The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

j8wk2feszrnpao

erica74 wrote: »

It does though.

It doesn't though.
Role reversal, you don't care about unborn children?

spookwoman

Pro Life......
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/998876328630931456
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedUK/status/998858915931742208

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Leroy42

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It doesn't though.
Role reversal, you don't care about unborn children?

It's not about caring for one or the other, it is not such a binary decision.

The No side like to paint it as such, I mean who is going to be against babies? but it neglects the more nuanced part of the debate.

1st off, one needs to consider when a life is a life. This is a very deep issue and not something that is either or. It all depends on your fundamental beliefs in a way. Is life created at point of conception, at point of sentience, at birth? We certainly regard life as starting from birth (age etc) yet most people will agree that the baby in the womb is a person at some point in the pregnancy.

However, trying to get a consensus on exactly, or even roughly, when that is, is difficult. Some will say that it is only when the brain is formed (I am not a doctor so excuse the rough detail), others when we know pain receptors are in place.

2nd, one needs to understand that without the woman the foetus will die. It is wholly dependent on the mother for its very existence. Not in a "if she doesn't feed it" kind of way, but from blood and oxygen and cells. It is this symbiotic relationship that causes the very difficult discussions that we have.

Has the mother, a fully formed sentient being, more or less right to life than the entirely dependent foetus. If we could come up with a way to take out the foetus from the mother and for it to continue to live would we? And who would take over?

But what the repealing the 8th doesn't do, just like the divorce and marriage equality refs, is to force anyone who doesn't want an abortion to have one. For those opposed to abortion, repealing the 8th will have zero impact on their lives directly.

What it does do is allow us to have a conversation about how we want to deal with the reality of the situation that we have faced, and will continue to face. Rather than sticking our fingers in our ears and pretending it doesn't happen, we face it as a grown up civilised society and try to come to the best position possible under very difficult circumstances.

PhoenixParker

I care about cows, I still eat them.

I care about people who need donated organs, but I wouldn't be in favour of the government forcing organ donation against someone's will.

I care about unborn fetuses, but not to the point where I'll force a woman to go through a pregnancy and become a mother against her will.

j8wk2feszrnpao

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A 12 week old fetus? Well, having seen one, and seen it develop into a child, I would say it deserves some care/attention/respect.

ohnonotgmail

munstermagic11 wrote: »

A 12 week old fetus? Well, having seen one, and seen it develop into a child, I would say it deserves some care/attention/respect.

To the same level as the pregnant woman carrying it?

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antiskeptic

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It isn't intended to but there is nothing stopping the government passing additional legislation on related items.

There is nothing stopping the government introducing legislation for free contraceptives, education, supports, counselling, housing. At least, the 8th doesn't prevent that.

YES or NO makes no difference to that.

Dressing gown

I think a massive problem with this referendum is that people think the so called difficult cases (I actually think each and every case is difficult for the woman concerned) can be dealt with separately to this referendum.

It is incredibly wrong for the no side to push this as an argument.

Any legislation trying to deal with this separately would be in conflict with the constitution and in danger of being deemed unconstitutional.

The only was for cases of rape, incest and FFA to be dealt with is by first repealing the 8th (after which nothing happens immediately) and then dealing with it in new legislation. Any other attempt will just result in protracted legal cases regarding any legislation being unconstitutional and in the meantime families of those cases will continue to suffer.

So if you think there should be exceptions for rape, incest and FFA the only way to cater for them is by repealing the 8th amendment.

Cantona's Collars

For anyone that didn't catch The Last Word yesterday, it's worth a listen back as Corah Sherlock scored own goal after own goal and argued against facts with half truths and nonsense while managing to actually avoid answering a single question put to her.
If it went down to that debate alone,the No side would lose spectacularly. Fear mongering and falsehoods in the face of solid truths and facts. Her (lack) of answers when pressed on her views of a 12 year old pregnant rape victim spoke volumes.

LuckyLloyd

Some excellent posting from Leroy42 the past couple of days, hats off sir.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Leroy42 wrote: »

It's not about caring for one or the other, it is not such a binary decision.

I agree. It's why I've been doing as much research on the issue as I could; and with reservations, taking into account as much as I could, I decided not to remain on the fence and vote Yes.
If someone is of the belief that at 12 weeks that it's not life, I can't argue against their belief. I would differ having seen one and seen it develop; I care. But I also have to take into the account the women/girl involved.

ohnonotgmail

antiskeptic wrote: »

There is nothing stopping the government introducing legislation for free contraceptives, education, supports, counselling, housing. At least, the 8th doesn't prevent that.

YES or NO makes no difference to that.

apart from most on the No side being strongly opposed to them.

ittakestwo

....... wrote: »

What IS there to care about?

A 12 week fetus has none of the faculties that an adult woman has. No consciousness, no sentience.

Its a potential person. The woman carrying it is an actual person.

What about it means it should be deserving of any care?

This is the corner stone of the argument for most and causing the speration of Yes and No. Do you see it as a 12 week old fetus or a 12 week old life?

cherryghost

Are all the Yes posters in Bray taken down? Was in town on Sunday afternoon and I see no yes posters, just no posters and bare ties against poles.

Leroy42

munstermagic11 wrote: »

A 12 week old fetus? Well, having seen one, and seen it develop into a child, I would say it deserves some care/attention/respect.

And nobody is claiming otherwise. What is up for debate is whether the care/attention/respect should override the care etc of the mother.

If you were faced with a choice of your pregnant wife being ill during a pregnancy, such that her life may well be in danger if things continue, would you agree to take the risk of both the foetus and mother dying and leaving you and your other children without a mother?

What would you do? Whichever you decide it is a terrible choice, heartbreaking, life changing and something that you will never forget. But even doing nothing is a choice.

Those that argue to maintain the 8th are saying that neither you nor the mother should have a choice. You simply accept whatever happens.

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Timberrrrrrrr

munstermagic11 wrote: »

A 12 week old fetus? Well, having seen one, and seen it develop into a child, I would say it deserves some care/attention/respect.

What about one that will have zero chance of survival outside of the womb once born?

kanadams123

Just saw a YES poster saying "this referendum is not about abortion"...i know there is more too it than just abortion but it is wrong to say its not about abortion at all.

The bill is called “Bill to Regulate the Termination of Pregnancy”for goodness sake!! Abortion is defined as “the deliberate TERMINATION of a human pregnancy”.

Deception from the YES side, who would have thought? As yes side are so fair and truthful in everything..this is just scandelous...i await all the stubborn posters to say that i am wrong about this..but surley not.

seamus

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

apart from most on the No side being strongly opposed to them.

And in most cases, actively campaigning against them.

Dressing gown

I understand the view that the embryo/foetus is deemed as a baby from conception. That is fine. That said, until it is born or has reached viability it is wholly dependent on the mother for survival. For that reason i believe it is the mother of that foetus/embryo/baby!that should decide whether or not it has an equal or greater or lesser right to life than she.

It is a very personal decision and it is one that the mother and only the mother should come to. That is (another reason) why I do not think the 8th amendment should continue to be a part of our constitution.

We do not force parents to donate organs to their children if they are in need of them. We should not force a woman to give up her entire body to that of her foetus/baby for the time she has to carry it.

ohnonotgmail

kanadams123 wrote: »

Just saw a YES poster saying "this referendum is not about abortion"...i know there is more too it than just abortion but it is wrong to say its not about abortion at all.

The bill is called “Bill to Regulate the Termination of Pregnancy”for goodness sake!! Abortion is defined as “the deliberate TERMINATION of a human pregnancy”.

Deception from the YES side, who would have thought? As yes side are so fair and truthful in everything..this is just scandelous...i await all the stubborn posters to say that i am wrong about this..but surley not.

the referendum asks the people if they want to remove a section from the constitution and replace it with a section that says that the government is allowed to legislate. It doesnt say the government MUST legislate, nor does it say what the legislation must contain. The legislation is a consequence of repealing the 8th but we are not voting on the legislation.

gmisk

kanadams123 wrote: »

Just saw a YES poster saying "this referendum is not about abortion"...i know there is more too it than just abortion but it is wrong to say its not about abortion at all.

The bill is called “Bill to Regulate the Termination of Pregnancy”for goodness sake!! Abortion is defined as “the deliberate TERMINATION of a human pregnancy”.

Deception from the YES side, who would have thought? As yes side are so fair and truthful in everything..this is just scandelous...i await all the stubborn posters to say that i am wrong about this..but surley not.

This referendum to a degree is about not continuing to export abortion I would say personally.


Deception from the Yes side? stones and glass houses spring to mind, have you seen some of the dodgy posters, bizarre ads and dodgy online dealing associated with the no side? lol

And dont get me started on where the money is coming from.....they were badly caught out with regards where there campaign pages were hosted, and clearly there are dodgy goings on with US groups.
https://twitter.com/LizCarolan/status/998866937567498240

j8wk2feszrnpao

Leroy42 wrote: »

What is up for debate is whether the care/attention/respect should override the care etc of the mother.

Agreed. And that's a personal choice. If you think at 12 weeks it's nothing, then it's probably a very easy choice. But not everyone has that opinion, they see it as life which ends up being a human being. I don't personally see it as "murder" of what ever clams the extreme has on this; but I do see their viewpoint (to ignore or direct rage and anger towards them is so counter productive).

Leroy42 wrote: »

If you were faced with a choice of your pregnant wife being ill during a pregnancy, such that her life may well be in danger if things continue, would you agree to take the risk of both the foetus and mother dying and leaving you and your other children without a mother?

I've taken in consideration all women who have that issue, not just those close to me. It would affect me more if it was my own, but it's has weighted on my conciseness that there are girls/women truly affected by this; it's why I've spend a lot of time doing as much research as I could.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Those that argue to maintain the 8th are saying that neither you nor the mother should have a choice. You simply accept whatever happens.

I don't fully agree with you on this. As I said earlier, contraception, having the pregnancy, going to the UK are choices. Maybe none are ideal, and more importantly maybe not all are available to some; which is what eventually led me to decide voting Yes.

Zubeneschamali

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Cora Sherlock scored own goal after own goal and argued against facts with half truths and nonsense while managing to actually avoid answering a single question put to her.

Isn't she due on the RTE debate tonight?

Mu ha ha ha!

gctest50

kanadams123 wrote: »

Just saw a YES poster saying "this referendum is not about abortion"...i know there is more too it than just abortion but it is wrong to say its not about abortion at all.

The bill is called “Bill to Regulate the Termination of Pregnancy”for goodness sake!! Abortion is defined as “the deliberate TERMINATION of a human pregnancy”.

Deception from the YES side, who would have thought? As yes side are so fair and truthful in everything..this is just scandelous...i await all the stubborn posters to say that i am wrong about this..but surley not.

Lies , deception ?

long way to beat this one :

A Pattern of lies

spookwoman

kanadams123 wrote: »

Just saw a YES poster saying "this referendum is not about abortion"...i know there is more too it than just abortion but it is wrong to say its not about abortion at all.

The bill is called “Bill to Regulate the Termination of Pregnancy”for goodness sake!! Abortion is defined as “the deliberate TERMINATION of a human pregnancy”.

Deception from the YES side, who would have thought? As yes side are so fair and truthful in everything..this is just scandelous...i await all the stubborn posters to say that i am wrong about this..but surley not.

One of the biggest lies are here

j8wk2feszrnpao

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What about one that will have zero chance of survival outside of the womb once born?

Sorry, I don't fully understand your question.
If it's born and dies, it's tragic.
Do I agree that in such circumstances, abortion should be allowed? I'd have to agree (esp as I'm voting Yes). Maybe the government should have gone this route to start off with, i.e. under such (an other) circumstances allow abortion.
i.e. ease those with reservations into it.