The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

B0jangles

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IzzyKamikaze/status/999662369465921536

Carrick as in Carrick-on-Shannon?


Where just recently a SaveThe8th poster van was allowed park behind the garda station, and when some gardai told reporters about it because they felt it was a misuse of garda property, the Superintendent's response was to demand to know the names of the gardai who blabbed?

Nettle Soup

Try_harder wrote: »

https://twitter.com/naomiohreally/status/999440104644136961?s=21

Thanks!

It's as bad as I remember.

The lack of empathy is astounding.

Huntergonzo

Try_harder wrote: »

Like the Marriage Referendum, some people just cant own their No, and blame the Yes side for them voting No!

Fooling no one!

This is very true, I will be voting Yes but I to admit, I have a deep dislike for some of the hipsters and feminist types that also tend to be on the Yes side.....then again the No side has Ronan Mullen, Maria Steen and the catholic church so there's lunatics on both sides really.

spookwoman

gmisk wrote: »

No voters..... standard.
https://twitter.com/elaineroisin/status/999580415554916353?s=19
Quares!!!

https://twitter.com/timmydooley/status/999344598274269185?s=19

im charging my camera love taking pics of lightning

Hotblack Desiato

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

Both sides have now come full circle meeting in the centre, behaving as bad as each other.

BS and you know it. The No campaign has been despicable.

Try_harder

Huntergonzo wrote: »

This is very true, I will be voting Yes but I to admit, I have a deep dislike for some of the hipsters and feminist types that also tend to be on the Yes side.....then again the No side has Ronan Mullen, Maria Steen and the catholic church so there's lunatics on both sides really.

I vote on the issue, not the bandwagoners

It still pisses me off seeing Ar Gurry front and centre at the Marriage Referendum result

PhoenixParker

Berserker wrote: »

It'll depend on the cost of having an abortion. If it's free then people will take use it as another option. If you have to pay for it or pay for some of it, it'll put a stop to that kind of business.



The RoI is far more like the UK than the Netherlands culturally.

Culturally, when it comes to family values and morality it's closest to spain/Portugal/Italy then any of the northern European countries.

They all have rates of abortion much lower then the UK and closer to Ireland's current probable rate.

Digital_Guy

I think people need to read this article if they want to see what's ahead if they vote yes. This is the kind of stuff you won't hear much of, and it's not an article on the Iona Institute or some right-wing American website, it's the Guardian!!

Highlights:

-Abortion at an all-time high in England and Wales (this article is from 2016, so you can probably take it those figures have increased further).

-Most women are having *multiple* abortions - almost four in 10 terminations are now carried out on women who have undergone the procedure before.

-The Royal College of Midwives (of all people) want no time limit on abortions!! Horrific.

This week the Royal College of Midwives was accused of backing a campaign by pro-choice groups to decriminalise termination, including removing the legal time limit of 24 weeks for most abortions, without consulting members.

-40% of abortions are surgical - the innocent foetus getting sucked out with a vacuum.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

This just shows how far it's gone.

And also, read up on it but it is now a criminal offence in France to even try to dissuade someone from having an abortion. That's how far it's gone over there!

Nettle Soup

Huntergonzo wrote: »

This is very true, I will be voting Yes but I to admit, I have a deep dislike for some of the hipsters and feminist types that also tend to be on the Yes side.....then again the No side has Ronan Mullen, Maria Steen and the catholic church so there's lunatics on both sides really.

You're forgetting John Waters, John McGuirk, Mattie McGrath, Declan Ganley, David Quinn, Fidelma Healy Eames and 2 Healy Rayes.

NuMarvel

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Au contraire, I most definitely do and I referred to this earlier. If someone has been raped, all they should need to do is sign a document to that effect. That's it, no questions asked.

The Dublin Rape Crisis Centre has spoken out against that kind of approach, where someone has to declare a rape in order to access abortion.

More fundamentally, this would be impossible while any version of the 8th is in place. You can't have a clause that obliges the state to respect, defend and vindicate the unborn's right to life, and then expect it can be overturned with a self-declaration of a criminal act. A law like that would be struck down as unconstitutional in seconds.

Digital_Guy

namloc1980 wrote: »

Let's say the proposed legislation was very restrictive and only dealt with hard cases. You still need to vote yes tomorrow to get rid of the 8th to allow that. But then in the future another government could liberalise the law. I think a lot of No voters genuinely don't understand what tomorrow's vote is about.

Well I understand completely. I understand that they could have proposed something other than what is being proposed, but they didn't. If they did I am sure there'd be vastly fewer no voters and much less chance of it being defeated.

igCorcaigh

Nettle Soup wrote: »

You're forgetting John Waters, John McGuirk, Mattie McGrath, Declan Ganley, David Quinn, Fidelma Healy Eames and 2 Healy Rayes.

I would love to be able to.

PhoenixParker

Digital_Guy wrote: »

I think people need to read this article if they want to see what's ahead if they vote yes. This is the kind of stuff you won't hear much of, and it's not an article on the Iona Institute or some right-wing American website, it's the Guardian!!

Highlights:

-Abortion at an all-time high in England and Wales (this article is from 2016, so you can probably take it those figures have increased further).

-Most women are having *multiple* abortions - almost four in 10 terminations are now carried out on women who have undergone the procedure before.

-The Royal College of Midwives (of all people) want no time limit on abortions!! Horrific.

This week the Royal College of Midwives was accused of backing a campaign by pro-choice groups to decriminalise termination, including removing the legal time limit of 24 weeks for most abortions, without consulting members.

-40% of abortions are surgical - the innocent foetus getting sucked out with a vacuum.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

This just shows how far it's gone.

And also, read up on it but it is now a criminal offence in France to even try to dissuade someone from having an abortion. That's how far it's gone over there!

The absolute number of abortions in the UK has fallen in spite of an increasing population.

The birth rate has fallen faster so the ratio of abortions o live births has increased but that's not really he highest abortion rate ever.

Digital_Guy

NuMarvel wrote: »

The Dublin Rape Crisis Centre has spoken out against that kind of approach, where someone has to declare a rape in order to access abortion.

More fundamentally, this would be impossible while any version of the 8th is in place. You can't have a clause that obliges the state to respect, defend and vindicate the unborn's right to life, and then expect it can be overturned with a self-declaration of a criminal act. A law like that would be struck down as unconstitutional in seconds.

But I'm talking about repealing it with that proviso - that this would be on the cards if it were repealed. But that's not what is being proposed.

Cupcake_Crisis

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Well I understand completely. I understand that they could have proposed something other than what is being proposed, but they didn't. If they did I am sure there'd be vastly fewer no voters and much less chance of it being defeated.

They DID propose other things. Twice. And twice they were shot down.

Digital_Guy

PhoenixParker wrote: »

The absolute number of abortions in the UK has fallen in spite of an increasing population.

The birth rate has fallen faster so the ratio of abortions o live births has increased but that's not really he highest abortion rate ever.

What matters are the actual abortion numbers, I think you'd want to provide a source for those claims if there are figures out there that refute what the Guardian is saying.

Huntergonzo

Try_harder wrote: »

I vote on the issue, not the bandwagoners

It still pisses me off seeing Ar Gurry front and centre at the Marriage Referendum result

Same as that, read the proposal, educate yourself if you have to then make a decision. It's laughable when you hear people saying they're voting a certain way just because the other side annoyed them.

Ar Gurry is (or at least was at the time) a politician, what else can you expect, it's absolutely vital for them to jump on feel good bandwagons and be seen doing so.

Overheal

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Au contraire, I most definitely do and I referred to this earlier. If someone has been raped, all they should need to do is sign a document to that effect. That's it, no questions asked.

Because that wouldn’t already be listed in their medical record?

Fail to see why you think that could be enforced for truthfulness or accuracy.

gctest50

Digital_Guy wrote: »

But I'm talking about repealing it with that proviso - that this would be on the cards if it were repealed. But that's not what is being proposed.

If it's repealed abortion will still be illegal until it's sorted out

Why are you so afraid and jittery ?

PhoenixParker

Digital_Guy wrote: »

What matters are the actual abortion numbers, I think you'd want to provide a source for those claims if there are figures out there that refute what the Guardian is saying.

Total number
 The total number of abortions was 185,596 in 2016, slightly lower than in 2015 (185,824)
and 4.2% lower than in 2006 (193,737). The total number of abortions per year has remained relatively constant at around 185,000 since 2012.
Abortion rates
 The age-standardised abortion rate was 16.0 per 1,000 resident women aged 15-44. This is
the same as 2015 and 9.1% lower than in 2006 (17.6).
 The abortion rate was highest for women at the age of 22 (at 27.9 per 1,000). The highest
rate in 2015 was for women at the age of 21 (at 28.7 per 1,000).
 The under-16 abortion rate was 1.7 per 1,000 women and the under-18 rate was 8.9 per
1,000 women. Both lower than in 2015 (2.0 and 9.9 per 1,000 women respectively) and in the year 2006 (3.9 and 18.2 per 1,000 women respectively).

Actual uk abortion stats, linked numerous times in this thread

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679028/Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

Conservatory

igCorcaigh wrote: »

https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/999440104644136961

You seem to think the no side are all priest bots like these. We arnt we arnt even campaigning or getting involved. I see no side campaigning as priest wannabes that failed the priest exam and the yes campaigners as students with a cause but there is a huge middle ground of people sat at home not on any agenda worried about the issue.
On both sides.
It’s not a fashion statement, a crusade, a cool t shirt, a way to celebrate the baby Jesus or stick it to the baby Jesus.
It’s people calmly deciding. I think there will be a bit of unrest over the next weeks by sore losers in this but most people are in the middle hoping to do the right thing and not get a win to feed their ego.
I seen a pub holding a repeal night in town the other day and thought how sad it was that companies and celebs are selling their products by using this issue. It’s nothing to celebrate either way.
I voted yes on gay marriage and would have voted yes on divorce and definitely would have voted for fatal fetal abortions but this referendum leaves the door open too far for my liking.
If it’s voted in I won’t be delighted but I accept that the public gets what the public wants and can just hope abortions on demand don’t roll straight in.
Anyway I’m not getting stuck in here tonight I’ll drop in tomorrow maybe.

ohmiamy

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Rape victims represent a tiny proportion of overall pregnancies in this country. There are over 60,000 pregnancies in Ireland every year. The number of pregnant rape victims would be tiny in comparison.

Introducing potentially unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks for every single unborn baby to deal with a tiny number of pregnant rape victims is not the solution. Abortion for rape victims by all means but for healthy babies is an extreme step.

Rape victims may account for a "tiny number" of pregnancies but does that mean that they do not matter? The way you speak about women who become pregnant after rape makes them sound like they are completely insignificant to you. Also, I don't really understand this idea from the no side of abortion for rape victims by all means but not for healthy babies. A rape victim will more than likely be terminating a healthy baby. So why in your opinion, is it ok to abort a healthy baby conceived through rape but not a healthy baby of a girl who is just about to start her leaving cert?

nullzero

It's worrying how people who are in favour of abortion when required on medical grounds but don't agree with so called abortion on demand are being dumped in with the lunatic element of the No campaign as soon as they raise their concerns about what's being proposed.

I've had discussions here where yes voters are saying abortions should be available for issues like disability or a cleft lip at any point, things which are not within the proposed changes, which in reality are in the future potentially malleable in the hands of yet to be elected public representatives.
Notions such as men not being valid participants in this referendum because of their gender are every but as nauseating to anybody with a modicum of intelligence as discrimination against women based solely on their gender.
It sickens me that women who need abortions are criminalized in this country and that we ship Irish women to Britain to seek the treatment they need but I don't believe that abortion on demand is the solution we need.
Ultimately the fringe elements on both sides have essentially hijacked this debate and the political class really should have stayed away from what is a social issue, instead we have formerly pro life politicians getting on board with something they themselves condemned which yet again proves how untrustworthy these parasites are.
How many women will see abortion as the only viable solution in a country with a housing crisis as depressingly unsolvable as ours where the odds are so stacked against any honest person ever making a decent life for themselves?
I do believe the Yes vote will win out, I just hope that a system is implemented that cares for women and provides them with adequate support and information on seeking an abortion and afterwards as it is a life altering decision that requires proper supports which might be hard to see being provided in a country with such a poor track record in its public health system.

Dressing gown

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Au contraire, I most definitely do and I referred to this earlier. If someone has been raped, all they should need to do is sign a document to that effect. That's it, no questions asked.

That is asking them a question though.

Huntergonzo

Nettle Soup wrote: »

You're forgetting John Waters, John McGuirk, Mattie McGrath, Declan Ganley, David Quinn, Fidelma Healy Eames and 2 Healy Rayes.

Well those aswell, but I have to admit, I absolutely love John Waters, the man is pure entertainment, he's as mad as a sack of monkeys on cocaine.

I'm going to be bitterly disappointed tomorrow if when I put an x in the Yes box, my pencil doesn't turn into a knife, just like Waters has proclaimed it will.

Overheal

bleary

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Do you know 20 women who have had abortions? I am 99.99% certain you don't, and I'd say there is almost nobody in Ireland who does. Why? Because there is a very low abortion rate (relatively at least), and no culture of abortion - one where it is really acceptable and commonplace to have one.

Do you know many women who've been diagnosed with breast cancer? Because more women gave irish addresses in clinics last year than were diagnosed with breast cancer.
Up till recently I would have said I knew no-one who had an abortion I only know now 2 close friends who have had .
The stats tell me I know a lot more. They just can't tell me or their other friends or even their GP. That's the culture we have.

Digital_Guy

Overheal wrote: »

Because that wouldn’t already be listed in their medical record?

Fail to see why you think that could be enforced for truthfulness or accuracy.

What about trusting women?!

And I am guessing the number of people who would say they were raped when they weren't would be very low indeed.

Digital_Guy

Dressing gown wrote: »

That is asking them a question though.

No it isn't...it's them telling someone they've been raped before being handed a form to certify it.

NuMarvel

Digital_Guy wrote: »

But I'm talking about repealing it with that proviso - that this would be on the cards if it were repealed. But that's not what is being proposed.

That's effectively what's being proposed. All that's different is that the government has removed the self-declaration part because the experts in the field have cautioned against it.

But if they left it in, you can be sure the No side would be running almost EXACTLY the same campaign they're running now. This is the back door to abortion on demand they'd say; it'll open the floodgates, they'd say. Are you really telling me that all the people who say they're worried about the 12 weeks on request aspect wouldn't have similar concerns about a self-declaration model? That they'd suddenly start trusting women because they've said the pregnancy was because of rape? I find that very, very hard to believe, especially given what we saw during and after the Belfast rape trials.