The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

kanadams123 · 22-05-2018 11:17AM

gmisk wrote: »

This referendum to a degree is about not continuing to export abortion I would say personally.

Deception from the Yes side? stones and glass houses spring to mind, have you seen some of the dodgy posters, bizarre ads and dodgy online dealing associated with the no side? lol

And dont get me started on where the money is coming from.....they were badly caught out with regards where there campaign pages were hosted, and clearly there are dodgy goings on with US groups.
https://twitter.com/LizCarolan/status/998866937567498240

I never said the NO side hadnt done anything wrong ..im not for this deception and i admit that the NO side have done things that are wrong and deciving...
I think you missed the point totally, instead of bombarding me with all things NO campaigners have done wrong, which i know about and admit are wrong, i find it beweldering that not one person on this thread has yet admitted to the YES side also using deception...maybe not to the same extent..but there is evidence of it. You said yourself you personally think its about "not exporting abortion"...so you admit that the poster saying "its not about abortion" is wrong?
Or are you too stuborn to admit this?

....... · 22-05-2018 11:18AM

This post has been deleted.

kanadams123 · 22-05-2018 11:21AM

spookwoman wrote: »

One of the biggest lies are here

Again...i never said the NO side hadnt done anything wrong...are you just so cynical you cant admit that the yes side had a misleading poster up? Dont change it around..at least i admitted that SOME no posters arent 100percent accurate. You just cant admit that about the YES side...because ye are all so honest and pure.

Cupcake_Crisis · 22-05-2018 11:22AM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

A 12 week old fetus? Well, having seen one, and seen it develop into a child, I would say it deserves some care/attention/respect.

I miscarried at just shy of 14 weeks. I saw what it was too, and it it wasn’t a fully formed baby (as was claimed on cblive) or anything resembling one. Did it deserve attention, care and respect? Yes, and it got that. Didn’t it deserve to potentially endanger my life if the miscarriage had of gone wrong. Absolutely not.

juanjo · 22-05-2018 11:22AM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Agreed. And that's a personal choice. If you think at 12 weeks it's nothing, then it's probably a very easy choice. But not everyone has that opinion, they see it as life which ends up being a human being. I don't personally see it as "murder" of what ever clams the extreme has on this; but I do see their viewpoint (to ignore or direct rage and anger towards them is so counter productive).

I've taken in consideration all women who have that issue, not just those close to me. It would affect me more if it was my own, but it's has weighted on my conciseness that there are girls/women truly affected by this; it's why I've spend a lot of time doing as much research as I could.

I don't fully agree with you on this. As I said earlier, contraception, having the pregnancy, going to the UK are choices. Maybe none are ideal, and more importantly maybe not all are available to some; which is what eventually led me to decide voting Yes.

Going to another country should never be considered a proper choice. I mean, you have to go to another country for you to be taken care of because your country wouldn't provide care good enough for you. If you were a woman, would you be ok with that?

SusieBlue · 22-05-2018 11:22AM

I feel its very important to note that in cases of late term FFA terminations, an induction is performed. It isn't an abortion.
The woman is induced, labour/cesarean section ensues, and the baby is born.

There is no suction/dismembering/scraping (and every other adjective used by the anti-choicers). These are wanted, loved babies, whose parents want to grieve for and bury them.

Not trying to nitpick, but I don't think referring to these scenarios as actual abortions is reflective of what actually happens.
They are early delivery's, if anything.

gctest50 · 22-05-2018 11:23AM

spookwoman wrote: »

Pro Life......
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/998876328630931456
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedUK/status/998858915931742208

https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/laurasilver/ireland-anti-abortion-campaigns-apps-privacy-nra

Ireland's two largest anti-abortion campaigns are facing questions over privacy after a BuzzFeed News analysis found that personal user data gathered by both of their apps can be shared with an international network of conservative and religious groups

If you are working somewhere with "company" mobile phones, you might want to send that on to IT/security

gmisk · 22-05-2018 11:24AM

gctest50 wrote: »

Lies , deception ?

long way to beat this one :

Ah that one!
I loved how john mc guirk just kept digging himself in deeper!
Here is proof!!!! - the fake qualifications with misspellings lol...including the department spelt wrong....also that "qualification" showed that he was working as "circulation burse" 2 years before he got his cert....

He isnt a criminal how dare you!!!!! - He was and admitted it (armed robbery)

He was a nurse who helped in 9 abortions a day!!!! - he wasnt, he was a porter for 8 month and would be nowhere near a theatre.

It goes on and on what a disaster he has been for the No campaign...and he is leading it!

j8wk2feszrnpao · 22-05-2018 11:27AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

I miscarried at just shy of 14 weeks. I saw what it was too, and it it wasn’t a fully formed baby (as was claimed on cblive) or anything resembling one. Did it deserve attention, care and respect? Yes, and it got that. Didn’t it deserve to potentially endanger my life if the miscarriage had of gone wrong. Absolutely not.

I can't argue against your opinion on such a matter.
Much as I couldn't argue against a women who would go through with the pregnancy even if it did endanger her life.
That's how I felt on the previous referendum; it's a women's choice.
This time, having gone though a lot of research and deep thinking on the matter, I decided to vote Yes.

The answer you quoted was asking me about if it deserved any care. I find it hard not to care about it.

spookwoman · 22-05-2018 11:28AM

kanadams123 wrote: »

Again...i never said the NO side hadnt done anything wrong...are you just so cynical you cant admit that the yes side had a misleading poster up? Dont change it around..at least i admitted that SOME no posters arent 100percent accurate. You just cant admit that about the YES side...because ye are all so honest and pure.

Your original post said

kanadams123 wrote: »

Just saw a YES poster saying "this referendum is not about abortion"...i know there is more too it than just abortion but it is wrong to say its not about abortion at all.

The bill is called “Bill to Regulate the Termination of Pregnancy”for goodness sake!! Abortion is defined as “the deliberate TERMINATION of a human pregnancy”.

Deception from the YES side, who would have thought? As yes side are so fair and truthful in everything..this is just scandelous...i await all the stubborn posters to say that i am wrong about this..but surley not.

The Referendum is to repeal the 8th so technically the poster is correct it's not about abortion. The 8th is
‘The states acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.’
after the referendum then they can legislate for whatever

Cupcake_Crisis · 22-05-2018 11:32AM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I can't argue against your opinion on such a matter.
Much as I couldn't argue against a women who would go through with the pregnancy even if it did endanger her life.
That's how I felt on the previous referendum; it's a women's choice.
This time, having gone though a lot of research and deep thinking on the matter, I decided to vote Yes.

The answer you quoted was asking me about if it deserved any care. I find it hard not to care about it.

As anyone would find it hard. And women aren’t suddenly going to turn into unfeeling monsters because they can access abortion on irish soil. It’ll be mostly the same women, just with access to be better care.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 22-05-2018 11:33AM

juanjo wrote: »

Going to another country should never be considered a proper choice. I mean, you have to go to another country for you to be taken care of because your country wouldn't provide care good enough for you. If you were a woman, would you be ok with that?

I never said it was a proper choice , just that it was a choice (among other choices that are there for some).
Would I be ok with that if I was a women? Probably not (one of the factors for me voting Yes).

Others do see it as ending the life of the unborn here; something they don't want in this country; perhaps seeing it as a service this country provides to the unborn. You may disagree, and I'm voting against them, but I can see their point of view.

Mr. CooL ICE · 22-05-2018 11:33AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Cue RobertKK reappearing and telling us that the professor was either wrong ,misquoted or quoted out of context.

Mod: Calling other posters out like this = acting the dick. Don't act the dick.

Dressing gown · 22-05-2018 11:37AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

As anyone would find it hard. And women aren’t suddenly going to turn into unfeeling monsters because they can access abortion on irish soil. It’ll be mostly the same women, just with access to be better care.

A really decent and respectful debate. It’s really hard not to get emotional and upset in this. Let’s keep it going-eye opening thoughts from both sides so thanks. Don’t mean to come across like a knob I hope it comes across as genuine.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 22-05-2018 11:37AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

As anyone would find it hard. And women aren’t suddenly going to turn into unfeeling monsters because they can access abortion on irish soil. It’ll be mostly the same women, just with access to be better care.

I agree. I don't see this as some outbreak that those on the extreme of the No side would paint. There may be some who see it as an easy opt-out solution (the vast minority), but I do hate the No sides opinion that somehow Irish women have no self control and view this as an easy solution.

I can't imagine it's an easy thing to go through. Just from my own experience (as I said earlier), a man is a dad the day the baby is born, a women is a mom ~9 months earlier. It's a unique thing, and some of those on the no side don't seem to trust Irish women to have control over this.

kanadams123 · 22-05-2018 11:42AM

spookwoman wrote: »

Your original post said

The Referendum is to repeal the 8th so technically the poster is correct it's not about abortion. The 8th is
‘The states acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.’
after the referendum then they can legislate for whatever

The vote is to replace your above qoute of the constititution with the following words.

Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy.

Wether they make abortion legal or not...its still about abortion...as the definition of abortion is defined as the termination of a human pregnancy.
You cant surely be saying the new article will contain the definition of abortion and allow legislation to be passed on it....yet..its not about abortion?

Zubeneschamali · 22-05-2018 11:43AM

I have seen several folks say "If we had abortion in the 80s I wouldn't be here!"

I was in college in the 80s. We did have abortion, same as we do now, except it was the ferry instead of Ryanair.

We have had abortion on demand since the 1967 act in the UK, except for a minority of women who get caught in the system - in care, in prison, in hospital already, bad visa, underage with no support, in an abusive relationship.

You know, the poor, the sick, foreigners, children. And screw those guys, right?

kanadams123 · 22-05-2018 11:44AM

As GMISK has totally ignored my last reply to you...i take it that you agree that the poster was wrong..you just cant bring yourself to admit that?
Correct me if im wrong....

Nettle Soup · 22-05-2018 11:49AM

I think a No vote will confirm that Irish women are 2nd class citizens in the eyes of the state and Rome.

gmisk · 22-05-2018 11:50AM

kanadams123 wrote: »

As GMISK has totally ignored my last reply to you...i take it that you agree that the poster was wrong..you just cant bring yourself to admit that?
Correct me if im wrong....

My apologies, most of your posts are pretty much like white noise to me at this stage.
Other more clued in people than me have already answered you in the meantime.

e.g. spookwoman
The Referendum is to repeal the 8th so technically the poster is correct it's not about abortion

ArmaniJeanss · 22-05-2018 11:56AM

kanadams123 wrote: »

As GMISK has totally ignored my last reply to you...i take it that you agree that the poster was wrong..you just cant bring yourself to admit that?
Correct me if im wrong....

What did the poster actually say? In full, or even approximately.
Presumably there was another few words on it rather than just the "this referendum is not about abortion...." you quoted. It's very hard to comment without this information, and I don't recall seeing this poster despite having seen most of them at this stage (I've even seen the rare Spider Babys Vote Yaaaaasss one).

minikin · 22-05-2018 11:56AM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

...a man is a dad the day the baby is born, a women is a mom ~9 months earlier.

Speaking from my own experience a man is a dad from the moment he is told about the pregnancy.

LuckyLloyd · 22-05-2018 11:57AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

(I've even seen the rare Spider Babys Vote Yaaaaasss one).

Which is utterly magnificent!!

DOS · 22-05-2018 11:58AM

Excellent article, Eilis O'Hanlon Windows on the 'experts' arrogance.

https://amp.independent.ie/opinion/comment/abortion-is-an-issue-for-all-of-us-not-just-the-doctors-36926406.html

kanadams123 · 22-05-2018 12:02PM

gmisk wrote: »

My apologies, most of your posts are pretty much like white noise to me at this stage.
Other more clued in people than me have already answered you in the meantime.

e.g. spookwoman
The Referendum is to repeal the 8th so technically

You have slightly contradicted yourself here.

Your first post in response to my post was
"I think its about not exporting abortion, personally"
Yet you agree
"that the poster is correct it's not about abortion"

The vote is to replace the current wording of the constititution with the following words.

Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy.

Wether they make abortion legal or not...its still about abortion...as the definition of abortion is defined as the termination of a human pregnancy.
You cant surely be saying the new article will contain the definition of abortion and allow legislation to be passed on it....yet..its not about abortion?

I think it appears as "white noise" because you and spookwoman just cant bear the fact that there is a desiving yes poster.
Wow..what a shock..not all yes voters are pure and honest. How scandelous is that? Who would have seen it coming. Again, dont be so cynical.

To be honest i give up at this stage...we will just conclude that stubborness is the cause of you ignoring my posts .not "white noise"

gmisk · 22-05-2018 12:03PM

http://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-uk-ireland-abortion-law-4027157-May2018/
Factcheck on the claim that " Ireland's proposed abortion legislation more extreme than British law" made by Councillor Keith Redmond in a video for love both.

I will give you a clue....its FALSE

retro:electro · 22-05-2018 12:04PM

kanadams123 wrote: »

Just saw a YES poster saying "this referendum is not about abortion"...i know there is more too it than just abortion but it is wrong to say its not about abortion at all.

This Referendum is about the removal of a piece of archaic legislation that has no business being here in 2018. Legislation pertaining to the regulation of abortion comes when and if the 8th is removed.
It is not a vote relating to killing babies vs saving babies. It’s about the complete overhaul of a primiative and barbaric piece of writing that helps no one.
The 8th is responsible for the death of women. Women who were fit and healthy at the start of their pregnancies.
The 8th is responsible for increased burden on families who have to leave the country to end their pregnancies for a spectrum of reasons; all worthy of the respect of this country.
The 8th only prioritises women’s lives over a fetus when we are at deaths door.
The 8th was brought in to prevent abortion and it failed.
The 8th has blood on its hands and deserves to be ran out of town.

ohnonotgmail · 22-05-2018 12:05PM

DOS wrote: »

Excellent article, Eilis O'Hanlon Windows on the 'experts' arrogance.

https://amp.independent.ie/opinion/comment/abortion-is-an-issue-for-all-of-us-not-just-the-doctors-36926406.html

Odd that they didnt mention that the No side have done the exact same. Even including a doctor on one of their posters with a stethoscope around their neck. Of course the No side have a lot less doctors that agree with them on how the 8th affects women's healthcare.

OldNotWIse · 22-05-2018 12:05PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I feel its very important to note that in cases of late term FFA terminations, an induction is performed. It isn't an abortion.
The woman is induced, labour/cesarean section ensues, and the baby is born.

There is no suction/dismembering/scraping (and every other adjective used by the anti-choicers). These are wanted, loved babies, whose parents want to grieve for and bury them.

Not trying to nitpick, but I don't think referring to these scenarios as actual abortions is reflective of what actually happens.
They are early delivery's, if anything.

How do they carry out standard abortions that aren't early stage?

kanadams123 · 22-05-2018 12:05PM

retro:electro wrote: »

This Referendum is about the removal of a piece of archaic legislation that has no business being here in 2018. Legislation pertaining to the regulation of abortion comes when and if the 8th is removed.
It is not a vote relating to killing babies vs saving babies. It’s about the complete overhaul of a primiative and barbaric piece of writing that helps no one.
The 8th is responsible for the death of women.
The 8th is responsible for increased burden on families who have to leave the country to end their pregnancies for a spectrum of reasons; all worthy of the respect of this country.
The 8th only prioritises women’s lives over a fetus when we are at deaths door.
The 8th was brought in to prevent abortion and it failed.
The 8th has blood on its hands and deserves to be ran out of town.

Ill say this again because you oviously havnt read it

The vote is to replace the current wording of the constititution with the following words.

Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy.

Wether they make abortion legal or not...its still about abortion...as the definition of abortion is defined as the termination of a human pregnancy.
You cant surely be saying the new article will contain the definition of abortion and allow legislation to be passed on it....yet..its not about abortion?

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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