Disciplining Children AKA Back in my day they behaved.

GreeBo · 11-05-2018 09:42AM

Neyite wrote: »

*slap*
"Don't slap your brother. The reason I slapped you is punishment for slapping your brother because slapping is wrong and abusive and you must never do it. Violence is never the answer."
*slap*

Yeah, explaining makes it crystal clear with no contradictions or mixed messages at all. A 4 year old will really get the nuances of your illegal actions towards them. :rolleyes:

*I'm talking your your toy for a day because you took your brothers toy when he was playing with it*

Do you want to try again?

This is great fun and all, but until you come up with an argument that I can't turn back on you just as easily as I above then you are not proving any point that you might think you are.

Neyite · 11-05-2018 09:43AM

GreeBo wrote: »

*I'm talking your your toy for a day because you took your brothers toy when he was playing with it*

Do you want to try again?

This is great fun and all, but until you come up with an argument that I can't turn back on you just as easily as I above then you are not proving any point that you might think you are.

My way is legal. Yours isn't.

andekwarhola · 11-05-2018 09:44AM

Threads like these always end up with the stereotypical poles of permissive hippy vs child abuser.

Smacking is not really an effective means of punishment in its own right but one thing about these threads is that is for every person that's lining up to point out that they turned out OK in the absence of smacking, there's an equal number that did get smacked on occasion who have somehow avoided succumbing to a life of inflicting violence on others.

As ever, real life outstde the keyboard is generally found between the extremes.

GreeBo · 11-05-2018 09:46AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it can be seen in shopping centers, or other public places where in some cases kids are running all over the parents. You can see that combination of helplessness and embarrassment in the faces of the parents, as their kids shout, cry, pull things down, throw tantrums, etc. In an open space, it's fine, and somewhat amusing. In an enclosed space, like a bus/plane, then it's incredibly annoying. (12 hours long flight with children that won't settle down is a nightmare for the whole plane of passengers)

I don't think kids are much worse than before, and honestly, when it comes to kids, it's not really much of an issue. If teens are acting up in a similar manner then that's a different story, but I imagine this thread isn't about teens.

Well these teens started out and learned their behaviors as kids so...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not at all - just need a little context. But then if that's the case, and you're merely highlighting the fallacy in his post, fair enough, my mistake.

But it's difficult position to hold accurately: I mean, how exactly is it possible to know this? Are kids worse today than they were in the 80s, for a start? I'd argue much the same, but would be open to reasoned counter-debate. And how do you know whether their parents using physical chastisement or another form of punishment?

None of this is in any way deals with the arguments I made: the wifi argument is someone else's, not mine; and the slapping/beating argument doesn't deal with communication whichever word you use.

My point was that it's impossible for either side to use today's society to prove their approach is better or worse.

I think I did deal with your arguments, you said slapping is rule by fear, I I pointed out that any correctional behavior is rule by fear, the child is afraid of the consequences, whatever they may be.
Ditto for not getting caught next time.

What point of yours do you think I missed?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-05-2018 09:56AM

GreeBo wrote: »

I think I did deal with your arguments, you said slapping is rule by fear, I I pointed out that any correctional behavior is rule by fear, the child is afraid of the consequences, whatever they may be.
Ditto for not getting caught next time.

What point of yours do you think I missed?

That there's no communication. Same with the wifi rule (which, again, I didn't bring up).
Can you (you generally, not you specifically) communicate to the child what the child has done wrong, yes or no?
If yes - then why do you need to slap at all?
If no - then how is slapping (or any punishment) supposed to teach right from wrong?

Also, rule by fear is will not work when the child is no longer scared. What do you do then?

joey100 · 11-05-2018 09:57AM

The main reason smacking has been banned though isn't because of it's success or not with dealing with behaviour it's because a parent shouldn't hit their child. Much the same way no one should hit anyone. Their is no situation where an 80kg person (rough estimate for a parent) hitting a 30kg child (rough estimate for a 10 year old child) is a fair or appropriate response.

11-05-2018 10:05AM

GreeBo wrote: »

Well these teens started out and learned their behaviors as kids so...

Which is why any argument about slapping children will fail... You're not going to get a rational argument, because people can assume the high moral ground..

However, considering the effects of Teen behavior, then you can argue your point from a better position (will still be difficult). That's why this thread is a set-up, due to the focus on children.

kildare lad · 11-05-2018 10:13AM

Im of the age, that me and many of my school mates got a smack for being bold. Thankfully none of us ended up being violent serial killers. Theres a huge difference between giving your kid a smack on the arse and kicking the ****e out of him. I got slapped growing up and i deserved it to. My sons friend is an absolute nightmare, no manners ,spoilt rotten he has no bother screaming at his parents anywhere, and he's only 10.. Ive watched his parents try and stop his tantrums by the nicey nicey approach and its laughable. They end up having to bribe him with match attack stickers or chocolate to make him stop. He was with my son the other day, and i asked him " did you win your match at the weekend" which he replied to me " mind your own buisness" i was gobsmacked. If i said that as a child to an adult, why dad would make sure i never said it again, and rightly so in my opinion.

LirW · 11-05-2018 10:17AM

kildare lad wrote: »

Im of the age, that me and many of my school mates got a smack for being bold. Thankfully none of us ended up being violent serial killers. Theres a huge difference between giving your kid a smack on the arse and kicking the ****e out of him. I got slapped growing up and i deserved it to. My sons friend is an absolute nightmare, no manners ,spoilt rotten he has no bother screaming at his parents anywhere, and he's only 10.. Ive watched his parents try and stop his tantrums by the nicey nicey approach and its laughable. They end up having to bribe him with match attack stickers or chocolate to make him stop. He was with my son the other day, and i asked him " did you win your match at the weekend" which he replied to me " mind your own buisness" i was gobsmacked. If i said that as a child to an adult, why dad would make sure i never said it again, and rightly so in my opinion.

Problem is though that the root cause is something different, not the missing smack. The reason why that child is like it because the parents approached their parenting concept in a really wrong way. Of course they could have done better without smacking him, most do.
A kid like that is smart enough that if the parent would decide to go with a smack it'll kick up a huge stink and will land the parents in huge trouble.

11-05-2018 11:00AM

LirW wrote: »

Problem is though that the root cause is something different, not the missing smack. The reason why that child is like it because the parents approached their parenting concept in a really wrong way. Of course they could have done better without smacking him, most do.

And you're basing that on what? You're assuming that the lack of physical punishment doesn't have any bearing on his case, when, in fact, strategic usage of spanking might just as easily sorted him out. It might not have, but to simply assume that it wouldn't work is ridiculous... We have centuries where children were smacked for being disrespectful to adults, and it did encourage a culture where children were careful of how they behaved.

I remember being spanked for bad behavior, and knowing that repeating that behavior would result in the same punishment. So I didn't behave that way. I learned to respect adults because I knew the boundaries, and that there would be consequences to crossing those boundaries.

It's when punishment (emotional or physical) is applied without a context/framework, or association with an act, that it becomes incredibly negative.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 11-05-2018 11:12AM

Neyite wrote: »

*slap*
"Don't slap your brother. The reason I slapped you is punishment for slapping your brother because slapping is wrong and abusive and you must never do it. Violence is never the answer."
*slap*

Yeah, explaining makes it crystal clear with no contradictions or mixed messages at all. A 4 year old will really get the nuances of your illegal actions towards them. :rolleyes:

If your colleague boss or partner slapped you across the arse because you did something wrong, it's legally assault and they could be prosecuted for it. Since 2015 when the clause of 'reasonable chastisement' was removed from law as a defence for hitting children, it's effectively a ban on slapping children. You slapping your (hypothetical) child IS legally assault, it IS a crime and can be treated and prosecuted as such.

If you hit an intellectually or physically disabled adult or your dementia-ridden parent, you'd be the lowest scumbag of the low. I'd go as far as to call someone like that an utter cnut. Children are equally as vulnerable as the elderly or disabled, and hitting them is just as wrong, and just as illegal.

Or maybe somebody under extreme stress and pressure who snapped and needs a bit of support/a break. I don't think parents should hit their kids, but at the same time I can understand why a parent who is exhausted, worn out and stressed might smack a constantly misbehaving child across the legs or on the hand. I wouldn't put them in the same category as parents who physically assault their kids, nor would I call them scumbags or utter cnuts.

LirW · 11-05-2018 11:12AM

Deleted User wrote: »

And you're basing that on what? You're assuming that the lack of physical punishment doesn't have any bearing on his case, when, in fact, strategic usage of spanking might just as easily sorted him out. It might not have, but to simply assume that it wouldn't work is ridiculous... We have centuries where children were smacked for being disrespectful to adults, and it did encourage a culture where children were careful of how they behaved.

I remember being spanked for bad behavior, and knowing that repeating that behavior would result in the same punishment. So I didn't behave that way. I learned to respect adults because I knew the boundaries, and that there would be consequences to crossing those boundaries.

It's when punishment (emotional or physical) is applied without a context/framework, or association with an act, that it becomes incredibly negative.

When a kid is taking the p1ss for years a smack is not going to sort that child out now. The parents were enabling that child's bad behaviour for years. If they step up now and start smacking the child chances are quite high that this would backfire big time. Child is smart enough to understand what to do to get the parents to bend over backwards, so I'd assume child is smart enough to understand that playing victim would get him back into power yet again. That is about power when the child is in its early teens already and the problem will not go away by giving the child a healthy smack, by now that's rooted a lot deeper.
You can still sort that kid out without a smack, no bother, it takes a lot more patience and work but is more likely to work in the long run.

The argument of "centuries of smacking" is pretty much invalid, People didn't have the parenting knowledge back then, smacking was passed down from one generation to another, "because it was the done thing". It's 2018, we know better now.
I got my portion of smacks too, did it do me any good? No, I was a pretty sensitive child and I'm terrified to this day of any motions with arms and hands to close to my head. So bad that I have a reflex to hide behind my arms. I didn't understand why my mother would want to hurt me.
Would you accept your partner giving you a smack when you behave like a little sh1t? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't, so why is it any different with kids?

eviltwin · 11-05-2018 11:12AM

I was hit as a child to the point of hospitalisation at times. I always said I'd never hit my kids and never have. Been tempted loads of times but usually when I was very stressed or tired. Never did though and my kids are fine, decent people. Kids don't need physical discipline.

kildare lad · 11-05-2018 11:17AM

LirW wrote: »

Problem is though that the root cause is something different, not the missing smack. The reason why that child is like it because the parents approached their parenting concept in a really wrong way. Of course they could have done better without smacking him, most do.
A kid like that is smart enough that if the parent would decide to go with a smack it'll kick up a huge stink and will land the parents in huge trouble.

I agree with you, it should have been nipped in the bud earlier. Its actually affecting his ability to play with the other kids in school, because if he doesnt get to play in goals in the yard, he'll start crying and go off and stand on the corner on his own. I see it as a some parents want an easy life so instead of disciplining them they give them what they want so they'll avoid a confrontation. I'm just of the opinion if a child is being really bold, that a smack on the arse and a good talking to is no harm.

_Brian · 11-05-2018 11:20AM

I think another big problem is lack of consistency with parents.

At home they live like feral animals all the time with no rules or boundaries being set for kids at all.

Then when they are out obviously the kid just wants to continue the same feral behaviour but the parent is embarrassed and the kid hears the NO word for the first time, typically a lot of roaring screaming and crying follows as the kid isn’t used to having a limit set on their behaviour.

Rechuchote · 11-05-2018 11:21AM

Kids nowadays are waaaaay better behaved, politer and nicer than they were when I was growing up in the era of parental violence.

By the way, are those advocating hitting children also advocating leaving the EU? Abandoning violence towards children was an EU requirement.

LirW · 11-05-2018 11:29AM

kildare lad wrote: »

I agree with you, it should have been nipped in the bud earlier. Its actually affecting his ability to play with the other kids in school, because if he doesnt get to play in goals in the yard, he'll start crying and go off and stand on the corner on his own. I see it as a some parents want an easy life so instead of disciplining them they give them what they want so they'll avoid a confrontation. I'm just of the opinion if a child is being really bold, that a smack on the arse and a good talking to is no harm.

I had a similar child living next door, he moved on. His mother was a piece of work, while her kids are everything and the best and she'd go lion mom when others even look at them she was actually pretty sh1t to him.
He couldn't play with any of the neighbouring kids because he was never taught any manners and constantly got into trouble. If you'd say anything, I sh1t you not, his mother would run to the solicitor.
Felt sorry for him because he isn't given a chance anywhere and he genuinely can't tell right from wrong.
The problem lies so much deeper that a simple smack wouldn't sort that out.

Have to agree with another poster, I think the majority of children nowadays are very polite, nice, compassionate and a lot of them are pretty smart. They learn a lot in school and my experience is that teachers in school also do an awful lot to send nice and understanding children home.
Of course the circumstances change, this is a generation surrounded by a lot of technology and they simply adapt into this world. We did the same when TV or the gameboy came and the older generations were going on about the exact same things: it makes kids lazy, they're mean, they aren't taught any manners anymore and so on.

11-05-2018 11:32AM

Rechuchote wrote: »

Kids nowadays are waaaaay better behaved, politer and nicer than they were when I was growing up in the era of parental violence.

Depends on the family. Naturally. I've met well behaved kids, and I've encountered absolute ****s.

By the way, are those advocating hitting children also advocating leaving the EU? Abandoning violence towards children was an EU requirement.

We're simply discussing the subject. Just that. The law is here, and it's not going away. Many of us grew up in the time when it was acceptable for hit kids, so, we're merely comparing.

Hector Bellend · 11-05-2018 11:44AM

Little Johnny and Little Jenny just need a good crack on the arse every now and then.

As John lennon said. All you need is love and a good crack on the arse.

11-05-2018 11:57AM

LirW wrote: »

When a kid is taking the p1ss for years a smack is not going to sort that child out now. The parents were enabling that child's bad behaviour for years. If they step up now and start smacking the child chances are quite high that this would backfire big time.

Ahh, ok. I was assuming we were talking about had the law not been brought in to prevent such measures. Had they used physical punishment at appropriate times when he was younger, likely he would have known not to act out in such a manner.

Child is smart enough to understand what to do to get the parents to bend over backwards, so I'd assume child is smart enough to understand that playing victim would get him back into power yet again. That is about power when the child is in its early teens already and the problem will not go away by giving the child a healthy smack, by now that's rooted a lot deeper.

All children test and manipulate their parents depending on the success/failure when they attempt it previously.

Now, I agree with you that it's too late for the parents. Although, I don't see it as being too late to come from an uncle or something similar. I still remember being taught to respect my elders by an older cousin who took exception to my attitude.

Still.. it's not going to happen now.

You can still sort that kid out without a smack, no bother, it takes a lot more patience and work but is more likely to work in the long run.

Well, it depends on so many different factors from the temperament of the parents, their connection with the kid, the respect or affection that the child has towards his parents etc.

I did Child psychology courses when i studied to become a teacher, and frankly, there's a whole lot of gray area as to what really happens and how to go about it. There is so much vague nonsense, and wishful thinking as opposed to practical advice in dealing with kids.

The argument of "centuries of smacking" is pretty much invalid, People didn't have the parenting knowledge back then, smacking was passed down from one generation to another, "because it was the done thing". It's 2018, we know better now.

Do we? Most parents receive no formal training to be parents. They use what they learned from their own childhood, or the opposite of how they were treated. There are millions of books on parenting and many of them will contradict each other about how to handle children. Psychology is notorious in it's use of vague research to justify their assumptions...

In many ways, previous generations were better prepared to raise children, due to larger families, home economic classes in schools, the availability of grandparents nearby (as opposed to the people who have moved away from hometown areas), etc.

I got my portion of smacks too, did it do me any good? No, I was a pretty sensitive child and I'm terrified to this day of any motions with arms and hands to close to my head. So bad that I have a reflex to hide behind my arms. I didn't understand why my mother would want to hurt me.
Would you accept your partner giving you a smack when you behave like a little sh1t? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't, so why is it any different with kids?

And I received smacks as a child... and I turned out very aware of peoples boundaries. For every example of being negatively punished as a child, there will be someone with a positive.

Neyite · 11-05-2018 11:57AM

Marlon Bumpy Grater wrote: »

Or maybe somebody under extreme stress and pressure who snapped and needs a bit of support/a break. I don't think parents should hit their kids, but at the same time I can understand why a parent who is exhausted, worn out and stressed might smack a constantly misbehaving child across the legs or on the hand. I wouldn't put them in the same category as parents who physically assault their kids, or call the scumbags or utter cnuts.

I'm fully aware about how stressed out being a carer can be, I've done it myself for 6 years. I cried tears of frustration and often had to leave the room to calm down when things got on top of me.

I wouldn't accept the excuse from my child minder /teacher or carer that they were stressed and that's why they smacked the person I love- and nor would you. Remember the care home in Swinford? The Creche's in Dublin that were exposed on Prime Time?

Regarding punishing a child - we punish a child to teach them better behaviour. That's the point of it.

If you are that stressed, exhausted and worn out and that's why you hit your child you aren't punishing them for the behaviour. You are punishing them because you aren't coping. How does that help the child learn from their mistakes?

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 11-05-2018 11:58AM

Rechuchote wrote: »

Kids nowadays are waaaaay better behaved, politer and nicer than they were when I was growing up in the era of parental violence.

By the way, are those advocating hitting children also advocating leaving the EU? Abandoning violence towards children was an EU requirement.

I would say they're generally the same as always, but the badly behaved ones are even more badly behaved than when I was growing up. Not for the want of a smack, I hasten to add, but because some parents nowadays not only won't parent their kids themselves, but take huge umbrage if anybody else gives out to them or tells them to stop doing something.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 11-05-2018 12:00PM

Neyite wrote: »

I'm fully aware about how stressed out being a carer can be, I've done it myself for 6 years. I cried tears of frustration and often had to leave the room to calm down when things got on top of me.

I wouldn't accept the excuse from my child minder /teacher or carer that they were stressed and that's why they smacked the person I love- and nor would you. Remember the care home in Swinford? The Creche's in Dublin that were exposed on Prime Time?

Regarding punishing a child - we punish a child to teach them better behaviour. That's the point of it.

If you are that stressed, exhausted and worn out and that's why you hit your child you aren't punishing them for the behaviour. You are punishing them because you aren't coping. How does that help the child learn from their mistakes?

Apologies. I meant that if a stressed out family member, trying to care for a parent with dementia while also working fulltime/looking after their own young family, just lost it on one occasion and hit out, I would see that as someone at the end of their tether, not as someone who was a bad person.

Glass fused light · 11-05-2018 12:03PM

kildare lad wrote: »

I agree with you, it should have been nipped in the bud earlier. Its actually affecting his ability to play with the other kids in school, because if he doesnt get to play in goals in the yard, he'll start crying and go off and stand on the corner on his own. I see it as a some parents want an easy life so instead of disciplining them they give them what they want so they'll avoid a confrontation. I'm just of the opinion if a child is being really bold, that a smack on the arse and a good talking to is no harm.

That behaviour should have been resolved a home from how the parents managed the terrible twos onwards. That being said every day can be a new battle and the child can learn quickly how to push a tired parent into submission. I would say these days most smacks are either loss of temper from tired parents or the parents having poor parenting tool. If the smack comes first where the boldness is not risking immediate serious injury or death the parent needs to find a another better way, as even then if the child did not see the consequence of the behaviour the smack won't help.

The kid in your example will be corrected by the other children, he will soon learn that they don't care if he is off in a corner crying

although if he has not figured this out by 10 he may be "special" (and not in a special needs way).

Anyways if we are allowed smacking can we approve one or two legal hand smack (arses being excluded) for the parents of the little darlings who are being ignored as they run a rampaging in public. If you are making an effort normal non smacking rules apply.

Neyite · 11-05-2018 12:08PM

Marlon Bumpy Grater wrote: »

Apologies. I meant that if a stressed out family member, trying to care for a parent with dementia while also working fulltime/looking after their own young family, just lost it on one occasion and hit out, I would see that as someone at the end of their tether, not as someone who was a bad person.

I wouldn't demonise a person in those circumstances, but I'd see the loss of control a catalyst for immediate change -whether that's a break, or respite care or further resources or support to be given. That opinion of mine would change if it was more than a once-off, if it was habitual and excused as stress each time, would you agree?

Glass fused light · 11-05-2018 12:14PM

Marlon Bumpy Grater wrote: »

Apologies. I meant that if a stressed out family member, trying to care for a parent with dementia while also working fulltime/looking after their own young family, just lost it on one occasion and hit out, I would see that as someone at the end of their tether, not as someone who was a bad person.

Not a good thing to happen but it's normaly a reflection on the lack of support systems in place and our learned reaction to a mental stressor.
I can remember in my teens, my mam getting a call from neighbour who was a single mom when she just needed someone to put the child to bed. At the time I was all

but looking back I can see why mam was out the door without a problem.

GreeBo · 11-05-2018 12:27PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I was hit as a child to the point of hospitalisation at times. I always said I'd never hit my kids and never have. Been tempted loads of times but usually when I was very stressed or tired. Never did though and my kids are fine, decent people. Kids don't need physical discipline.

And thats awful, but not at all what anyone on here is condoning or encouraging.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-05-2018 12:38PM

Hector Bellend wrote: »

Little Johnny and Little Jenny just need a good crack on the arse every now and then.

As John lennon said. All you need is love and a good crack on the arse.

Think that was Jimmy Saville, no?

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 11-05-2018 01:16PM

Neyite wrote: »

I wouldn't demonise a person in those circumstances, but I'd see the loss of control a catalyst for immediate change -whether that's a break, or respite care or further resources or support to be given. That opinion of mine would change if it was more than a once-off, if it was habitual and excused as stress each time, would you agree?

Absolutely.

GreeBo · 11-05-2018 02:12PM

LirW wrote: »

The argument of "centuries of smacking" is pretty much invalid, People didn't have the parenting knowledge back then, smacking was passed down from one generation to another, "because it was the done thing". It's 2018, we know better now.

I got my portion of smacks too, did it do me any good? No, I was a pretty sensitive child and I'm terrified to this day of any motions with arms and hands to close to my head. So bad that I have a reflex to hide behind my arms. I didn't understand why my mother would want to hurt me.
Would you accept your partner giving you a smack when you behave like a little sh1t? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't, so why is it any different with kids?

Thats handy that you can discount an argument without giving any facts to back up your point!

Its frankly ridiculous that you can discount thousands of years of corporal punishment based on a couple of years without it.

And your single experience is irrelevant to this argument Im afraid, I can find plenty of examples where lack of corporal punishment has lead to adults who are afraid of their kids behaviour.

Disciplining Children AKA Back in my day they behaved.

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