The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Shurimgreat

Dressing gown wrote: »

Ireland had a constitution long before the 8th amendment. The unborn does not need constitutional protection. Any of us born prior to 83 are testament to that fact. It’s utter nonsense that the 8th is saving lives. It’s just wrecking them.

We were born and grew up in Catholic Ireland and the Dail reflected that. We were safe enough.
Todays and future Dails are very different with a strong influence from left wing parties and liberals in parties like FG. They want and will introduce abortion on demand.

Try_harder

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Surely someone was taking the piss out of them with this and they've run with it?

Now he's somebody I just used to know

NIMAN

Can I ask another question thats been on my mind.

If YES wins tomorrow, can the Government legislate for whatever they want in terms of abortion, with the population having no say?

In other words, can they move the goalposts whenever they want, be it now or in 10yrs time, or will they need to ask the people again if they want to extend the 12 weeks to 24 weeks for example?

Berserker

pleas advice wrote: »

incredible how many think the government will legislate for anything less than unrestricted up to 12 weeks if the referendum is passed. it would be political suicide

Really, I fully expect that to get binned pretty quickly. Think the three day waiting period has a decent chance of staying in place.

ArmaniJeanss

Digital_Guy wrote: »

Those are comparing the past few years and not giving the actual picture.

In 1967 when it was brought in, the abortion rate was less than 3%.

In 2016, it was over 20%.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedkingdom.html

Thoughts?

Just a general thought that I've never got this idea that we have huge cultural commonality with the derelict and desolate mining & shipbuilding cities of the North of England or Scotland, and their 1970s sink estates.
Places long since abandoned by successive Westminster governments.

I think we actually have as much in common with the family-orientated a-la-carte Catholics of the likes of Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. I'd expect our abortion figures to eventually mirror these latter countries rather than the UK.
But there you go, the UK has become an easy comparison for No because watching Corrie and supporting Arsenal apparently means you'll have the same attitude to social issues as those countries.

Digital_Guy

PhoenixParker wrote: »

My thoughts are that what you stated was factually incorrect.

The abortion rate in the UK peaked in 2006 and has been falling since with really positive signs for teenage pregnancy.

The 1968 figures account for only 8 months of data, it wasn’t legal for the full year.
By 1972 they were carrying out 159,000 abortions per year in the UK.

Do I wish the rate was lower, of course.
Do I think the numbers warrant some major clampdown on abortion, no.
Contraception, sex education and support services are far more effective ways of reducing abortion rates.

What part of less than 3% vs over 20% is factually incorrect?

You're also misunderstanding or not getting what the % abortion rate means, as you're mentioning the 8 months of data part. It doesn't matter that it was only 8 months (and that's only one year anyway), because the % abortion rate refers to the rate of abortions as a percentage of pregnancies.

So less than 3% of pregnancies resulted in an abortion in 1967.

In 2016, that was 20%.

What does that tell you?

Dressing gown

Digital_Guy wrote: »

I don't think you really believe that! Are you saying that taking a few seconds to sign a form to say they have been raped when they HAVE been raped would prevent them from going through with the termination?

Yes.

I also think it would never work as a system as the cynics would say it is the equivalent of ground C in the UK system.

There are reasons why such a suggestion has already been considered and dismissed.

Try_harder

Shurimgreat wrote: »

We were born and grew up in Catholic Ireland and the Dail reflected that. We were safe enough.
Todays and future Dails are very different with a strong influence from left wing parties or liberals in parties like FG.

Who was safe? Women? No. Children? No. Babies??? Even babies were sold to America or disposed of if they weren't healthy enough to sell.

oneilla

If the referendum was decided based on the number of people walking around the centre of Dublin wearing badges and shirts then Yes would easily carry it. There were far more people handing out flyers and stickers for Yes as well.

Shurimgreat

erica74 wrote: »

Oh dear, it seems some people still don't understand what they are actually voting on tomorrow. Please educate yourselves.
This is a referendum to remove the 8th from our constitution, without removing the 8th NOTHING WILL CHANGE.
The "hard" cases will continue to be exported. Women will continue to be denied healthcare. Women who need an abortion will not be able to get one legally in Ireland.
Don't say you want change, don't say you want abortion for rape victims and for babies with FFA and then say you won't vote to repeal the 8th because then the change you want won't happen. For the last time, if you vote no, nothing will change, nothing.

Using the small number of unfortunate hard cases to introduce unrestricted abortion for everyone up to 12 weeks is not the answer. You know well hard case abortions under that regime will be a tiny proportion.

I'd vote Yes to a referendum if it dealt seriously and solely with the hard cases rather than introducing an extremely liberalised abortion regime which puts non hard case babies at risk.

Dressing gown

Digital_Guy wrote: »

What part of less than 3% vs over 20% is factually incorrect?

You're also misunderstanding or not getting what the % abortion rate means, as you're mentioning the 8 months of data part. It doesn't matter that it was only 8 months (and that's only one year anyway), because the % abortion rate refers to the rate of abortions as a percentage of pregnancies.

So less than 3% of pregnancies resulted in an abortion in 1967.

In 2016, that was 20%.

What does that tell you?

I’ll tell you what it tells you.

England and Wales have had abortion for over 50 years.

Ireland has not.

If we were really that much like England and Wales culturally we would have had legal abortion in this country a very long time ago.

The comparisons are a fruitless exercise.

Guy:Incognito

NIMAN wrote: »

If YES wins tomorrow, can the Government legislate for whatever they want in terms of abortion, with the population having no say?

The Dail (all of it, not just the government) will vote on any legislation, just like any other subject.

Digital_Guy

NIMAN wrote: »

Can I ask another question thats been on my mind.

If YES wins tomorrow, can the Government legislate for whatever they want in terms of abortion, with the population having no say?

In other words, can they move the goalposts whenever they want, be it now or in 10yrs time, or will they need to ask the people again if they want to extend the 12 weeks to 24 weeks for example?

Of course! We elect them to make and change laws via the Oireachtas.

Huntergonzo

Berserker wrote: »

There are some absolutely tulips on both sides. I'm beginning to think that some of the feminazi campaigners are turning people into 'No' voters and the hard-line 'No' campaigners are doing the opposite.

You make a fair point, and I've often wondered if people like the feminazis & John Waters are actually double agents for the other side.

I mean to take Waters for example, he comes across as so bat**** insane, he's almost perfect to dissuade people from voting No. Is he a plant from the Yes side?......probably not, I'm not in to conspiracy theories but it wouldn't surprise me either!

Overheal

Digital_Guy wrote: »

What about trusting women?!

IF YOU TRUST WOMEN VOTE YES!

Dressing gown

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Using the small number of unfortunate hard cases to introduce unrestricted abortion for everyone up to 12 weeks is not the answer. You know well hard case abortions under that regime will be a tiny proportion.

Back to proportions I see. Forgot that you are talking about real people in really crappy circumstances.

pleas advice

murpho999 wrote: »

Stop peddling lies.

After 12 weeks will only be allowed in case of FFA or danger to mother's life.

This has been stated ad nauseum but No side keep twisting it.

irony

bennyl10

NIMAN wrote: »

Can I ask another question thats been on my mind.

If YES wins tomorrow, can the Government legislate for whatever they want in terms of abortion, with the population having no say?

In other words, can they move the goalposts whenever they want, be it now or in 10yrs time, or will they need to ask the people again if they want to extend the 12 weeks to 24 weeks for example?

the oireachtas will yes

the people will get a say at general election time
just like every other law

Overheal

Buagh wrote: »

All "Yes" groups funded by billionaire soros

Lol the modern day lizard person scapegoat.

Guy:Incognito

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Using the small number of unfortunate hard cases to introduce unrestricted abortion for everyone up to 12 weeks is not the answer. You know well hard case abortions under that regime will be a tiny proportion.

Even if abortion is brought in, why do you think you are better placed to decide what's best than the women involved?

Shurimgreat

Dressing gown wrote: »

Back to proportions I see. Forgot that you are talking about real people in really crappy circumstances.

Back to misrepresenting what I said I see.

Try_harder

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Surely someone was taking the piss out of them with this and they've run with it?

The guitar gives an Ed Sheehan realness vibes, I'm cool, vote No!

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

IF YOU TRUST WOMEN VOTE YES!

Why would you trust a person predicated solely on their gender?

Digital_Guy

gctest50 wrote: »

If it's repealed abortion will still be illegal until it's sorted out

Why are you so afraid and jittery ?

I'm not....but I'm not in favour of what they are proposing after it's repealed. We already know what they want to introduce.

NuMarvel

NIMAN wrote: »

Can I ask another question thats been on my mind.

If YES wins tomorrow, can the Government legislate for whatever they want in terms of abortion, with the population having no say?

In other words, can they move the goalposts whenever they want, be it now or in 10yrs time, or will they need to ask the people again if they want to extend the 12 weeks to 24 weeks for example?

If the referendum is carried, the Oireachtas can legislate for abortion in the same manner as other matters. The population will have the same say as they currently do in other legislation, which has led to u-turns before, eg the ownership of the new national maternity hospital.

The constitution also has a provision in Article 27 for legislation to be put to a referendum in certain circumstances, and abortion legislation would be included in this.

Guy:Incognito

nullzero wrote: »

Why would you trust a person predicated solely on their gender?

When men can get pregnant we can trust them too.

ohnonotgmail

nullzero wrote: »

Why would you trust a person predicated solely on their gender?

because women are the only gender that can get pregnant. Context is key.

nullzero

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

When men can get pregnant we can trust them too.

That's not addressing the question I asked. But the emotive response is duly noted.

ohnonotgmail

Digital_Guy wrote: »

I'm not....but I'm not in favour of what they are proposing after it's repealed. We already know what they want to introduce.

So you are happy for women to continue to suffer if this is not passed?

Try_harder

nullzero wrote: »

Why would you trust a person predicated solely on their gender?

Its the converse of Women cant be trusted with their own bodies, so we must tell them!