Tomas O Se says Leinster Football is a Joke

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Is there a question in this post? What are we meant to be discussing?

People are saying Leinster football is a joke uncompetitive at the moment, but other proviences particulalry Munster have been more uncompetitive for longer. Discuss whatever you want. Thats the point Im making.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But how come, this decade, counties with small dispersed populations like Mayo and to a lesser extend Donegal, have been able to go
toe to toe with Dublin, while the likes of Meath and Kildare suck ?

There are unique factors to Donegal and Mayo. Its something you hear directed at counties like Meath and kildare, but Mayo have a special unique feature thats driving them to all these finals that no other county in Ireland has .The 3 reasons why Mayo have suceeded are below.


Regard Donegal , they had the most charismatic, innovative, brillant manager of this era. Like Loughane in 95 or Griffin in 96 or Heffernan in 74, Donegal is another example of one individual capturing a counties attention and county players fans all united under 1 charismatic brillant manager. Donegal had the best manager of his generation.

Mayo have a couple of reasons , one is particularly unique to Mayo.
1 Mayo have spent longer in division 1 then any other county in Ireland. Mayo have been in division 1 since 1996 , 1997.

2 Mayo seem to produce , have a conveyor belt of inter county managers similar to kerry and Dublin. Some of them are not great, but they do produce alot of inter county managers. For example in the last 20 years Mayo managers at inter county level eg John Maughan, John O Mahoney, James Horan, Stephen Rochford, Kevin McStay, Peter Forde, Pat Holmes, Noel Connelly.

In comparsion Galway have produced very few inter county managers of any decent standard. Who is the greatest Galway football manager ? Kevin Walsh, Liam Sammon, they have never had one. Look at us in Meath we dont produce many inter county managers. Outiside O Brien O Dowd and McEntee, name a Meath man who has managed an inter county team in this decade. I think Offaly had a Meath man a couple of years ago . And in the 00s Coyle managed Monaghan and Hayes Carlow. Meath Galway and Cork dont produce as many inter county managers as say Kerry Dublin Mayo or even kildare. Carew, Glen Ryan and luke Dempsey all kildare men have managed inter county teams in this decade outside kildare. Mayo always seem to have a good quality manager in charge eg O'Mahoney in 89, Maughan in 96 97, Horan in 2012 , 2013 and Rochford in 2016, 2017.

3 And the third reason and the major factor in driving Mayo to all these finals.

Mayo have produced quality footballers and top class managers for the last 15 years. But whats driving Mayo to 4 All Ireland finals in 6 years, which has never happened before ( A county losing 4 finals in 6 years). To keep coming back is remarkable and you have to admire their bravery. But its become so important to Mayo people to win Sam. Its like the county, the players, the fans are on a crusade to win Sam. In that so many times you hear Mayo fans ' before I die I want to see Mayo win Sam'. It means so much to Mayo people. Winning Sam would mean more to them then any other county. Its become a counties dream, almost obession to end the famine and break the curse. Thats what driving these brave Mayo footballers.


I think if Mayo had won in 2012 or 13 they wouldnt have reached the last 2 finals. I know its hard to prove. But Mayo quest for Sam is being driven by the passion and hunger of a county desire to win an All Ireland that has become so important to every man woman and child in Mayo. Very admirable passion. No other county in Ireland has this sort of unique experience that Mayo have of losing 9 finals in 25 years , that is unprecedented, and leading to Mayo teams drive to end the famine of 70 plus years and break the curse.

Lu Tze wrote: »

You are very much cherry picking your stats. Cork have won the all Ireland in the last decade which none of other teams in Leinster outside Dublin have done, and the stats are skewed as there are twice as many countries in Leinster than in Munster.

Facts, these are facts, I am not skewing any facts, below is a summary of Munster counties sucess rate outside the big Two and kerrys titles per decade.That is not skewing anything. Below are facts.

1 Tipp havent won a Munster title in 80 years
2 Clare have won 1 Munster title in 90 years
3 limerick havent won a Munster title in 120 years
4 Waterford havent won a Munster title in 120 years also their only Munster title.
5 The Munster championship has been won by Kerry or Cork every year since 1923 with the exception of victories by Tipperary in 1935 and Clare in 1992.
6 Watterford havent beaten Kerry in Munster championship in 60 years.
7 Tipperary havent beaten Kerry in the Munster championship in 91 years. 8 Limerick havent beaten Kerry in the Munster championship in 120 years. 9 Clare have beaten Kerry once in the Munster championship in 80 years.

10
1920s: 6 for Kerry (1923-24-25-26-27-29)
1930s: 9 for Kerry (1930-31-32-33-34-36-37-38-39)
1940s: 7 for Kerry (1940-41-42-44-46-47-48)
1950s: 7 for Kerry (1950-51-53-54-55-58-59)
1960s: 8 for Kerry (1960-61-62-63-64-65-68-69)
1970s: 7 for Kerry (1970-72-75-76-77-78-79)
1980s: 6 for Kerry (1980-81-82-84-85-86)
1990s: 5 for Cork (1990-93-94-95-99)
2000s: 6 for Kerry (2000-01-03-04-05-07)
2010s: 7 for Kerry (2010-11-13-14-15-16-17)

rossie1977 wrote: »

Clearly Dublin are far ahead of everyone else but Kildare are building a nice team and should be competitive in a few years, meath are decent and would probably give any team outside Dublin/Kerry or Tyrone a game in the qualifiers.
.

This has been a dreadful decade for Meath and kildare.

In this decade kildare have reached only 1 leinster final. They have had 3 relegations in 5 years. They currently have lost 10 games in a row. They have lost their last 6 games in Croke Park in the last 3 years. They havent won a match in Croke Park in the championship in 5 years. They have only won in Croke Park 3 times in the championship in this decade. They have lost their last 35 of their last 40 matchs in Croke Park. They havent won a leinster senior semi final in Croke Park in 9 years since 2009.

11 And they have had some of the worst defeats in their history in the last decade, record defeats to Dublin and Kerry. Two defeats v Dublin recently are their two worst defeats in the leinster championship in 100 years for kildare football. kildares 19 point defeat to Dublin in 2015 is kildares worst defeat to Dublin since 1897 ( Dublin 5 -18 Kildare 0-14) . The 7 goal hammering v Kerry in 2015 is the worst defeat for kildare in the championship outside leinster in 100 years ( Kerry 7 -16 Kildare 0-10). Other bad defeats (Cork 2-19 0-12 in 2012).
( In terms of the leinster senior championship, the stats show kildare are not the second most sucessful team in the leinster championship in this decade which most people would probaly believe. They are the fourth. Dublin r number 1 of course with 7 senior titles, Meath r second with 4 leinster final appearances and 1 title, Westmeath have 2 leinster final appearances and kildare have 1 leinster final appearances along with Louth who also have 1.)

It is also Meaths worst decade since the 1920s, if Meath dont reach an All Ireland in the next 2 years it will be first decade since 1920s that has happened. Meaths lose to Dublin in 2014 is Meath worst lose to Dublin since the 1920s. There was bad loses in 95 ( but Meath were ahead with ten mins to go), early 60s and 1955 ( but that Meath team was overhil in 55 after winning the final with the oldest team ever in 54) . 2014 was first time in hundred years a Meath v Dublin match was over by half time. Meath have also spent 12 years outside division 1 . And had their first loses in the championship ever to Tyrone Armagh and famously to Westmeath in 2015.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And Wembley, Stade De France and Mars since we are talking pure gash.

Why is it when you mention the uncompetiveness of leinster which is a genuinie and real concern the Dubs get all touchy and take it as some sort of go at the Dubs. I can give you 20 reasons why Meath have declined and none of them have anything to Dublin. Meath and kildares decline have nothing to do with Dublin.

I remeber in the 80s and 90s when the Dubs werent so touchy and u could have a discussion and the crack about anything with them. Now if you Dont say brillant things about their team and if u bring up all the other problems in football, the Dubs get very touchy. We r entitled to ask questions. The same way the Dubs were asking questions between 1996 to 2010 when they couldnt get to a final. Just because everything is rosey in the Dublin garden we dont all have to say its greats for us all in leinster. This is the worst decade least competitive leinster championship in 130 years . That is a fact. There should not be any issue about talking about the crisis in leinster football.

Dublin are the one of the greatest teams ever. But other counties in leisnter and throughout the country eg Down Armagh Galway Derry Cork are having their worst decade in generations. There shouldnt be an issue or problem about talking about this.

rossie1977 wrote:

Ulster final was played in Leinster (croke park) for a number of years so why is it so ludicrous exactly.

rossie1977 wrote:

It would ensure a neutral venue and 38k in Thurles creates a better atmosphere than in croke park

I think you have a fair point about taking Dubs out of Croker. But a leinster final in Thurles. I dont know if that is a runner. As a Meath man I want to play Dublin in Croker not Navan or Tullamore. But there should be a 30000 stadium in leinster. A stadium built in Tullamore or Athlone which could take in Munster hurling Connacht footbal games and big qualifier matchs . A leinster final in 35000 stadium in Athlone or Tullamore would be ideal. But aint going to happen.

What I would do. And you have to make sure ur not penalising Dublin eitheir. But all leinster q final and semi finals outside Croker should be considered. And Dublin should play all their league matchs in Parnell Park. Whoever decided that Dublin should play league matchs in Croker again it was a great idea for Dublin. Dublin moved back to Croker in the league in early part of this decade. And from that moment Dublin have been almost unbeaten in Croker. Playing all league matchs at home in Croker is a help to Dubs. You have to be careful not penalise them. But for me playing league matchs in Parnell Park is a runner. But I doubt the Dubs will go back. Again it must be said Dublin have a golden generation of players great managers and serious volunteer work being done at ground level across the capital are reasons they have suceeded . But moving them from Croker for league games I think that makes sense . Its a serious advantage having basically all championship matchs in Croker and all home league matchs in Croker.

Poor_old_gill wrote:

Meath and Kildare have fallen off a ridiculous amount- they have really gone to sh*t.

Poor_old_gill wrote:

I know Dublin have an awful lot in their favour and thats fine but jeez its embarrassing how crap Meath have become and how crap Kilare became (although they have improved).

Poor_old_gill wrote:

Meath lost to Cork and Tipp this year and would def lose to Kerry so they would prob be number 4 in Munster- theres a need to address the over funding that Dublin have had but some counties in Leinster need to look closer to home as well.

What about Laois Offaly Derry Wexford Down Armagh Cork and Galway ( I know Galway had a good league but the next two championships will tell us where Galway are, but up to this years championship this has been Galways worst decade in generations).
Down lost 15 games in a row recently, next year Down r in Div 3. Offaly are permanently in div 3 or 4. Laois are in div 4 this spring, Derry are in div 4 next year. And so are Wexford. Armagh have spent 3 years in div 3 recently. That hasnt happened to Armagh since the the 60s. Armagh won Ulster titles in 70s 80s 90s and 00s. This will be first decade in half century they havent won a provincial title if they dont this year or next year. Cork are also at an all time low. Its extraordinary how many counties who were so sucessful so recently have reached all time lows together.

Yes Meath have being crap, or inconsitent would be a better word. But I dont know how much kildare have improved in that they have lost their last 11 matchs in a row and lost 6 games in Croker in over 2 years. People might be shocked to hear kildare have actually being the 4th most sucessful county in the leinster championship so far this deacde.

I have feeling O Neill might go this year, coachs dont really make good managers. And Glen Ryan might take over. He did a good job with longford. And he has the golden touch with kildare. kildare have been in 4 finals at all levels in 90 year, two of them involved Ryan one as senior captain in 98 and second one as under 21 manager in 00s. Ryan was proper warrior as a player. And one of my favourite players from that era. Ryan with Doyle and Earley as selectors could bring kildare on because they do have some good young talent. But I dont think they have improved much recently when you look at their actual record. They came close to some teams in div 1, but Mayo Tyrones Dublin and Kerrys are playing at 70%, in the league. Those counties are trying to peak in August, while Kildare and Galway and every other county has to peak twice in a year, once in the league and second in the championship. And kildare and Galway were probaly taking the league at near to 90 or even 100%. Look at how Roscommon kildare in 2013 Derry and Cork in recent years 5 or 6 years had similar leagues to Galway but all followed up with dreadful championships. We wouldnt know Galways true worth til mid summer.

It seems to me and its only my opinion that the Dubs have gone very defensive when anyone mentions the state of leinster football or football in general. I think they see it as having a dig at Dublins credentials as a great team. It is definitely not. You can talk and anaylsis the state of leinster football and say it has never been as poor. That in no way takes away one bit from the greatness of this Dublin team. We can say Mayo are a brillant team but until they win Sam they are a flawed one. We can talk about the demise of strong football counties but none of this impacts of Dublin greatness or place in history.

Why because it's all about the titles. In golf your greatness is judged on how many majors you can win. The same in tennis how many Wimbledons you can win. In soccer its how premier leagues or European cups you can win. In football its how many Sam Maguires you lift. Dublin have won a 3 in row and 5 in total and they should win more on the way. There place in history is certain and there is widespread recognition by everyone in the gaa world that this Dublin team is one of the greatest teams ever and if they win 4 in a row they will be second greatest and if they win 5 in a row or 9 titles in total they are the greatest. And some people believe they are the greatest ever already. So Dubs dont have to get so touchy. Everyone accepts the brillance of this Dublin team. But that doesnt mean we cannot ask questions when we see other issues eg the state of leinster.

When Dublin didnt reach a final in 16 years the Dubs were asking questions. And for me I actually find the Dublin response surprising. If Meath or Cork or Down or kildare or Armagh are brought up, the general reaction in Dublin is basically its your own fault , hard luck. And Mayo and Donegal are always mentioned and it is said well if Mayo can do it , why cannot u guys. Nothing to see here its your own fault your in the mess u r. No mention that Donegal had a charismatic brillant best manager of his generation or that Mayo everyone in Mayo man woman and child are on passionate crusade almost to end the famine break the curse. Winning an All Ireland means more to Mayo then any other county. Mayo have unique driving factors pushing them to finals.

Thats fair enough. There is truth to that. It is our own fault I can give u 20 reasons why Meath have declined. And not one mention of Dublin. But when Meath teams were beating Dublin teams year in year out in the 80s and 90s, and Dublin couldnt beat kerry teams in 70s 80s and 00s and Dublin teams couldnt beat Ulster teams like Donegal Derry Down Tyrone and Armagh in 90s and 00s. And Dublin went from 96 to 2010 without reaching final. I have to say the GAA in general didn't turn their back on Dublin and didnt say its your own fault, hard luck. In the early 00s after defeats to kildare loais and Westmeath The Dubs got plenty of support when allot of people accepted we needed a strong Dublin. And when Costello wrote that report which set out Dublins future the gaa backed Dublin and GAA were supportive of the Dubs coz they realised the importance of a strong Dublin. It wouls be great if Dublin would now recognise the importance of a strong leinster championship. Just even discussing it without getting so defensive would be a good start. The fact is GAA is made up amateurs. And the true spirit of amateurism is we are all part of a community, a GAA community and we should try and make sure that always remains so.

Its in Dublins future interest that there is a more competitive leinster and strong counties like Galway Down come back to the fore. We have to be fair to the Dubs also. When kerry and kilkenny were winning multiple titles questions of finances were not mentioned. So we have to be fair to the Dubs. But we also should be able to talk about finances and Dublin and it is something that is being talked about in GAA circles up and down the country. But it has got very little attention in the mainstream media. There is the odd article and particularly Mckenna talking about it. But I do find it strange the Sunday Game which loves contervesey has never mentioned the Dubs and their financial clout. That is a strange one

But let me be clear Dublins sucess is down to a golden generation of players brillant managers and an army of volunteers coaching in clubs across the capital. We can mention the finances in that more can be done for other counties. But if we mention it doesnt take away from the achievements of this great Dublin team. And their greatness is accepted widespread in GAA world.

The issue I have is what is coming down the tracks. And its not a money issue its a population issue. Dublin should dip in the 2020s. They will remain strong but shouldn't be as dominate. There is a consensus out there that kilkenny and kerry were dominate nationwide for decades. This is false.When kerry or kilkenny had great teams afterwards they dipped. Then kerry particularly would pick up an All Ireland now and again between great teams eg 1997 2014.

After kerrys great 4 in a row team in the 30s kerry dippped, after kerrys greatest ever team in late 70s early 80s, kerry went 11 years without Sam. After Meaths greatest teams ever s Meath have declined. After Wexford 14 to 18, Galway 64 65 66 , Cavan 40s 50s all.had great teams and all the counties declined or dipped after sucess. After Tipperary had their greatest team in early 60s with 4 All Ireland wins the following decade Tipp had a nighmare period and it was not til 1987 they returned to the top of the table. Kilkenny have a dipped a little since 4 in a row but only for Cody they would have dropped more.

So we should see Dublin decline a bit when the great team break up and Cluxton Connolly and Brogan retire. If Dublin continue to dominate like they do now on a national scale in 2020s 2030s then that would be unusual. If we see more three in a row four in a row Dublin 8 out of 10 All Ireland in 2020s and 2030s then we are looking at something that is out of the normal.

I think a issue could be population. In the next 20 30 years we will population growing in Dublin. We will see a masive growth in age group 12 to 18. I think 400000 will in secondary schools for the first time. The Dublin team is very popular and you could see a massive increase in numbers playing gaa in Dublin. You are already seen across the capital 100s of young players being coached by all the great Dublin clubs. And that is admirable. Also u see suburbia middle class gaelgoir Dubs ( alot of them with country parents) turning on mass to GAA. Even Dalkey Bonos parish is winning an All Ireland club title, even 15 years ago that was unthinkable. Its a perfect storm brewing down the line for Dublin for future sucess. Even kildare and Meath are becoming football nurserys for Dublin as the population increase in both thoae counties is having no positive impact on GAA there.

What you could see is a conveyor belt of inter county talent the likes we have never seen before coming down the tracks. The only thing that is different from this great Dublin team and other great football teams is the strenght of depth of panel. Never in the history of football have we seen the depth of a panel that Dublin have currently. Dublin won the All Ireland last year with their greatest forward of the last 35 years and one of their greatest ever Bernard Brogan on the bench. Also on the bench was Connolly, probably the most talented Dublin footballer ever and Flynn the best wing forward I have ever seen and Mcauley former footballer of the year also on the bench. You basically had nearly 4 former footballers of the year on the Dublin bench. Now that is unprecedented. The great kerry team of 70s and 80s did not have that sort of talent on the bench..The Meath teams of 80s and 90s had one supersub and that was it eg Mattie Mcabe Jody Devine. The same you could say for Great Galway Offaly Down Armgh Dublin teams of the past.

I cannot think of any team that won Sam with so much talent on the bench. Dublin basically have two teams of intercounty players at the moment. If Dublin entered a second team they would compete well and could reach a leinster final at least. A second Dublin team won the Bryne Cup last year. Lets say this population increase leads to more conveyor belt of talent. Dublin having 3 or 4 or 5 teams inter county standard teams of players , this could happen. Look at how Small basically a brillant inter county player appears on the scene.Or how Callaghan who looks like Dublin Jimmy Barry Murphy appears on the team. After having 3 of the greatest Dublin forwards ever recently, Callaghan has that much talent and promise he could become the greatest Dublin player since Heffernan. If Dublin continue to produce such talent throughout the next 20 years or so the All Irelands will surely follow by the bucketload.

And if this domination continues this is where it will bite Dublin. You will see a lack of interest where we could see an All Ireland semi final like we had in 1982 when 15000 turned up to see kerry and Dublin. When it starts to hit GAA confers the GAA will then act and Colm O Rourke much ridiculed idea of two Dublin teams could happen. Dublin wouldnt be split but you could see a Dublin A team and Dublin B team play in the championship. Penalties against Dublin and other issues will arise.
So its in Dublins interest to see a stronger leinster championship. Its in Dublins interest to talk about strong counties in decline. To be defensive is not the way I knew the Dubs would act in 70s 80s and 90s and 00s. And simply put when Dublin won leinster in 1955 1958 1974 1984 1989 1992 2002, when they won a leinster title back then it was celebrated like an All Ireland win, it meant so much to the Dubs. Now the Dubs have to almost force themselves to cheer another Delaney cup victory. Its a pity , the next generation of Dubs might never feel the passion the tension and magic of a proper Meath v Dublin leinster final. A competitive Meath play v Dubs and before kick off no one is sure who will win , Dublin or Meath. That would be a pity.

It must be said also, that we need to be fair to the Dubs. This is not Dublins fault. Their sucess is down to talent and hard work by player managers and underage trainers and coachs. Fair play to them. But if you have a leinster championship like it is at the moment continuing forevermore, thats in no ones interest.

Of course the Dubs can keep saying its your own fault look at Mayo. But just to discuss the issues in football doesnt lessen the greatness of this team and in the long term its in Dublins own interest to see a stronger leinster championship and strong football teams nationwide. Imagine in 2025 Dublin v Down final or in 2027 A Dublin v Cork final or in 2030 a Dublin v Meath All Ireland final where Down Cork and Meath have a genuine chance of beaten Dublin. That would be great for football but also great for Dublin.

But sure what do I know Im just one of those bitter Meath smelly ranchers what would we know. Its all our own fault. But it was also all Dublins own fault when they reached no final in 16 years. The GAA community supported the Dubs then. Dublin ask not what the GAA can do for you but what can u do for the GAA. Or simply at least discuss and at least talk about football problems without getting so defensive. We need to see more of that world famous Dublin charm and crack and not being ao bloody serious and defensive .