rate.

Can you provide a few studies to back up your theory?

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 08:37PM

Paranoid Bob wrote: »

The vote tomorrow is not on the legislation.
The vote tomorrow is on the opportunity to have a debate on what the legislation should be.

I absolutely respect the view that the proposed legislation is too broad, but there will never be a better time to improve it than right now; and if we pass on this opportunity there will not be another for many, many years.

The vote tomorrow removes likely forever constitutional protection for the unborn. People need to think about what that means. No more protection and their fate is subject to political whims and trends. If a far left socialist government ever make it to power their fate is doomed. The 12 week unrestricted option is too extreme.

NIMAN · 24-05-2018 08:37PM

I have no doubt YES will win, and the official stats for the coming years will be interesting to see exactly how many procedures are carried out in Ireland.

Itssoeasy · 24-05-2018 08:38PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

But I'm talking about repealing it with that proviso - that this would be on the cards if it were repealed. But that's not what is being proposed.

Well the bill is a draft. If the 8th is repealed I can see it being a very long drawn out process with amendments all over the shop. Who's to say that won't be suggested and possibly included. There are enough no vote TDs in the oireachtas to where it will take only a few abstentions for an amendment to pass.

That's not what we are being asked to vote on though. We are being asked whether we want to retain or repeal an amendment to the constitution.

ArmaniJeanss · 24-05-2018 08:39PM

Buagh wrote: »

All "Yes" groups funded by billionaire soros

Welcome, new poster.

pleas advice · 24-05-2018 08:40PM

Shenshen wrote: »

So you advocate to vote "No" because Britain has the better health service?

Just when I thought I had heard the most cynical thing the No side can come up with...

I've seen plenty advocate 'yes' because Britain has a better health service, or they think ours will magically transform to some kind of NHS utopia after the 8th is repealed.

Itssoeasy · 24-05-2018 08:40PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The vote tomorrow removes likely forever constitutional protection for the unborn. People need to think about what that means. No more protection and their fate is subject to political whims and trends. If a far left socialist government ever make it to power their fate is doomed. The 12 week unrestricted option is too extreme.

The far left ? The PBP and that ilk are never getting a say in government in this country. We have an arse wats political divide in Ireland which isn't a traditional left right split.

NIMAN · 24-05-2018 08:40PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Also, NIMAN this isn't against you but can certain posters please stop attacking the health service ? Yes there are issues in it and yes it's not perfect, but the healthcare professionals and other supporting staff work bloody hard and they aren't failing and don't go around intending to "botch" things. :mad:

I don't think I slagged off the health service, I am always a supporter of it tbh.

Any experience I have had of it in Ireland is very positive. In fact I often castigate posters on Boards for calling it a third world service.

NuMarvel · 24-05-2018 08:41PM

Buagh wrote: »

All "Yes" groups funded by billionaire soros

All of them?? That cheating bastich, he said I was the only one for him!

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 08:41PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Actual uk abortion stats, linked numerous times in this thread

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679028/Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

Those are comparing the past few years and not giving the actual picture.

In 1967 when it was brought in, the abortion rate was less than 3%.

In 2016, it was over 20%.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedkingdom.html

Thoughts?

Berserker · 24-05-2018 08:42PM

Buagh wrote: »

All "Yes" groups funded by billionaire soros

What a first post! Are you refereeing to the Hungarian investor Soros? Oh and the 'No' groups are funded by incredibly wealthy organisations themselves. I'm shocked by the amount of posters etc that they have. Would love to see an end to this business of putting posters everywhere but that's for another day.

fergus1001 · 24-05-2018 08:42PM

DarkScar wrote:

They've already hinted that if it's No then very soon pretty much the same proposed legislation will be offered as an amendment referendum. Which I would be 100% behind.

they have already stated once in a generation vote, truly hope your no vote doesn't come knocking on your door some day

Try_harder wrote:

The Orange Order calls for a No... surprising...

it's because they know a united ireland is coming

NIMAN · 24-05-2018 08:42PM

1 in 5 women in the UK who got pregnant had an abortion?

Shocking figures.

Itssoeasy · 24-05-2018 08:42PM

NIMAN wrote: »

I don't think I slagged off the health service, I am always a supporter of it tbh.

Any experience I have had of it in Ireland is very positive. In fact I often castigate posters on Boards for calling it a third world service.

I didn't say you did which is why I put in the part about it not being about you. I'm the same but it's a touchy subject for me for personal reasons.

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 08:42PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

No it isn't...it's them telling someone they've been raped before being handed a form to certify it.

That’s the whole point you keep missing. The rape and the abortion need to be separated. Women that have been raped are traumatised, many for years. Many NEVER come forward. If you are going to make them sign a form you are just going to fail to enable them to abort the baby that is a product of that rape. The ordeal needs to be separate to enable them to access the service.

pleas advice · 24-05-2018 08:42PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

Incredible how many people there are who don't know what they are actually being asked to vote on tomorrow?

incredible how many think the government will legislate for anything less than unrestricted up to 12 weeks if the referendum is passed. it would be political suicide

Tipperary animal lover · 24-05-2018 08:42PM

lads any here from "end of the road" in the last few days ....he was always good for a thanks even if he was the only one

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 08:43PM

Grayditch wrote: »

I don't know how anyone can really call the result now. There has at times been an element of browbeating No voters into silence, but the polling booths are private. Saying that I feel that of the two campaigns (posters/canvass/debate wise), the Yes side have carried themselves with a huge amount of honesty, dignity and most importantly compassion and I'm hoping that shines through for what my in opinion is the best result for this country: a win for repealing the 8th.

Exit poll results announced at the end of the Late Late. Eep!

NIMAN · 24-05-2018 08:43PM

Dressing gown wrote: »

That’s the whole point you keep missing. The rape and the abortion need to be separated. Women that have been raped are traumatised, many for years. Many NEVER come forward. If you are going to make them sign a form you are just going to fail to enable them to abort the baby that is a product of that rape. The ordeal needs to be separate to enable them to access the service.

Seems to work in other countries who have this requirement.

With the added bonus of catching rapists, which is a good thing surely?

Berserker · 24-05-2018 08:46PM

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

lads any here from "end of the road" in the last few days ....he was always good for a thanks even if he was the only one

Probably off having a well deserved rest. The poor fecker was overworked here for weeks defending all those SF gaffs.

Dressing gown · 24-05-2018 08:47PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The vote tomorrow removes likely forever constitutional protection for the unborn. People need to think about what that means. No more protection and their fate is subject to political whims and trends. If a far left socialist government ever make it to power their fate is doomed. The 12 week unrestricted option is too extreme.

Ireland had a constitution long before the 8th amendment. The unborn does not need constitutional protection. Any of us born prior to 83 are testament to that fact. It’s utter nonsense that the 8th is saving lives. It’s just wrecking them.

Digital_Guy · 24-05-2018 08:47PM

Dressing gown wrote: »

That’s the whole point you keep missing. The rape and the abortion need to be separated. Women that have been raped are traumatised, many for years. Many NEVER come forward. If you are going to make them sign a form you are just going to fail to enable them to abort the baby that is a product of that rape. The ordeal needs to be separate to enable them to access the service.

I don't think you really believe that! Are you saying that taking a few seconds to sign a form to say they have been raped when they HAVE been raped would prevent them from going through with the termination?

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 08:48PM

ohmiamy wrote: »

Rape victims may account for a "tiny number" of pregnancies but does that mean that they do not matter? The way you speak about women who become pregnant after rape makes them sound like they are completely insignificant to you. Also, I don't really understand this idea from the no side of abortion for rape victims by all means but not for healthy babies. A rape victim will more than likely be terminating a healthy baby. So why in your opinion, is it ok to abort a healthy baby conceived through rape but not a healthy baby of a girl who is just about to start her leaving cert?

I have said repeatedly victims of rape need every support including abortion if they request it so lets knock that one on the head. I disagree with unrestricted abortion available to everyone up to 12 weeks. It should be available to the unfortunate cases i have spoken about before.

PhoenixParker · 24-05-2018 08:48PM

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Those are comparing the past few years and not giving the actual picture.

In 1967 when it was brought in, the abortion rate was less than 3%.

In 2016, it was over 20%.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedkingdom.html

Thoughts?

My thoughts are that what you stated in your first post was factually incorrect.

On the stats themselves:

The abortion rate in the UK peaked in 2006 and has been falling since with really positive signs for teenage pregnancy.

The 1968 figures account for only 8 months of data, it wasn’t legal for the full year.
By 1972 they were carrying out 159,000 abortions per year in the UK.

Do I wish the rate was lower, of course.
Do I think the numbers warrant some major clampdown on abortion, no.
Contraception, sex education and support services are far more effective ways of reducing abortion rates.

bennyl10 · 24-05-2018 08:48PM

NIMAN wrote: »

1 in 5 women in the UK who got pregnant had an abortion?

Shocking figures.

figure is wildly inaccurate

it counts every abortion in the uk, not including the amount of those that come form other countries such as here,
the figure also factors in all pregnancies, without noting those which have were miscarried, ectopic or stillborn.

the actual figure of abortions vs those born healthily in the uk is closer to 1 in 10/11

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-05-2018 08:48PM

Buagh wrote: »

All "Yes" groups funded by billionaire soros

Well now, this is a game changer, care to elaborate?

NIMAN · 24-05-2018 08:48PM

Agree, surely if you had been put through the traumatic event of being raped, you'd have no bother signing a form to say so?

NuMarvel · 24-05-2018 08:49PM

pleas advice wrote: »

incredible how many think the government will legislate for anything less than unrestricted up to 12 weeks if the referendum is passed. it would be political suicide

The government doesn't pass legislation. The Oireachtas does. And in this Oireachtas, government parties are in the minority, abortion isn't covered as part of the agreement with FF, and in any case TDs in the two largest parties have a free vote.

The Government ministers may propose 12 weeks, but it's not guaranteed to pass that way.

NIMAN wrote: »

Seems to work in other countries who have this requirement.

With the added bonus of catching rapists, which is a good thing surely?

Does it work? In countries that have a rape clause, how many abortions are carried out under it? And how does their conviction rate for rapists compare to ours?

erica74 · 24-05-2018 08:50PM

Oh dear, it seems some people still don't understand what they are actually voting on tomorrow. Please educate yourselves.
This is a referendum to remove the 8th from our constitution, without removing the 8th NOTHING WILL CHANGE.
The "hard" cases will continue to be exported. Women will continue to be denied healthcare. Women who need an abortion will not be able to get one legally in Ireland.
Don't say you want change, don't say you want abortion for rape victims and for babies with FFA and then say you won't vote to repeal the 8th because then the change you want won't happen. For the last time, if you vote no, nothing will change, nothing.

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2018 08:50PM

Surely someone was taking the piss out of them with this and they've run with it?

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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