The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

wexie

Billy86 wrote: »

Not being funny here, but wouldn't this have to mean you are against the morning after pill? Or is there a specific time you would identify that it stops being cells and becomes 'a child'?

I'm gonna guess it's not 12 weeks

nullzero

I think a yes vote would have been a shoo in if abortion was proposed for so called "hard cases" as opposed to a door being left ajar for abortion "on demand".
The law needs to change but I know myself that I'm not comfortable with convenience abortions but at the same time I'm appalled by the criminalization of people in horrific situations who require compassion and most likely choose abortion as a last resort. We nerd change but the proposed change were voting on May be out of sync with where Ireland is just now.

Bannasidhe

wexie wrote: »

....yeah certainly if we have to use 3/4 contraceptives the mating rituals are a lot more complicated then I'd ever imagined. Can't believe I've been doing it wrong all this time

Do you people not have helplines?? :eek:

circadian

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Have you posted a single true thing on this thread?

Yes. That they're voting No.

antiskeptic

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Try reading this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html



Women want or don’t want a pregnancy irrespective of the legal status of abortion, that part is down to circumstances. When they don’t want to be pregnant they will go to extreme lengths to obtain an abortion.

Somehow I dont think 200000 people a year were going to extreme lengths in the uk before abortion was introduced.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Hi all, just looking for some simle answers.
At the moment I'm leaning towards No, but really I'm very much in the Undecided category.

When we last had the referendum I didn't vote. Myself and another male friend were of the opinion that this was very much a women's vote.
Since then, we both have had kids, and so it's more on our mind now.

Seeing a 12 week scan, and to have it grow into a child, puts far more perspective on the issue that the more care-free manner we had previously (just describing ourselves, not anyone else).

I can't imagine that abortions are without a huge deal of stress and mental trauma for women. Dealing with the procedure itself, the mental torture of deciding to go ahead with the operation, and coping with it long term.

Maybe there are some women who would see it as an handy opt-out if prevention doesn't work. I'd imagine this would be the extreme minority. From my experience, a man is a dad the day a child emerges, a women is a mom 9 months previously. It's something men don't fully understand (in my opinion).

So, to the questions.

• Is this open to all women who seek an abortion up to the 12 weeks mark?
• From reading about this, there is a wait period after consultation. Does that mean it could go beyond 12 weeks (i.e. consultation after 11 weeks and 6days, and then proceed with the abortion some time later)?
• Does the father of the child/fetus have any say in the matter? i.e. if a women went ahead with the birth, then the father has some moral/legal obligations, some maybe should have a degree of consultation as well?

Any guidance would be appreciated. Not looking to get into a heated debate on the issue. I've two girls, so I'm trying to approach this from both sides of the fence in terms of knowing what they were after 12 weeks and should they ever need to avail of an abortion at some stage of their lives.

I see this as a tough decision to make, so again, any guidance is appreciated.

Monkey09

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Did they interview the foetus or what?

https://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/13

You can watch the video called "The Silent Scream"

wexie

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you people not have helplines?? :eek:

No just Youtube videos

nullzero

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Hi all, just looking for some simle answers.
At the moment I'm leaning towards No, but really I'm very much in the Undecided category.

When we last had the referendum I didn't vote. Myself and another male friend were of the opinion that this was very much a women's vote.
Since then, we both have had kids, and so it's more on our mind now.

Seeing a 12 week scan, and to have it grow into a child, puts far more perspective on the issue that the more care-free manner we had previously (just describing ourselves, not anyone else).

I can't imagine that abortions are without a huge deal of stress and mental trauma for women. Dealing with the procedure itself, the mental torture of deciding to go ahead with the operation, and coping with it long term.

Maybe there are some women who would see it as an handy opt-out if prevention doesn't work. I'd imagine this would be the extreme minority. From my experience, a man is a dad the day a child emerges, a women is a mom 9 months previously. It's something men don't fully understand (in my opinion).

So, to the questions.

• Is this open to all women who seek an abortion up to the 12 weeks mark?
• From reading about this, there is a wait period after consultation. Does that mean it could go beyond 12 weeks (i.e. consultation after 11 weeks and 6days, and then proceed with the abortion some time later)?
• Does the father of the child/fetus have any say in the matter? i.e. if a women went ahead with the birth, then the father has some moral/legal obligations, some maybe should have a degree of consultation as well?

Any guidance would be appreciated. Not looking to get into a heated debate on the issue. I've two girls, so I'm trying to approach this from both sides of the fence in terms of knowing what they were after 12 weeks and should they ever need to avail of an abortion at some stage of their lives.

I see this as a tough decision to make, so again, any guidance is appreciated.

You should seek out information yourself, there are no easy answers and too many people who will happily recruit anybody to their cause in this debate.
Make up your own mind.

erica74

Monkey09 wrote: »

So we should just allow women to kill their own child in the womb, if that's what she decides to do?

Well, abort rather than kill, but, yes. It's not called the "Kill Referendum" or the "Murder Referendum", it's called the Abortion Referendum because it's about abortion not murder. You might find the refcom website useful if you still don't understand what the Referendum is about.

Yer Da sells Avon

Monkey09 wrote: »

https://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/13

You can watch the video called "The Silent Scream"

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/11/opinion/a-false-scream.html

Monkey09

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Hi all, just looking for some simle answers.
At the moment I'm leaning towards No, but really I'm very much in the Undecided category.

When we last had the referendum I didn't vote. Myself and another male friend were of the opinion that this was very much a women's vote.
Since then, we both have had kids, and so it's more on our mind now.

Seeing a 12 week scan, and to have it grow into a child, puts far more perspective on the issue that the more care-free manner we had previously (just describing ourselves, not anyone else).

I can't imagine that abortions are without a huge deal of stress and mental trauma for women. Dealing with the procedure itself, the mental torture of deciding to go ahead with the operation, and coping with it long term.

Maybe there are some women who would see it as an handy opt-out if prevention doesn't work. I'd imagine this would be the extreme minority. From my experience, a man is a dad the day a child emerges, a women is a mom 9 months previously. It's something men don't fully understand (in my opinion).

So, to the questions.

• Is this open to all women who seek an abortion up to the 12 weeks mark?
• From reading about this, there is a wait period after consultation. Does that mean it could go beyond 12 weeks (i.e. consultation after 11 weeks and 6days, and then proceed with the abortion some time later)?
• Does the father of the child/fetus have any say in the matter? i.e. if a women went ahead with the birth, then the father has some moral/legal obligations, some maybe should have a degree of consultation as well?

Any guidance would be appreciated. Not looking to get into a heated debate on the issue. I've two girls, so I'm trying to approach this from both sides of the fence in terms of knowing what they were after 12 weeks and should they ever need to avail of an abortion at some stage of their lives.

I see this as a tough decision to make, so again, any guidance is appreciated.

Yes, this is open to all women, regardless of the circumstances - abortion on demand.
I'm not sure about waiting times.
The father has no say in the matter.

The documentary called the silent scream shows the abortion of a 12 week old foetus. It's very informative. The link is above. Please vote no. We need all the support we can get. Thank u!

gmisk

Monkey09 wrote: »

https://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/13

You can watch the video called "The Silent Scream"

Ok...I was waiting for this video to pop up.
This video is riddled with scientific, medical, and legal inaccuracies, misleading statements, and exaggerations.
Translation - It is pretty much bunkem
And it does not depict a foetus at 12 weeks.

Cupcake_Crisis

wexie wrote: »

No just Youtube videos

Did you not get invited to the weekly support groups?

Leroy42

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Hi all, just looking for some simle answers.
At the moment I'm leaning towards No, but really I'm very much in the Undecided category.

When we last had the referendum I didn't vote. Myself and another male friend were of the opinion that this was very much a women's vote.
Since then, we both have had kids, and so it's more on our mind now.

Seeing a 12 week scan, and to have it grow into a child, puts far more perspective on the issue that the more care-free manner we had previously (just describing ourselves, not anyone else).

I can't imagine that abortions are without a huge deal of stress and mental trauma for women. Dealing with the procedure itself, the mental torture of deciding to go ahead with the operation, and coping with it long term.

Maybe there are some women who would see it as an handy opt-out if prevention doesn't work. I'd imagine this would be the extreme minority. From my experience, a man is a dad the day a child emerges, a women is a mom 9 months previously. It's something men don't fully understand (in my opinion).

So, to the questions.

• Is this open to all women who seek an abortion up to the 12 weeks mark?
• From reading about this, there is a wait period after consultation. Does that mean it could go beyond 12 weeks (i.e. consultation after 11 weeks and 6days, and then proceed with the abortion some time later)?
• Does the father of the child/fetus have any say in the matter? i.e. if a women went ahead with the birth, then the father has some moral/legal obligations, some maybe should have a degree of consultation as well?

Any guidance would be appreciated. Not looking to get into a heated debate on the issue. I've two girls, so I'm trying to approach this from both sides of the fence in terms of knowing what they were after 12 weeks and should they ever need to avail of an abortion at some stage of their lives.

I see this as a tough decision to make, so again, any guidance is appreciated.

All reassonable questions but not anything to do with the ref your are being asked to vote on.

The question boils down to whether we should continue to export the problem or face it in Ireland. Voting no removes even a debate about all the questions you have. Voting yes means that all those questions can be debated, legislated for and adjusted as new information comes to hand.

Bannasidhe

wexie wrote: »

No just Youtube videos

That's awful.
Sure any eejit can post a video there.

I mean, have you seen The Silent Scream? I saw a video of a talking French Bulldog that was more accurate (and realistic) than that.

gmisk

Monkey09 wrote: »

Yes, this is open to all women, regardless of the circumstances - abortion on demand.
I'm not sure about waiting times.
The father has no say in the matter.

The documentary called the silent scream shows the abortion of a 12 week old foetus. It's very informative. The link is above. Please vote no. We need all the support we can get. Thank u!

This is a LIE!

The foetus in question is not of the stated gestational age of 12 weeks, and the details of the procedure are embellished.

ebbsy

erica74 wrote: »

Well, abort rather than kill, but, yes. It's not called the "Kill Referendum" or the "Murder Referendum", it's called the Abortion Referendum because it's about abortion not murder. You might find the refcom website useful if you still don't understand what the Referendum is about.

Try telling that to some people.

erica74

Monkey09 wrote: »

The father has no say in the matter.

What say does the father currently have over his unborn baby?

Also, just making sure you see my earlier response as the thread is fast moving.

erica74 wrote: »

Well, abort rather than kill, but, yes. It's not called the "Kill Referendum" or the "Murder Referendum", it's called the Abortion Referendum because it's about abortion not murder. You might find the refcom website useful if you still don't understand what the Referendum is about.

The refcom website is very helpful. It explains exactly what you'll be voting on, because you seem unsure.

jigglypuffstuff

uptherebels wrote: »

Except that unless one is 100% it will always have a failure rate. Even if it's a small failure rate, across a country of a couple of million people that's still alot of unwanted pregnancies

Outercourse is 100% effective... again asking too much of people to engage in that regularly, yet abstain from THE ONE ACT which exclusively results in human procreation if they don't want to risk becoming pregnant

And look at the responses

This " me me me" narrative is typical of anything to get everything they want and little to no restraint or sacrifice for anyone other than themselves


It's just a sad reflection of the modern mindset in Ireland

Blazer

gmisk wrote: »

Ok...I was waiting for this video to pop up.
This video is riddled with scientific, medical, and legal inaccuracies, misleading statements, and exaggerations.
Translation - It is pretty much bunkem
And it does not depict a foetus at 12 weeks.

It’s just typical of no voters. They’re too dumb to have a proper debate and resort to lies and repost complete nonsense and try and drown out whatever people disagree with them.
By all means vote with your conscience but don’t lie to justify your choice and to sway people to your side.

antiskeptic

26k,25k,58k,91k,133k. Abortions in the UK in the 5 years from 1967.

Cant paste link. Google Historical
Abortion statistics uk. Table down the page.

Abortions wont increase??

Cupcake_Crisis

pone2012 wrote: »

Outercourse is 100% effective... again asking too much of people to engage in that regularly, yet abstain from THE ONE ACT which exclusively results in human procreation if they don't want to risk becoming pregnant

And look at the responses

This " me me me" narrative is typical of anything to get everything they want and little to no restraint or sacrifice for anyone other than themselves


It's just a sad reflection of the modern mindset in Ireland

People are allowed to be selfish. People are allowed to enjoy sex. The alternative you are peddling is unrealistic at best. If people stopped having recreational sex the population would plummet.

gmisk

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Hi all, just looking for some simle answers.
At the moment I'm leaning towards No, but really I'm very much in the Undecided category.

When we last had the referendum I didn't vote. Myself and another male friend were of the opinion that this was very much a women's vote.
Since then, we both have had kids, and so it's more on our mind now.

Seeing a 12 week scan, and to have it grow into a child, puts far more perspective on the issue that the more care-free manner we had previously (just describing ourselves, not anyone else).

I can't imagine that abortions are without a huge deal of stress and mental trauma for women. Dealing with the procedure itself, the mental torture of deciding to go ahead with the operation, and coping with it long term.

Maybe there are some women who would see it as an handy opt-out if prevention doesn't work. I'd imagine this would be the extreme minority. From my experience, a man is a dad the day a child emerges, a women is a mom 9 months previously. It's something men don't fully understand (in my opinion).

So, to the questions.

• Is this open to all women who seek an abortion up to the 12 weeks mark?
• From reading about this, there is a wait period after consultation. Does that mean it could go beyond 12 weeks (i.e. consultation after 11 weeks and 6days, and then proceed with the abortion some time later)?
• Does the father of the child/fetus have any say in the matter? i.e. if a women went ahead with the birth, then the father has some moral/legal obligations, some maybe should have a degree of consultation as well?

Any guidance would be appreciated. Not looking to get into a heated debate on the issue. I've two girls, so I'm trying to approach this from both sides of the fence in terms of knowing what they were after 12 weeks and should they ever need to avail of an abortion at some stage of their lives.

I see this as a tough decision to make, so again, any guidance is appreciated.

I would recommend having a look at

https://refcom2018.refcom.ie/refcom-guide-2018-english.pdf


This is from the referendum commission and gives a very solid independent overview.


I would also personally urge you to look at the stories on the In her shoes facebook page, these are stories from real woman and couples who have been adversely effected by the 8th.
https://www.facebook.com/RepealTheEighth/

Bannasidhe

pone2012 wrote: »

Outercourse is 100% effective... again asking too much of people to engage in that regularly, yet abstain from THE ONE ACT which exclusively results in human procreation if they don't want to risk becoming pregnant

And look at the responses

This " me me me" narrative is typical of anything to get everything they want and little to no restraint or sacrifice for anyone other than themselves


It's just a sad reflection of the modern mindset in Ireland

Abstinence has never really worked though has it?


Even people who swore oaths to be abstinent were intercoursing all over the place. And not just in modern Ireland. Back as far as late antiquity there is evidence of wanton intercoursing.

We won't even mention the amount of Papal intercoursing that was going on but suffice to say that many a cardinal got the gig because his daddy was Pope.

j8wk2feszrnpao

nullzero wrote: »

You should seek out information yourself, there are no easy answers and too many people who will happily recruit anybody to their cause in this debate.
Make up your own mind.

That's what I'm looking to do. This isn't the only place I'm asking/checking.
I'm not looking to be recruited, and I'm old enough to see those who just wish to sway me.

PhoenixParker

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That said, official numbers will certainly rise. The abortions we know about today are only part of the story. Women give UK addresses at UK clinics. Women risk 14 years in jail ordering pills off the internet. These abortions are happening today, but are not counted.

If abortion is made available legally without restriction as proposed, all of these hidden abortions will go on the record, and the rate will certainly be higher than the official numbers today.

Absolutely 100% true.
And the pro lifers will point desperate fingers.

antiskeptic

Leroy42 wrote: »

All reassonable questions but not anything to do with the ref your are being asked to vote on.

The question boils down to whether we should continue to export the problem or face it in Ireland. Voting no removes even a debate about all the questions you have. Voting yes means that all those questions can be debated, legislated for and adjusted as new information comes to hand.

A fool and his constitution are easily parted. No one seriously supposes the question that simple. Or restriction obtained so easily.

jigglypuffstuff

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Abstinence has never really worked though has it?


Even people who swore oaths to be abstinent were intercoursing all over the place. And not just in modern Ireland. Back as far as late antiquity there is evidence of wanton intercoursing.

We won't even mention the amount of Papal intercoursing that was going on but suffice to say that many a cardinal got the gig because his daddy was Pope.

You're confusing sexual abstinence with abstinence solely from the act of intercourse...they are not the the same thing

erica74

pone2012 wrote: »

You're confusing sexual abstinence with abstinence solely from the act of intercourse...they are not the the same thing

But why can't people just have some sex? Why do we have to abstain?