The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

gmisk

rgace wrote: »

Just like on here it's all "the yes side won".

In fact, if you are already on one side or the other, I'd imagine it is literally impossible to think the opposite has "won" a debate.

Not true I thought the No side "won" the debate on Claire Byrne.
Thankfully I talked to a few people after it and most people even undecided people were pretty horrified by the constant interrupting whopping, cheering and booing like they were at a panto.

gmisk

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

I’m heading into Dublin CC for the first time since the campaigns kicked into gear today. Will be interesting to see if it’s as bad as people say it is.

What are people saying?
There a posters blooming everywhere (id say prob 2/1 for No), tbh if you are tall and standing still for 5 minutes id worry a poster might be tied to your face!

bootpaws

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

I’m heading into Dublin CC for the first time since the campaigns kicked into gear today. Will be interesting to see if it’s as bad as people say it is.

In a couple of days ago, they had a truck going up and down O'Connell st with some sh!te about babies body parts being sold written on the side, along with a big "vote no" banner and about twenty odd eejits harassing you if you weren't interested in taking a leaflet. They've also stuck a load of "abortion causes breast cancer and that's a fact" posters around the lampposts and memo boards.

They are an embarrassment and a disgrace.

nullzero

erica74 wrote: »

What argument?

Exactly.

spookwoman

pone2012 wrote: »

#1 I never said i didnt like sex...Inventing more nonsense now are we?

#2 no we havent because all ive heard is incessant babbling about me me me and "my pleasure" and "my desires". That is not proving it is not a realistic solution

All that proves is a vast majority of people think more of sexual intercourse than the life of an unborn in an everyday context ( despite the fact i was very context specific)

So we went from debating about the worth of mothers life vs the unborns life vs now to the act of coitus vs the unborns life

And its evident from the vast majority of responses I seen, that a lot of people would terminate an unborn rather than practice A LITTLE ABSTINENCE. And in the grand picture that says it all really

And dont bother running around saying I said nobody should every have sex ever, or everyone should never have sex until menopause. Either use my words in exactly the manner they were presented, or continue making yourself both look extremely foolish





Its nothing to do with theism, so stop inserting religion like every other idiotic post that did in the past. Its deflecting from the point and trying to draw attention away from the actual matter at hand. It is irrelevant and nonsensical

Sexual intercourse exists so that we may procreate. If the people stop having sexual intercourse, then the people stop existing eventually

Now if people stop having sexual intercourse, there are a plethora of other ways they can satisfy their desires

Do you see the difference between the two? Or do I need to illustrate further



Im going to say the same thing to you I said to the above

#1 read my posts...you are continually inventing scenarios i never mentioned...You have no idea if im trying for a child or not...so why ask about abstinence...note the context i spoke in....and for the love of all that's good READ THE POST!

#2 You are inserting religion on absolutely zero basis...like every other juvenile poster in this thread, when in fact its nothing to do with my opinion and ive stated is SEVERAL TIMES. Your inability to accept that is what i dont like...its nothing to do with hearing the truth. Because for me to hear the truth, means you would have to actually be speaking it, which you clearly are not

#3 No if someone got raped we would be having a different discussion....if someone was medically diagnosed with a FFA or an ectopic pregnancy we would be having a different discussion...They are crises

Falling pregnant because you couldnt take the proper steps necessary to ENSURE you dont flal pregnant isnt a crises, its a situation that it totally and easily avoidable. And whether you like that or not is absolutley irrelevant because ive actually proven how it is totally aviodable and given real practical examples...and all you and the vast majority of repliers have done is insinuate how difficult and unfair it might be

Yet nobody stops to think about how unfair it is for the unborn who never asked to be created in the first place, had no say in that...and equally did not ask to have that life taken before it was even given the full chance to flourish

Im sorry, but all you, and everyone else has done is proved the selfishness, narcissism and egocentricity are the rule of the roost in modern Ireland...and im still waiting for someone to come forward and actually debate that point...because anyone that says abortion is totally acceptable on financial grounds is only further proving the aforementioned

All ive heard is body autonomy and my body etc. Yes it is your body and your choice....you have a choice who you engage in sexual activity with and what kind...and if you cannot engage in activity without making what you consider a mistake...then perhaps its that choice you need to question....not what to do after youve already made the mistake...No third party should suffer because of your inability to make the choice that causes the least amount of problems

Does that make my position clearer?

Captain Flaps

New poster idea for LoveBoats!

DON'T GET PREGNANT

TRY FINGERING

erica74

nullzero wrote: »

Exactly.

Oooh what a burn!
:pac:

marvin80

bootpaws wrote: »

In a couple of days ago, they had a truck going up and down O'Connell st with some sh!te about babies body parts being sold written on the side, along with a big "vote no" banner and about twenty odd eejits harassing you if you weren't interested in taking a leaflet. They've also stuck a load of "abortion causes breast cancer and that's a fact" posters around the lampposts and memo boards.

They are an embarrassment and a disgrace.

If they throw enough sh*t some of it's bound to stick.
Brexit and Trumps tactics were along similar lines.

Leroy42

Originally Posted by pone2012 View Post

#3 No if someone got raped we would be having a different discussion....if someone was medically diagnosed with a FFA or an ectopic pregnancy we would be having a different discussion...They are crises

What is your solution to this crises? Having the 8th remain means that no abortion is possible. And how do we work out if it is a rape? Look at the recent NI trial and the many others. Some take years, certainly much longer than 12 weeks.

Do we take the word of the woman that she was raped? Does she have to have a certain level of bruises etc to back-up the claim?

Is she has a history of having sex will that count against her?

And therein lies the problem. The 8th basically rules out abortion unless the woman is close to death. Removing the 8th doesn't mean that we have a free-for-all, it simply means we have the ability to legislate for these cases.

Cupcake_Crisis

gmisk wrote: »

Not true I thought the No side "won" the debate on Claire Byrne.
Thankfully I talked to a few people after it and most people even undecided people were pretty horrified by the constant interrupting whopping, cheering and booing like they were at a panto.

Tbf, a lot of the no side I engaged with had no time for the CB debate either. The second they implied that no one was hurt by the Ms P case they lost all credibility.

gmisk wrote: »

What are people saying?
There a posters blooming everywhere (id say prob 2/1 for No), tbh if you are tall and standing still for 5 minutes id worry a poster might be tied to your face!

Just that a lot of the campaigners are on the aggressive side and are throwing abuse if you refuse their leaflets. I’ve read some scary stuff on Twitter, like a young woman being spat on.

I’m a short arse so I should be ok in that regard. I hope.

Cupcake_Crisis

Captain Flaps wrote: »

New poster idea for LoveBoats!

DON'T GET PREGNANT

TRY FINGERING

Ah, the forgotten art.

gmisk

marvin80 wrote: »

If they throw enough sh*t some of it's bound to stick.
Brexit and Trumps tactics were along similar lines.

I am honestly not sure they are working here (though John Mc Guirk is doing his best!), I think tactics like that or what ICBR are doing are just more likely to drive undecided people to vote Yes.
I think people here are a little more discerning with regards doing their own research well I hope so.

Overheal

Captain Flaps wrote: »

New poster idea for LoveBoats!

DON'T GET PREGNANT

TRY FINGERING

I laughed. Imagining an Uncle Sam meme there.

Edit: the internet made that too easy. I apologize in advance

via Imgflip Meme Generator

defrule

Not eligible to vote myself but I would hope people don’t think it’s “bagged” for yes and don’t turn out to vote.

Cupcake_Crisis

Overheal wrote: »

I laughed. Imagining an Uncle Sam meme there.

Ah no. You want at least 2 fingers.

Igotadose

defrule wrote: »

Not eligible to vote myself but I would hope people don’t think it’s “bagged” for yes and don’t turn out to vote.

Exact same circumstance here. Can't take the pedal from the metal on leafletting and campaigning at all. Just replaced my stolen poster&pole with a new one yesterday, this time the b*stards will have to wade across a deep ditch through some nasty blackberries should they want to steal this one.

Keep it up everyone. No's got infinite money from the US and zero scruples.

Captain Flaps

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Ah no. You want at least 2 fingers.

It might need to be a display ad, I don't think the wiggling pinky will come across properly on a static poster.

gmisk

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Tbf, a lot of the no side I engaged with had no time for the CB debate either. The second they implied that no one was hurt by the Ms P case they lost all credibility.



Just that a lot of the campaigners are on the aggressive side and are throwing abuse if you refuse their leaflets. I’ve read some scary stuff on Twitter, like a young woman being spat on.

I’m a short arse so I should be ok in that regard. I hope.

I havent really encountered anyone aggressive but I tend to walk around in wee world of my own in town with earphones on.


I did get a visit from a no campaigner, at the exact same time I was letting the dog out the front, that man got the fright of his life and gave out a bit of scream! (he is a french bulldog so not exactly they hound from hell)

I just said I am voting yes but thanks for calling, i did apologise!

looksee

Originally Posted by pone2012
And its evident from the vast majority of responses I seen, that a lot of people would terminate an unborn rather than practice A LITTLE ABSTINENCE. And in the grand picture that says it all really

How do you practise 'a little abstinence'? Is it 100% reliable?

I do in fact have a tiny bit of sympathy for your argument, but I'm afraid, given human frailty and 'luck', that it isn't a solution. Total abstinence would of course remove the possibility of pregnancy, though it would not remove the crisis situations that occur from the events discussed - rape, ffa, etc. If you are going to omit these events from the discussion then how do you (or any one else) decide where the dividing line is?

Who gets to decide what was rape, what was non-consensual sex and what was next day regret?

How do you deal with a situation that is not ffa but will result in a child that, given 24 hour round the clock nursing, will survive but with little quality of life - in a circumstance where there is already one child with the same illness in the family. In a hospital there would be several staff to do the 24 hour nursing, at home it is down to two parents who are also trying to earn a living, care for other children and live their lives. This is not ffa, but who makes the call that the parents are going to have to try and cope?

The whole area is far too complex to be dealt with by public opinion. There is so much talk of 'hard cases' - who decides what is a 'hard case'? Provision needs to be there so that women - couples - medical people can decide on a case by case situation what is the appropriate solution to any situation.

Cupcake_Crisis

gmisk wrote: »

I havent really encountered anyone aggressive but I tend to walk around in wee world of my own in town with earphones on.


I did get a visit from a no campaigner, at the exact same time I was letting the dog out the front, that man got the fright of his life and gave out a bit of scream! (he is a french bulldog so not exactly they hound from hell)

I just said I am voting yes but thanks for calling, i did apologise!

The no campaigner I had to the door was entirely pleasant too it has to be said. Told him this was a yes house, he offered me a leaflet anyway, I declined and he told me to have a good night. They’re not all horrible but the crazy ones scream the loudest

nullzero

erica74 wrote: »

Oooh what a burn!
:pac:

I'm not the one peddling empty rhetoric.

It wasnt me123

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

Two of them are from my constituency even Coffin chaser Mattie Mcgrath & Crook Lowry (Who is usually actually absent for a vote on something). I wouldn't dream of voting for either of them, the fact they can get elected has me very fearful of the counties vote.

We're neighbours and have the same opinion on them both though in fairness to Mattie McGrath, he is a good local TD.

That said they have this cohort (you gotta love that word) of 50 + somethings who think that every fixed pot hole and burst water main (in my case) is down to them, whether it is or it isnt. And they love the auld photo. They are camera / media whores, they are everywhere in local newspapers/radio.

But luckily there are a lot who think like you and me and though it might be close in Tipperary, I think yes will still win.

Leroy42

The abstinence is a non starter. 1st off, we know that whatever limits you try to put up people will find a way. Sex is human nature, we are hardwired for it. If even the churches with their links direct to God etc cannot abstine then what hope has the every-person?

But as usual the No side want to argue about a perfect ideal rather than deal with the reality that we face. We know that many people engage in sex, we know that contraception is not 100% failsafe. We know human nature means that people make mistakes. The No side seem to want to ignore all these facts and deem the solution to instigate a fundamental change in human behaviour that even the most religious or controlling organisations have been unable to achieve.

The debate is what what we do to deal with the inevitable. It may not be what we want to have to deal with, but we know, from throughout history, that it will continue to happen.

There has been lots of hand-ringing and cries of 'think of the children' but little in the way of practical solutions. What do we do with the current 3k+ women a year that (we know of) go to the UK. What about those that source the pills off the internet. Will this stop with a no vote? Will rapes stop? Will women stop suffering from illness during pregnancy, or mental health issues?

Let say we force the woman to carry out the pregnancy, then what? Will she be forced to look after it? If they give it up for adoption will the child have rights to search for the mother later on in life? And what happens if she claims it was rape yet in a subsequent trial the man is found not guilty? Does the woman get a murder charge?

elvis83

Leroy42 wrote: »

The abstinence is a non starter. 1st off, we know that whatever limits you try to put up people will find a way. Sex is human nature, we are hardwired for it. If even the churches with their links direct to God etc cannot abstine then what hope has the every-person?

But as usual the No side want to argue about a perfect ideal rather than deal with the reality that we face. We know that many people engage in sex, we know that contraception is not 100% failsafe. We know human nature means that people make mistakes. The No side seem to want to ignore all these facts and deem the solution to instigate a fundamental change in human behaviour that even the most religious or controlling organisations have been unable to achieve.

The debate is what what we do to deal with the inevitable. It may not be what we want to have to deal with, but we know, from throughout history, that it will continue to happen.

There has been lots of hand-ringing and cries of 'think of the children' but little in the way of practical solutions. What do we do with the current 3k+ women a year that (we know of) go to the UK. What about those that source the pills off the internet. Will this stop with a no vote? Will rapes stop? Will women stop suffering from illness during pregnancy, or mental health issues?

Let say we force the woman to carry out the pregnancy, then what? Will she be forced to look after it? If they give it up for adoption will the child have rights to search for the mother later on in life? And what happens if she claims it was rape yet in a subsequent trial the man is found not guilty? Does the woman get a murder charge?

You captured my exact thoughts better than I ever could. I've been on the fence, swung from yes to no to yes... But a very firm yes now at this stage.

Just need to convince the wife now...

TheFever

My area seems to be a huge YES enclave. Very rural too .

joe40

Is everyone meeting with canvassers, at home or on the streets.
I haven't had a single caller to my house, or met anyone on a street giving out leaflets. Apart from posters nothing else promoting either side.
Is this unusual?

circadian

Bumped into my neighbour this morning. A young mother who is undecided but leaning for a Yes.

One thing she said to me that stood out was the old chestnut "Hard cases make bad laws". I pointed out that the 8th creates more hard cases than if it didn't exists at all.

Her undecidedness was based purely on emotion but she was trying to approach the concept pragmatically and ultimately agreed that while abortion may not be something she wants to avail of, it may be something she needs to avail of in future and that it is certainly not anyone's place to dictate what others do in this instance.

She seemed a bit more at ease after talking it out.

Hopefully that's a household of 4 adults going for yes.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Digs

joe40 wrote: »

Is everyone meeting with canvassers, at home or on the streets.
I haven't had a single caller to my house, or met anyone on a street giving out leaflets. Apart from posters nothing else promoting either side.
Is this unusual?

D16, older established estate and not one called from either side too.

Leroy42

elvis83 wrote: »

You captured my exact thoughts better than I ever could. I've been on the fence, swung from yes to no to yes... But a very firm yes now at this stage.

Just need to convince the wife now...

What convinced me, and I started off a leaning towards No, was that voting No achieves nothing. It simply maintains the current crazy situation.

Will it protect any girls from having an abortion. Clearly not, as 3k+ do so every year. So what does it achieve? The No claim it reduces the numbers. But really? In an era of open information, abundant travel opportunities, is that really true?

When has prohibition ever worked? It certainly has not worked in this case.

So I (if I was you!) would be asking your wife what she wants to get out of voting no. Is she happy with the current situation whereby women are denied health services until the very last, in some cases after protracted legal cases. Is she happy that women are forced to travel to a foreign country.

And what happens in the UK decide in the future to stop allowing this. That only UK residents can avail of the service? Will these women need to travel further?

I totally get why people want to vote no, I certainly do not relish voting yes and I get no joy out of any of this. But voting no achieves nothing, in fact it is worse than that. It is accepting the situation as it is now. The deaths of some women. The mental anguish. The pain, the hurt. The feeling of being cast adrift by the country that says they are a citizen.

We know all of this, we have seen it in practical terms the last 35 years. To vote no means that you are happy with that situation.