The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Akrasia · 23-05-2018 08:54PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

I disagree. Without the 8th these groups will be marginalised and deemed irrelevant to the discussion. Aside from the hardcore, this will fizzle out -although they may reform under an anti assisted dying campaign, which will probably be the last conservative domino to fall.

Unfortunately the fact that abortion will be on the statute books means that these groups will be constantly lobbying for changes to the legislation to make it more restrictive.

They won't be lobbying for support services to help people who feel they can't support a baby financially, but they'll be lobbying to force them to have children they can't afford.

theballz · 23-05-2018 08:54PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Mod note: Quit that rubbish now! I've deleted posts earlier and I will be banning if this crap continues. There is no reason to bring football teams into the discussion.

BTJ

Thank you.

DickSwiveller · 23-05-2018 08:55PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

The women’s lives aren’t hypothetical.
They’re the women you see around you every day.
Why are you in a better place to decide what’s best for any single one of them then they are?

The baby?

DickSwiveller · 23-05-2018 08:56PM

FingerDeKat wrote: »

Well let him answer:rolleyes:

At 12 weeks they are fetuses btw

Ah the dehumanising trick. And you'd say that if someone you knew had a miscarriage?

Hotblack Desiato · 23-05-2018 08:56PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

So does child trafficking.

Back in the good old days Ireland's unwanted pregnancy problem was 'solved' by child trafficking.

Dressing gown · 23-05-2018 08:57PM

So numbers and floodgates

The numbers we have for abortions to Irish women at the moment are best guesses. We have the numbers from clinics in England and Wales for women that have given Irish addresses. We don’t have numbers for women from Ireland that give uk addresses or any other address.
For pills, the numbers are estimated from the numbers seized, and provided to us by some of the providers of the pills, but we can’t be sure we have accurate figures. It’s a best guess but a guess nonetheless.

If we look at the numbers of abortions in England and Wales over the past few years for women claiming Irish addresses, they have reduced by quite a bit. The explanation for this could be better contraception or fewer unwanted pregnancies, or (as I think more likely), an increase in pills bought over the Internet. As I’ve said previously, the horribly named ‘abortion on demand’ is already here.

If abortion comes in after the repeal of the eighth, the numbers will reflect what is actually going on. There isn’t going to be a run on the abortion bank so to speak. Why would there be when the pills are so cheap (and a helluva lot cheaper than the cost of raising a child). In parallel with abortion will undoubtedly come better sex education and access to contraception. It is logical that abortion rates will steadily reduce over time. We will be able to gather data on the situations faced by women experiencing a crisis pregnancy and use that data to try to help prevent some of those crisis pregnancies happening in the first place, or indeed any repeat crisis pregnancies. We could actually open dialogue with women in a crisis pregnancy so they can have honest non judgmental conversations about their pregnancies, some women might even decide to keep their babies as a result. We will be able to understand what is actually going on and try to help the women of Ireland, if we can.

If we vote to keep the eighth we stay in the dark on everything. The figure is guessed to be 1 in 20 pregnancies. It could be greater or smaller. It’s all just guesses and a missed opportunity to help people in possibly the most vulnerable state of their lives.

And that’s ignoring the risk to health of performing an abortion without medical supervision.

The trend for abortions over the past 10 years has been a steady shift to medical abortions and abortions happening earlier in the pregnancy which is better for all concerned. I can only see this trend continuing and abortion later into pregnancy becoming less acceptable as time goes on. It has already happened in the UK with the late term limit being reduced (I use this by way of analogy only for the trend I anticipate occurring).

I deliberately haven’t included the figures. We’ve all seen them already.

TL:DR if you can shop on amazon you can order an abortion online. Floodgates have been wide open a while now and are an irrelevant distraction to this debate.

DarkScar · 23-05-2018 08:58PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Ah the dehumanising trick. And you'd say that if someone you knew had a miscarriage?

Like the woman on the TV3 last night who had caniptions when she even had to squeeze out the word "foetus". She kept referring to it as a "pregnancy" as if there was no possibility at any stage another human was involved (be it equal or less important than the mother).

Hotblack Desiato · 23-05-2018 08:58PM

Grayditch wrote: »

I know a few people voting either way because the way the "other side are going on".

That's so strange to me. Spite voting.

Yeah it is.

Or maybe they're just talking shyte.

PhoenixParker · 23-05-2018 08:58PM

Akrasia wrote: »

That was a serious gotcha moment in last nights debate where the No side obstetrician was talking up poldpa and then reminded that he opposed that bill as it was proposed

Did anyone else notice that he talked all about how he’d treat the woman, how proactive he’d be, who he’d call, all the expert advice available to him, how decisive he’d be and

NOT ONCE

did he mention talking to the woman involved about what approach and treatment she might want to receive.

She didn’t even feature on his radar.

Pac1Man · 23-05-2018 08:59PM

FingerDeKat wrote: »

Don't answer a question with a question.

Can you answer my original question ?

I didn't directly answer your question originally because it sounded so juvenile I thought it must have been rhetorical in some way.

It's everyone's business. That is why we are being asked to vote as a collective group on a delicate subject and that is the beauty of living in a democratic country.

My point is the woman may make a choice based on initial circumstances but in the long run will not know how she would definately feel about the decision.

What is definite is the lack of a choice this potential person has.

PhoenixParker · 23-05-2018 09:01PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Ah the dehumanising trick. And you'd say that if someone you knew had a miscarriage?

Absolutely. Had one myself.

Everyone was sad, I was extremely sad.
No one treated it like I lost a baby, including myself.

DarkScar · 23-05-2018 09:01PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

Well I haven't heard anything that would change my view. All I heard initially from the No side were a combination of stories designed to tug at the heartstrings, abusive images and language intended to horrify.

I was waiting for the bit where you illustrated how this differed from the Yes side. Disappointed.

Wrongway1985 · 23-05-2018 09:01PM

theballz wrote: »

So because an English football team and have said I am voting no means I am exporting women to support Manchester? Extremely childish assumption.

I am voting no because it is my political right as an Irish citizen to do so. My reason behind doing so will not be discussed with someone who is clearly incapable of having an intellectual debate about the matter.

No that was not the point I was making you seem to have concocted your own assumption. An assumption I wouldn't agree with either fwiw.

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Mod note: Quit that rubbish now! I've deleted posts earlier and I will be banning if this crap continues. There is no reason to bring football teams into the discussion.

BTJ

Apologies, I'm under the impression it's probably for the best just to cease interaction with other user.

DarkScar · 23-05-2018 09:02PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Absolutely. Had one myself.

Everyone was sad, I was extremely sad.
No one treated it like I lost a baby, including myself.

But it wasn't anything human. Why were you sad?

Larbre34 · 23-05-2018 09:02PM

Trevor Hayes is back......

FingerDeKat · 23-05-2018 09:03PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Ah the dehumanising trick.

Not dehumanising anything.....it's a clump of cells.

As for telling a couple that a had miscarriage it was a fetus...I wouldn't even have that conversation because its none of my business.

fergus1001 · 23-05-2018 09:03PM

ah yes claiming a foetus of 12 weeks can yawn again

we really need fact checkers for these debates

Larbre34 · 23-05-2018 09:03PM

Colm O'Gorman v Stepford Steen...

The popcorn is on...

theballz · 23-05-2018 09:04PM

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

An assumption I wouldn't agree with either.

Move along now

murpho999 · 23-05-2018 09:05PM

Who are "Iona Institute" and why are they always given a platform like National TV for every referendum that they are against?

Martina1991 · 23-05-2018 09:06PM

Pac1Man wrote: »

My point is the woman may make a choice based on initial circumstances but in the long run will not know how she would definately feel about the decision.

What is definite is the lack of a choice this potential person has.

Yeah, better have the baby just in case. Save the receipt.

RacoonQueen · 23-05-2018 09:06PM

Maria Steen already making a mess of it. Can understand why RTÉ didn't want her on.

Larbre34 · 23-05-2018 09:06PM

Maria Steen equivocating in her opening statement on a compromise solution for the hard cases and Regina Doherty calling it out as a stunt.

DarkScar · 23-05-2018 09:06PM

FingerDeKat wrote: »

Not dehumanising anything.....it's a clump of cells.

So are you. It's OK to kill you then, right, by your own logic?

Water John · 23-05-2018 09:06PM

I was out of reach all day. So Steen turns up after all.

Atlantic Dawn · 23-05-2018 09:07PM

I can see this audience getting rowdy.

PhoenixParker · 23-05-2018 09:07PM

DarkScar wrote: »

But it wasn't anything human. Why were you sad?

Because I had hopes and dreams.
Because I wanted a baby.

Dogs aren’t human either but people are terribly upset when their beloved pets die.

A fetus has value, I don’t dispute that.
I dispute the idea that it’s value is equivalent to that of a living breathing child or the life/health/wellbeing of the living breathing woman carrying it.

gctest50 · 23-05-2018 09:07PM

murpho999 wrote: »

Who are "Iona Institute" and why are they always given a platform like National TV for every referendum that they are against?

Iona Institute ?

It's where they keep all the Iona-bots

Recharge them n stuff

Atlantic Dawn · 23-05-2018 09:07PM

I think the only real winners in this campaign are the badge makers.

The Talking Bread · 23-05-2018 09:08PM

Ronan Mullen really is a dose.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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