The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Captain Flaps · 21-05-2018 03:44PM

Withdrawal has also long since been dismissed as an effective contraceptive method. Hope that's just egg on your face

Ave Sodalis · 21-05-2018 03:45PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Actually you can...I'd love to see where you got that unsubstantiated nonsense

In any event even if you had a valid point (you don't) s spermicide is easily inserted there

And I actually listed 5 methods...so

Stop making excuses

The cap has horrid failure rates!

Did you know that even sterilisation is not 100% effective?

Monkey09 · 21-05-2018 03:45PM

amcalester wrote: »

I don't know, nor do I really care.

I'm happy for women to make the decision that is right for them.

I don't think that a fetus of less than 12 weeks is deserving of rights over and above the mother's right to bodily autonomy.

After 12 weeks I'll admit it does get more complicated but as the vast vast majority of abortions will occur before then it's almost a moot point.

Have to seen a 12 week old foetus?

Cupcake_Crisis · 21-05-2018 03:46PM

Bredabe wrote: »

Surprisingly not as hazard-free as ppl think, as there is a possibility of spillage from the bum to the area of the virgina, and sperm in that area is not recommended.

Well thanks for ruining bum sex for me.

THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS!

Ave Sodalis · 21-05-2018 03:46PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

Have to seen a 12 week old foetus?

I'm assuming "to" is meant to be "you", but yes.

Leroy42 · 21-05-2018 03:46PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

If something is legal, the numbers requesting the service will increase. When something is legal, people tend to believe it is right. If abortion was introduced In Ireland, the number of women requesting this service would increase dramatically. Abortion was introduced in the UK to solve the problem of back street abortions, it was never intended to be what it has become. If abortion was available in Ireland, many women experiencing a crisis pregnancy would choose this easy solution or would be pressurised into making this decision by others. If it meant having to travel, the time needed to organise everything could be the time needed to respond to the crisis and change their minds about an abortion.

Youth pregnancy is legal yet we are continuing to see reducing numbers of young mothers?

Easy option? What are you talking about. You think its easy? You think that the woman sees this as a bit of a laugh, shag, abortion, pints?

The legislation, which the dail will pass, will deal with waiting times etc. We were told that divorce would end marriage, yet the dail introduced 5 years which has, in part, led to very low levels.

You need to give the people of Ireland some credit. We tend, on the whole, to be quite a responsible bunch and have not shown any inclination to come off like you seem to be suggesting.

....... · 21-05-2018 03:48PM

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....... · 21-05-2018 03:49PM

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Monkey09 · 21-05-2018 03:51PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Youth pregnancy is legal yet we are continuing to see reducing numbers of young mothers?

Easy option? What are you talking about. You think its easy? You think that the woman sees this as a bit of a laugh, shag, abortion, pints?

The legislation, which the dail will pass, will deal with waiting times etc. We were told that divorce would end marriage, yet the dail introduced 5 years which has, in part, led to very low levels.

You need to give the people of Ireland some credit. We tend, on the whole, to be quite a responsible bunch and have not shown any inclination to come off like you seem to be suggesting.

What I meant by easy solution was that it is a quick way of solving the problem. It would put a quick end to the crisis. If this was not available in Ireland, it would take more time to organise and this could be the time that causes her to change her mind, when the crisis is not as new and confusing to her.

....... · 21-05-2018 03:53PM

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Leroy42 · 21-05-2018 03:53PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

What I meant by easy solution was that it is a quick way of solving the problem. It would put a quick end to the crisis. If this was not available in Ireland, it would take more time to organise and this could be the time that causes her to change her mind, when the crisis is not as new and confusing to her.

So again, what is your solution to the current situation we face where 3k+ women, each and every year, and forced to travel to another jurisdiction to obtain medical treatment with all the inherent risks that that carries.

Voting no does nothing to solve this problem.

You tries to suggest that just because we pass the legislation that women will be partaking in abortions all over the place, yet provide nothing to back up the claim. I provided evidence, divorce, or instances where Ireland has shown it is not like that.

You also seem to suggest, by your claim that the journey times and costs somehow control the numbers, that you don't have faith the dail to adequately legislate. This is based on what exactly? Again, I showed, again by way of the divorce legislation, that TD's are a conversative bunch and their is little to suggest that they will suddenly cast that off

Bannasidhe · 21-05-2018 03:53PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Quite the crowd waiting in the Gay Lobby when your free.

I can't make it today.

I'm scheduled down for angry lesbianing and railing against the patriarchy until 8pm and then I have a furniture up-cycling workshop. Can't miss tonight. It's chalk paint vs acrylic.

Tomorrow's no better. Feminazzing all morning and Mindfulobstreperousing until 7pm.

I could do Wednesday 11-3.

PhoenixParker · 21-05-2018 03:53PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

Just because something is done off the island of Ireland doesn't mean it should be done here. Prostitution is legal in Amsterdam. Should it be legalised here for that reason?

Generally when formulating laws you look at what other countries are doing and what outcomes they are having. Then you consider the Irish context and what outcomes are desireable and adjust your laws accordingly.

So yes if countries are having better success at harm reduction for given measure X with a different approach then we should consider that approach.

Be it for drugs, prostitution or in this case abortion.
Ireland has some of the most restrictive abortion laws in the developed world.

Those laws haven’t stopped women from having abortions. 3500 in the UK, how many thousands of others giving false addresses and buying pills online? No opportunity to provide the crucial counseling or support that may help a woman decide not to have an abortion.

Those laws put the health and well-being of all pregnant women at risk.
Those laws create hundreds of horrifically “hard” cases a year.

It’s time to look at what other countries are doing and come up with something that works better.

erica74 · 21-05-2018 03:55PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

What I meant by easy solution was that it is a quick way of solving the problem. It would put a quick end to the crisis. If this was not available in Ireland, it would take more time to organise and this could be the time that causes her to change her mind, when the crisis is not as new and confusing to her.

Or, how about we just allow every woman to make the decision for herself and be able to access all options here in Ireland? What's so wrong with that? What makes us so different to every other country where abortion is legal?

gmisk · 21-05-2018 03:56PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

What I meant by easy solution was that it is a quick way of solving the problem. It would put a quick end to the crisis. If this was not available in Ireland, it would take more time to organise and this could be the time that causes her to change her mind, when the crisis is not as new and confusing to her.

That is probably partially why there is a proposed 3 day delay

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 03:56PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

What I meant by easy solution was that it is a quick way of solving the problem. It would put a quick end to the crisis. If this was not available in Ireland, it would take more time to organise and this could be the time that causes her to change her mind, when the crisis is not as new and confusing to her.

You must take women to be absolute fools if you think forcing them to travel is a deterrent.
It isn't. They will still have the abortion. It just makes it unsafe to have to travel.

And your post is the epitome of NIMBYism - you are ok with Irish women aborting Irish babies so long as it doesn't happen in Ireland.

circadian · 21-05-2018 03:57PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Gladly

Condom
Bar/pill/patch
Cervical cap
Withdrawal

You can add the natural cycle method too for 5...but that's asking too much restraint for most

Feel free to dig around here

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control

Withdrawal? Natural cycle method? Abstinence?

What year did I stumble into? Christ almighty.

Bannasidhe · 21-05-2018 03:57PM

gmisk wrote: »

Why?
Would you end up with something like a balloon animal? I suppose its inevitable with all that pumping and air!

I have to say, from an anthropological viewpoint, the heterosexual lifestyle is fascinating. And complicated...

I'm learning soooo much I feel a thesis coming on.

jigglypuffstuff · 21-05-2018 03:57PM

Captain Flaps wrote: »

Withdrawal has also long since been dismissed as an effective contraceptive method. Hope that's just egg on your face

Oh dear... you're equally juvenile and misinformed

Every contraceptive method has an % rate of efficiency. Withdrawal is 78%

It was dismissed as a sole method... Because there exists more methods with higher rates of efficiency. It is actively encouraged as s supplementary method

No egg on my face... I just pity the stupidity of what you said and your inability to keep the discussion within the context

Monkey09 · 21-05-2018 03:58PM

erica74 wrote: »

Or, how about we just allow every woman to make the decision for herself and be able to access all options here in Ireland? What's so wrong with that? What makes us so different to every other country where abortion is legal?

So we should just allow women to kill their own child in the womb, if that's what she decides to do?

Neyite · 21-05-2018 03:58PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have to say, from an anthropological viewpoint, the heterosexual lifestyle is fascinating. And complicated...

I'm learning soooo much I feel a thesis coming on.

I'd quite like to read a thesis on balloon animals. I can only manage the doggy.

antiskeptic · 21-05-2018 03:59PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

According to the linked site you can.

Any honest maths gurus who can work out the enhanced protection involved in 3 methods combined. Say the implant (99% effective and lasts 4 years) then a 90% effective and an 80% effective. Assume all 3 work together (no conflict or overlap of action), and are used correctly.

Leroy42 · 21-05-2018 03:59PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

So we should just allow women to kill their own child in the womb, if that's what she decides to do?

I feel like a broken record now, what is your alternative?

You can keep stamping your feet but it won't change the FACT that 3k+ women a year are doing exactly that.

uptherebels · 21-05-2018 03:59PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

So we should just allow women to kill their own child in the womb, if that's what she decides to do?

All of us already allow termination of pregnancy at any point

PhoenixParker · 21-05-2018 04:00PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

If something is legal, the numbers requesting the service will increase. When something is legal, people tend to believe it is right. If abortion was introduced In Ireland, the number of women requesting this service would increase dramatically. Abortion was introduced in the UK to solve the problem of back street abortions, it was never intended to be what it has become. If abortion was available in Ireland, many women experiencing a crisis pregnancy would choose this easy solution or would be pressurised into making this decision by others. If it meant having to travel, the time needed to organise everything could be the time needed to respond to the crisis and change their minds about an abortion.

Try reading this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html

Women want or don’t want a pregnancy irrespective of the legal status of abortion, that part is down to circumstances. When they don’t want to be pregnant they will go to extreme lengths to obtain an abortion.

Zubeneschamali · 21-05-2018 04:00PM

erica74 wrote: »

What makes us so different to every other country where abortion is legal?

Snakes, right? Something to do with banishing snakes?

Billy86 · 21-05-2018 04:01PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

So we should just allow women to kill their own child in the womb, if that's what she decides to do?

Not being funny here, but wouldn't this have to mean you are against the morning after pill? Or is there a specific time you would identify that it stops being cells and becomes 'a child'?

Monkey09 · 21-05-2018 04:01PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

You must take women to be absolute fools if you think forcing them to travel is a deterrent.
It isn't. They will still have the abortion. It just makes it unsafe to have to travel.

And your post is the epitome of NIMBYism - you are ok with Irish women aborting Irish babies so long as it doesn't happen in Ireland.

I never said I was OK with it. My hope would be that if abortion was not available in Ireland, it would prevent some women from obtaining one.

....... · 21-05-2018 04:01PM

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amcalester · 21-05-2018 04:02PM

Monkey09 wrote: »

Have to seen a 12 week old foetus?

12 weeks no.

I have helped my partner through taking abortion pills after suffering a missed miscarriage and all that goes with that.

I cleaned up the blood on the floor from when she was in too much pain to get to the toilet, I washed the blood off her between contractions, I held her while she cried. I spoke to the nurse over the phone when we were worried about the amount of blood.

I am well aware of what an abortion before 12 weeks entails.

I'm also aware of the limitations of treatment available because of the 8th after being told that our baby hadn't developed past 6 weeks, but that my girlfriend would have to go home and come back in a week to check again.

Check again they said, after telling us that there was no chance the baby was alive, but we had to wait a week before doing anything because of the 8th.

A week of waiting for her body to expel the contents of her womb. Wondering if it would happen at work, or when out shopping.

And my entire sympathy is with the women who are being forced to do this in secret, alone and scared or those women forced to travel for treatment that should be available here.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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