Jastine Valdez found dead. No Ana discussion please. Mod warning post 1

Green Peter · 21-05-2018 07:12AM

tretorn wrote:

What did the Gardai do when the member of the public reported the abduction. Did they go to where the woman was last seen immediately. I notice they found her phone at daybreak but this was after her parents reported her missing, was she gone for twelve hours by the time the phone was found.

Ring bray Garda station and ask them, I doubt you will be satisfied regardless. Some serious experts on boards.ie

Barry Badrinath · 21-05-2018 07:15AM

Omackeral wrote: »

Look, it’s all could’ves and should’ves until we know more. It’s possible that he alluded to a hostage, it’s possible he charged at Gardai armed, it’s possible he moved at an unopportune time, it’s possible that the marksman panicked. There’s a multitude of possibilities. The people saying “well I would’ve done it this way” are the ones I’ve a problem with. If they’re so good, sign them up.

Its perfectly fine to speculate, thats all we can do at the moment. I agree the "Would've done it this way" crowd dont appreciate what it would be like in the situation, but they are only exploring possible alternatives.

Valid alternatives as the guy whonwas shot, may be the only person who knows where the woman is.

Speaking as someome who is trained to use fire arms, including the appropriate use of force for any situation, the firing of ammunition to hit is the last resort.....at least in the military. I am hoping AGS have similar proceedures in place.

My initial thoughs on the situation screams as a panic reaction by the AGS member. Thats exactly what it looks like. I would also wager more than 2 rounds were fired.

Will we ever know the exact circumstances of the event? Doubtful, especially if the AGS member was wrong. AGS HQ cant have the public thinking that armed AGS members get it wrong.

Lunge or not, move or not, two effective shots into a man armed with a knife doesnt look good for the GSOC investigation.

weldoninhio · 21-05-2018 07:17AM

Barry Badrinath wrote: »

The only defence to a headshot is if the kidnapper had the knife close to a member of AGS or a civilian with the certainty of imminent death to the AGS member or the civilian.

The AGS member may be well trained but may not be well "reacted".

Two or more shots at a stand off position while your aggressor is armed with a knife...immediately indicates a panic reaction.

Such absolute bull. There is nothing to say this was a “panic reaction”. Firearm training tells you to shoot until the threat is neutralised, not to be counting shots ffs.

And I’d imagine the “headshot” came when the guy slumped rather than someone taking aim at his head.

21-05-2018 07:19AM

It's time for the Gardai to be trained with Tasers. Have no idea why this approach isn't in place.

Barry Badrinath · 21-05-2018 07:24AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Such absolute bull. There is nothing to say this was a “panic reaction”. Firearm training tells you to shoot until the threat is neutralised, not to be counting shots ffs.

And I’d imagine the “headshot” came when the guy slumped rather than someone taking aim at his head.

All of it suggests a panic reaction.

You dont keep shooting until the threat is nutralised.

You also have to account for every single shot you fire and in an investigation, you will be scrutinised and will have to justify every single shot you fire. If your last shot was unneccessery and it caused the fatal blow whereas the assailant would have otherwise surrvived, you could be up **** creek.

Where did you get your weapons training?

weldoninhio · 21-05-2018 07:25AM

pah wrote: »

https://www.newstalk.com/GRA-claims-tasers-are-singularly-best-option-to-protect-garda-in-nonlethal-way This was 2 weeks ago

https://www.newstalk.com/-GRA-on-Garda-assaults August 2015

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/gra-to-call-for-stun-guns-for-all-gardai-1.753957 2009!!

As usual something bad has to happen before the govt are FORCED to make changes. Stab vests for gardai AFTER high profile incidents of gardai being stabbed. Gardaí were shouting for less lethal options long before Abbeylara.

Tasers may have made a difference in this situation

By all accounts the guy was in his car when shot. Taser wouldn’t have been an option.

Malayalam · 21-05-2018 07:26AM

This case has me gripped (with horror). How the hell are they going to find her? The poor girl. This guy seems to have been circling in a small enough area between Saturday evening and being shot on Sunday. And he looks like such an inoffensive mousy type in the picture - we really have no idea about the hidden darkness in people. It's frightening.

Get Real · 21-05-2018 07:27AM

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Wow some boo boo to have shot dead the only guy who knew where she is, especially when he didn't even have a gun!

I don't think it was a boo boo. You don't shoot a man without it being a last resort. Especially in this country. He kidnapped an innocent woman on a Saturday afternoon. That guard has to wake up knowing he killed someone, will now be subject to months of investigation and public scrutiny such as yours. We weren't there.

Knives can kill, whatever happened during this incident, it may not have been ideal, but it has happened, and I'm willing to accept it seeing as we had a desperate man, who carried out this crime, who's wife now knew, who's world had fallen apart,and produced a knife and whatever happened after that.

You're hardly going to just shoot someone at random when there's no immediate danger to yourself, especially as this isn't America and a gun is pulled and used daily with a low threshold.

I hope this lady is found safe and well. At the moment that gun was used, so many factors would have come in to play. God forbid, her not being in the car, it's possible something had already happened her, and this man had nothing to lose.

CeilingFly · 21-05-2018 07:28AM

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Wow some boo boo to have shot dead the only guy who knew where she is, especially when he didn't even have a gun!

This guy was deranged, had a knife and put a garda in danger of his / her life.

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

RTE said he had no previous

Maybe no convictions, doesn't mean there's no history

ebbsy wrote: »

If she is found alive it will be no thanks to Bungle and Zippy.

You really think he would have opened up and told gardai everything?? - Please don't tell me you are that naive!!

Gardai have access to phone data records. The easy records are those that show actual usage and nging off masks and can be got almost immediately. Takes a little time (hours) to get the records of movement of the phone when not in active use, but still switched on.

But the part-time sleuths of boards of course know better

whiskeyman · 21-05-2018 07:29AM

Has it been confirmed the shooting killed him?
I'm thinking perhaps he threatened to kill himself, so the Guards tried to incapacitate him, but he ended up fatally injuring himself anyway.

tretorn · 21-05-2018 07:30AM

I think its fair to ask what response the Gardai made when someone reported an abduction and gave a description of the car with some details of the car reg.
Was the search of the abduction site that was done at first light the first search.
The phone was found twelve hours after its owner went missing.
If she wasnt reported missing would her phone be still lying there.

Barry Badrinath · 21-05-2018 07:30AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

By all accounts the guy was in his car when shot. Taser wouldn’t have been an option.

Jesus.

He was in the car when he was shot?

Fcuk me, if that doesnt signify a panic reaction from AGS, I dont know what else would.

He was in his car....holding a knife....and was shot?

Dont AGS wear stab proof vests?

Holy Fcuk.

weldoninhio · 21-05-2018 07:31AM

Barry Badrinath wrote: »

All of it suggests a panic reaction.

You dont keep shooting until the threat is nutralised.

You also have to account for every single shot you fire and in an investigation, you will be scrutinised and will have to justify every single shot you fire. If your last shot was unneccessery and it caused the fatal blow whereas the assailant would have otherwise surrvived, you could be up **** creek.

Where did you get your weapons training?

Where I train/trained is irrelevant. You are talking nonsense. More than 2 shots a panic reaction?? Waffle. Yes, you have to account for every bullet, but if you do decide to shoot, you shoot to kill. This isn’t NCIS:Dublin

allthedoyles · 21-05-2018 07:32AM

Barry Badrinath wrote: »

Jesus.

He was in the car when he was shot?

Fcuk me, if that doesnt signify a panic reaction from AGS, I dont know what else would.

He was in his car....holding a knife....and was shot?

Dont AGS wear stab proof vests?

Holy Fcuk.

Calm down............its all speculation right now

Lackey · 21-05-2018 07:32AM

Green Peter wrote: »

Ring bray Garda station and ask them, I doubt you will be satisfied regardless. Some serious experts on boards.ie

Unless the answer is they left the station immediately to investigate then .....no. I don't think anyone will be satisfied.

the guards are underresoirced, they are not backed up by the courts re sentancing, and I dont know how they do they're job. (I've likened it before to pissing into the wind)

I know people who have rang the guards before to be told there's no car available/only one guard in the station etc ...I don't blame the guards for those situations...

but please tell me if someone reports a woman being abducted that they will sort something to get out there ASAP

heroics · 21-05-2018 07:32AM

Nobody on here knows. I love all the people who watch the movies/TV, read fiction etc sure just shoot them in the leg etc.

Maybe guy was shot in the arm and kept going so was shot again? Shoot until threat is neutralized.

This was more than likely not ARU/ERU as they have tasers/non lethal options. Regular armed members don't have these options.

The Garda don't just shoot to kill for no reason. For example even when one of their own was shot they still didn't kill the suspect https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1207/925601-ballymun-incident/

baldbear · 21-05-2018 07:35AM

The Gardai only found her phone at 6am. They didn't find it the previous evening. Surely this delay is huge.

They could of had a public info request out that Saturday evening instead of the 18 hours later .

weldoninhio · 21-05-2018 07:35AM

Barry Badrinath wrote: »

Jesus.

He was in the car when he was shot?

Fcuk me, if that doesnt signify a panic reaction from AGS, I dont know what else would.

He was in his car....holding a knife....and was shot?

Dont AGS wear stab proof vests?

Holy Fcuk.

Yes, because a 1.3 tonne lump of metal that can reach speeds of 115mph, in the hands of an armed dangerous individual is perfectly safe. :rollseyes:

Barry Badrinath · 21-05-2018 07:41AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Where I train/trained is irrelevant. You are talking nonsense. More than 2 shots a panic reaction?? Waffle. Yes, you have to account for every bullet, but if you do decide to shoot, you shoot to kill. This isn’t NCIS:Dublin

It is relevent.

Im not talking nonsense.

2 shots whern there was no need to shoot, is a panic reaction.

Who teaches you this stuff? What are your degrees of force?

Is shooting a man with a knife, sitting in a car, a justifiable action? Or is it an execution?

NCIS:Dublin? This comment alone leads me to believe you were "trained" in Call of Duty.

Every person who is weapons trained knows you are legally accountable for every round you shoot.

"Shoot to kill", such an iidiotic statement from a "trained" weapon user. In fact, if you are in Ireland, everyone should be worried with you walking around.

The Crowman · 21-05-2018 07:44AM

How is everyone so certain he was shot in the car?

Barry Badrinath · 21-05-2018 07:46AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Yes, because a 1.3 tonne lump of metal that can reach speeds of 115mph, in the hands of an armed dangerous individual is perfectly safe. :rollseyes:

Im bowing out of the thread due to this nonsense above and to stop derailing it.

A 1.3 tonne lump of metal in this situation still does not warrant shots to be fired, being "trained", you would know that.

I hope they find the girl and I hope AGS were justified in their actions in the GSOC investigation.

21-05-2018 07:46AM

Barry Badrinath wrote: »

2 shots whern there was no need to shoot, is a panic reaction.

Again , nobody knows this yet.

Mantis Toboggan · 21-05-2018 07:48AM

CeilingFly wrote: »

This guy was deranged, had a knife and put a garda in danger of his / her life.

Where's the proof that he was deranged?

Also wasn't he in the car when they shot him? If so how did they know he had a knife?

It does seem like someone panicked. They had him surrounded. They should have been able to arrest him without killing him and bring him in for questioning. I understand these gardai are highly trained but that's not to say someone made a mistake.

Reati · 21-05-2018 07:53AM

While I agree completely with the views that as no one was there we can't judge the situation and what caused the Gardaí to shoot. GSOC will be the judge of whether the action was justified or not.

I got peoples worry though. The only person who knew for sure where that girl is now lies in a morgue and Gardaí will have a hell of a job finding her now. Masts pings aren't going to do more than narrow it down to a 3 to 5km sqaured area out in the mountains.

Anyway, I really feel for that Gardaí who shot him. Do people here not think they are sitting somewhere now reliving and regretting every millisecond of having to fire that shot knowing that was the most critical lead dead.

Thinking he might be the reason that girl might never be found. You can bet he didn't go down the local celebrating. They made a call (with more info that anyone here has) and now have to live with it. I imagine they hardly slept a wink since.

strandroad · 21-05-2018 07:56AM

Killiney Hill search underway.

21-05-2018 07:57AM

Im sure the armed guard is trained to use the weapon when there is a threath to him or his colleagues lives.

I can't believe what I'm reading

Some people in here don't think that carrying a knife is for leathal use

Sitting in a car or running at you, if he was a threath to life then he was shot which sounds like a reasonable reason to discharge the weapon

pjohnson · 21-05-2018 07:57AM

Barry Badrinath wrote: »

Im bowing out of the thread due to this nonsense above and to stop derailing it.

Also near schooltime

21-05-2018 07:57AM

strandroad wrote: »

Killiney Hill search underway.

Who is reporting that?

cnocbui · 21-05-2018 08:01AM

Tyson Fury wrote: »

that's not to say someone made a mistake.

...didn't make...

strandroad · 21-05-2018 08:02AM

Omackeral wrote: »

Who is reporting that?

Local groups on Facebook. Hill sealed off apparently, they turn dog walkers away.

Jastine Valdez found dead. No Ana discussion please. Mod warning post 1

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