8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

dudara · 05-05-2018 3:42pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Rape crisis centre has revealed only 12 cases of rape pregnancies last ten years. Its very rare. Most kept kids . Its not a major issue and should not be used
as a reason to introduce abortion in a widespread fashion

I agree with you that we should not legislate for a minority. But that’s as far as I go.

I believe we need to legislate for ALL women. The proposed legislation strikes a good balance IMO by allowing abortion freely up to 12 weeks, and in special cases thereafter.

Timberrrrrrrr · 05-05-2018 3:42pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Valid point but its still very rare. Why was abortion not an option ? Were they imprisioned ?

Here's a long list of rare conditions

https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/diseases-by-category/12/blood-diseases

Should we stop all treatment for them because they are rare?

You may not think of terminating a pregnancy as treatment but to the woman who's is pregnant it may be the only option left for her.

Nettle Soup · 05-05-2018 3:45pm

A vile No poster has just gone up today beside our local national school.
I think the No folks are hugely underestimating the impact these posters will have.
Only idiots will make their mind up based on posters alone but I think the No posters will push more people to the Yes side.

PlaneSpeeking · 05-05-2018 3:46pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

AtomicHorror wrote: »

This is a total strawman and one you've been corrected on before. It is not about "respectability" when it comes to rape. It is about whether you force a woman to carry to term the child of someone who brutally traumatized them. It is about whether you force them to endure the automatic increase in risk to their life and health for a decision they never made, and a risk they never consented to take.

I know of nobody who takes the position you ascribe to the pro-choice side.

If you keep repeating this misrepresentation then you are, frankly, a liar.

Rape crisis centre has revealed only 12 cases of rape pregnancies last ten years. Its very rare. Most kept kids . Its not a major issue and should not be used
as a reason to introduce abortion in a widespread fashion

How do you feel about women being denied medical treatment when they are 1000% not pregnant but our laws ignore their pain?

Sofiztikated · 05-05-2018 3:49pm

Nettle Soup wrote: »

A vile No poster has just gone up today beside our local national school.
I think the No folks are hugely underestimating the impact these posters will have.
Only idiots will make their mind up based on posters alone but I think the No posters will push more people to the Yes side.

As awful as it sounds, I want to see how vicious the Save/Retain side will go. Let them show their face.

And continue to combat them with actual facts, actual victims, and actual problems due to the 8th.

Hannibal_Smith · 05-05-2018 3:53pm

wexie wrote: »

I think this referendum and accompanying propaganda battle is effecting a lot of friendships and perhaps even relationships (to a lesser extent hopefully).

These arguments seem to have a tendency to get pretty heated.

I wouldn't lose a friend over it, or have a heated argument about it. I was just really surprised to hear the language used.

Ave Sodalis · 05-05-2018 4:02pm

Well this is somewhat amusing, somewhat scary, and a whole lot cultish...

https://www.facebook.com/ROSALimerick/videos/185621482084641/?hc_ref=ARSiuYjHgMcNMuaciABebTPPeZmGKNcAsi-nfosq59n9qeUoK4iwiXUtUQ_3HJDDxT0

January · 05-05-2018 4:04pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Valid point but its still very rare. Why was abortion not an option ? Were they imprisioned ?

They couldn't afford to travel, they didn't have the right paperwork to travel, they couldn't find someone else to look after their own children so they could travel, they couldn't get the time off work to travel... There's just some of the reasons why abortion isn't an option for a lot of people.

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:07pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

As awful as it sounds, I want to see how vicious the Save/Retain side will go. Let them show their face.

And continue to combat them with actual facts, actual victims, and actual problems due to the 8th.

What facts ? Is just stating you have 'facts' an argument now?

PhoenixParker · 05-05-2018 4:08pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

What facts ? Is just stating you have 'facts' an argument now?

I am not sure where Nettle Soup is getting their figures from, they are not what the Rape Crisis themselves have in their own report.

This is the 2013 report for the Rape Crisis Centre which on page 24 says they counselled 75 women who became pregnant as a result of rape in that year alone.

http://www.rcni.ie/wp-content/uploads/RCNI-National-Statistics-2013.pdf

And that's only the people they counselled.

Taking into account the age of consent, one can also look at the number of women who give birth before the age of 17 (about 100 a year according to the CSO) and the number attending for abortion in the UK in the under 17 age bracket (somewhere between 10 and 66).

There are several women a week facing the issue of pregnancy as a result of rape. Many of them do choose not to abort, but the idea that they should be forced to go through with the pregnancy is abhorrent.

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:09pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Abortion isn't available to rape victims here

If a woman is suicidal she has a right to an abortion. Most rape victins are suicidal. The whole rape issue is a Trojan horse for abortion on demand. I know a man who is the child of rape. His mother decided to have him. If she didn't England was an option.
The numbers of rape pregnancies are so small that it should not figure in this debate and before you beat your breast and say " its important to the 12 women who needed it " we still allow booze despite it killing thousands prematurely every year among other things this state tolerates

05-05-2018 4:10pm

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Well this is somewhat amusing, somewhat scary, and a whole lot cultish...

https://www.facebook.com/ROSALimerick/videos/185621482084641/?hc_ref=ARSiuYjHgMcNMuaciABebTPPeZmGKNcAsi-nfosq59n9qeUoK4iwiXUtUQ_3HJDDxT0

Yes that will really bring along the floating voter. :rolleyes:

The no campaign is quite amazingly bad sometimes.

Ave Sodalis · 05-05-2018 4:12pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

If a woman is suicidal she has a right to an abortion. Most rape victins are suicidal. The whole rape issue is a Trojan horse for abortion on demand. I know a man who is the child of rape. His mother decided to have him. If she didn't England is an option.

Good for his mother that she decided to have him. It was also nice that she had the means to go to England if she didn't choose to have him. How exactly is the 8th stopping your so called Trojan horse scenario though, given that you acknowledge England is an option for many people?

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:15pm

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Good for his mother that she decided to have him. It was also nice that she had the means to go to England if she didn't choose to have him. How exactly is the 8th stopping your so called Trojan horse scenario though, given that you acknowledge England is an option for many people?

Its stopping it here . Only a fool would say that having abortion available here would not increase numbers of women having abortions. Its like saying that having more pubs and off licenses doesn't increase alcholism

Ave Sodalis · 05-05-2018 4:17pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Yes that will really bring along the floating voter. :rolleyes:

The no campaign is quite amazingly bad sometimes.

When all else fails, bring out the Catholic guilt. The communion girls were an nice touch, I'm sure they understood what was going on. Maybe they should have left the alter boys at home though. No use in bring them out when you're trying to be morally superior, it might remind people of what certain members of their gang do to living, breathing children.

amcalester · 05-05-2018 4:18pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

If a woman is suicidal she has a right to an abortion. Most rape victins are suicidal. The whole rape issue is a Trojan horse for abortion on demand. I know a man who is the child of rape. His mother decided to have him. If she didn't England was an option.
The numbers of rape pregnancies are so small that it should not figure in this debate and before you beat your breast and say " its important to the 12 women who needed it " we still allow booze despite it killing thousands prematurely every year among other things this state tolerates

Most rape victims are suicidal?

Can you back that up? You’ve made a few claims here today, any evidence to back them up?

Particularly that most rape victims are suicudal and on the number of pregnancies resulting from rape.

Sofiztikated · 05-05-2018 4:18pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

When you scrape a baby-arms ,legs,head-yes it is scraped or sucked out=dont kid yourselves-it recoils/try to defend herself/himself. This is the reality of abortion. Dont hide from it

ASISEEIT wrote: »

If a woman is suicidal she has a right to an abortion. Most rape victins are suicidal. The whole rape issue is a Trojan horse for abortion on demand. I know a man who is the child of rape. His mother decided to have him. If she didn't England is an option.

ASISEEIT wrote: »

What facts ? Is just stating you have 'facts' an argument now?

Well firstly, you are stating incorrectly what an abortion entails, at 12 weeks.

Secondly, you are a hypocrite, stating that if she wanted an abortion, she could go to England. Why, if you believe what you say, is his life worth less in a different country?

I'd also like to see you statistics for claiming most rape victims are suicidal. And also question the Love Both theory then, as forcing a woman, which is now suicidal, to continue with a pregnancy doesn't seem like loving either.

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:19pm

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I am not sure where Nettle Soup is getting their figures from, they are not what the Rape Crisis themselves have in their own report.

This is the 2013 report for the Rape Crisis Centre which on page 24 says they counselled 75 women who became pregnant as a result of rape in that year alone.

http://www.rcni.ie/wp-content/uploads/RCNI-National-Statistics-2013.pdf

And that's only the people they counselled.

Taking into account the age of consent, one can also look at the number of women who give birth before the age of 17 (about 100 a year according to the CSO) and the number attending for abortion in the UK in the under 17 age bracket (somewhere between 10 and 66).

There are several women a week facing the issue of pregnancy as a result of rape. Many of them do choose not to abort, but the idea that they should be forced to go through with the pregnancy is abhorrent.

Claiming rape and actually being raped are two very different things. The child growing who will recoil in self defence as its scraped out is not to figure in your thinking at all ? The innocent?
If a woman was genuinely raped let her go to England as there is no definitive way of proving she was ? Is there ?

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:21pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Well firstly, you are stating incorrectly what an abortion entails, at 12 weeks.

Secondly, you are a hypocrite, stating that if she wanted an abortion, she could go to England. Why, if you believe what you say, is his life worth less in a different country?

I'd also like to see you statistics for claiming most rape victims are suicidal. And also question the Love Both theory then, as forcing a woman, which is now suicidal, to continue with a pregnancy doesn't seem like loving either.

If a woman claims she is suicidal she can get an abortion but you are right i have no definite statistics on it. Rape is a Trojan horse for the abortion on demand brigade

PhoenixParker · 05-05-2018 4:22pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Its stopping it here . Only a fool would say that having abortion available here would not increase numbers of women having abortions. Its like saying that having more pubs and off licenses doesn't increase alcholism

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1363/psrh.12015

No strong evidence that restrictions in abortion access lead to reduced abortion rates.

Abortion incidence can also decline if women who want abortions are unable to obtain them; abortion restrictions have the potential to reduce abortion incidence by impeding access to services. Between 2008 and 2011, some 24 states enacted 106 abortion restrictions.2 However, no strong evidence exists that these restrictions were the main factor behind the decline in abortion.

The situation in many parts of the US is similar to here, i.e. where a woman has to spend money and undertake an inconvenient journey to access abortion.

When they study it, it doesn't have a clear impact.

Wrongway1985 · 05-05-2018 4:23pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

What facts ? Is just stating you have 'facts' an argument now?

Comment is clearly tongue in cheek in relation to No posters (which poster quoted) which a number have statements on them that simply aren't fact at all.

Hmmm...proven facts v illogical reason I wonder who I'd back there? :pac:

wexie · 05-05-2018 4:25pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Claiming rape and actually being raped are two very different things.

So what are you claiming? That these women went to the rape crisis centre to claim they were raped so they could avail of an abortion?

And the rape crisis center didn't realise this?

ASISEEIT wrote: »

The child growing who will recoil in self defence as its scraped out is not to figure in your thinking at all ?

No because that is not what happens before 12 weeks

ASISEEIT wrote: »

If a woman was genuinely raped let her go to England as there is no definitive way of proving she was ? Is there ?

.......love both ey? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sofiztikated · 05-05-2018 4:26pm

PhoenixParker wrote: »

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1363/psrh.12015

No strong evidence that restrictions in abortion access lead to reduced abortion rates.

The situation in many parts of the US is similar to here, i.e. where a woman has to spend money and undertake an inconvenient journey to access abortion.

When they study it, it doesn't have a clear impact.

Look at Poland, and it's harsh restrictions. Officially 1000 happen a year in the country, but up to 150,000 happens regardless.

Wrongway1985 · 05-05-2018 4:32pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Its stopping it here . Only a fool would say that having abortion available here would not increase numbers of women having abortions. Its like saying that having more pubs and off licenses doesn't increase alcholism

Of course they will increase as it stands the figure is 0 legal abortions taking place. Illegal abortions (as things stand) will be accounted for along with the 10 women per day who travel outside the country to have one. Only a fool would suggest abortion can be as addictive as alcoholic beverages.

Sofiztikated · 05-05-2018 4:34pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Claiming rape and actually being raped are two very different things. The child growing who will recoil in self defence as its scraped out is not to figure in your thinking at all ? The innocent?
If a woman was genuinely raped let her go to England as there is no definitive way of proving she was ? Is there ?

So you are literally saying:

So you were raped, put through a physical, emotional and mental wringer, and not only that, but became pregnant as a result? Feels bad n all, get the boat though, it's probably better than the plane, what with you having had a medical procedure and all.

amcalester · 05-05-2018 4:38pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

So you are literally saying:

So you were raped, put through a physical, emotional and mental wringer, and not only that, but became pregnant as a result? Feels bad n all, get the boat though, it's probably better than the plane, what with you having had a medical procedure and all.

Love Boat

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:40pm

Rape is a red herring on this issue.

amcalester · 05-05-2018 4:43pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Rape is a red herring on this issue.

Not for the women affected.

Sofiztikated · 05-05-2018 4:43pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Rape is a red herring on this issue.

Please do continue.

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:44pm

wexie wrote: »

So what are you claiming? That these women went to the rape crisis centre to claim they were raped so they could avail of an abortion?

And the rape crisis center didn't realise this?

No because that is not what happens before 12 weeks

.......love both ey? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Legislation provides for abortion after 12 weeks. You do know this? Please explain in detail how abortions are carried out. Im not sure you have a clue

kylith · 05-05-2018 4:45pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Rape is a red herring on this issue.

And the 2 pregnancies a day diagnosed with FFA, or the thousands of women annually who are denied a say in their medical treatment?

amcalester · 05-05-2018 4:46pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Legislation provides for abortion after 12 weeks. You do know this? Please explain in detail how abortions are carried out. Im not sure you have a clue

Abortion after 12 weeks is a red herring.

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:47pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Please do continue.

No. Its obvious . Numbers tiny but the pro suck out the baby and put in a miniature body bag brigade want to focus on less than .001% pregnancies so we can go ahead and slaughter 20% of babies like they do in Uk.

Captain Obvious · 05-05-2018 4:49pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

If a woman is suicidal she has a right to an abortion. Most rape victins are suicidal. The whole rape issue is a Trojan horse for abortion on demand. I know a man who is the child of rape. His mother decided to have him. If she didn't England was an option.
The numbers of rape pregnancies are so small that it should not figure in this debate and before you beat your breast and say " its important to the 12 women who needed it " we still allow booze despite it killing thousands prematurely every year among other things this state tolerates

You seem to be just making up everything you post then backing it up with anecdotal evidence while at the same time dismissing facts and anecdotal evidence of others.

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:51pm

kylith wrote: »

And the 2 pregnancies a day diagnosed with FFA, or the thousands of women annually who are denied a say in their medical treatment?

Ah FFA yes it is another red herring as you won't find a widely acceptable agreement in the medical community on what FFA is. Many kids walking around today who were told they would not survive birth. Furthermore a lot of parents think it more humane to give a child life;name etc instead of abortion

wexie · 05-05-2018 4:51pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Legislation provides for abortion after 12 weeks. You do know this? Please explain in detail how abortions are carried out. Im not sure you have a clue

Sadly I'd have to tell you I've a lot more of a clue then I'd like.

And yes I do know the legislation provides for abortion after 12 weeks, which will likely end up being a very small number.

And I think it's a good thing it allows for that option when needed.

What's your point?

Nettle Soup · 05-05-2018 4:53pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Rape is a red herring on this issue.

The irony. Would you have rape banned from the debate?

amcalester · 05-05-2018 4:54pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Furthermore a lot of parents think it more humane to give a child life;name etc instead of abortion

And they will still be able to do just that after the referendum.

And others who feel differently will have more options than they do now.

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:54pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You seem to be just making up everything you post then backing it up with anecdotal evidence while at the same time dismissing facts and anecdotal evidence of others.

What facts? Somebody came up with a figure of 75 a year rape pregnancies. My figure of 12 is in irish times letters today. Anyway we can all agree that rape pregancies are quite small in the over all scheme of things but to hear the yes side you would think them sizeably proportionate.

January · 05-05-2018 4:56pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

What facts? Somebody came up with a figure of 75 a year rape pregnancies. My figure of 12 is in irish times letters today. Anyway we can all agree that rape pregancies are quite small in the over all scheme of things but to hear the yes side you would think them sizeably proportionate.

So because someone wrote a letter to a newspaper you believe it.

I've some magic beans here, would you like to buy them?

amcalester · 05-05-2018 4:57pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

What facts? Somebody came up with a figure of 75 a year rape pregnancies. My figure of 12 is in irish times letters today. Anyway we can all agree that rape pregancies are quite small in the over all scheme of things but to hear the yes side you would think them sizeably proportionate.

So because the number is small we should ignore it?

Yet you’re the one talking about abortion after 12 weeks. What are those numbers?

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:57pm

amcalester wrote: »

And they will still be able to do just that after the referendum.

And others who feel differently will have more options than they do now.[/quote

There is no agreed definition or prognosis of FFA . If most of you were honest youd admit you never heard term until recently and its still like rape a tiny proportion of births . But hey lets make the womb a dangerous place to be a baby to satisfy 001% of women/men

wexie · 05-05-2018 4:57pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

What facts? Somebody came up with a figure of 75 a year rape pregnancies. My figure of 12 is in irish times letters today. Anyway we can all agree that rape pregancies are quite small in the over all scheme of things but to hear the yes side you would think them sizeably proportionate.

No somebody didn't 'come up' with the figure of 75...someone mentioned the number of 75 and backed it up with e-vi-dence....(if you find that to be too many syl-la-bles just try to sound it out)

That's not quite the same as what you did is it now?

ASISEEIT · 05-05-2018 4:59pm

wexie wrote: »

No somebody didn't 'come up' with the figure of 75...someone mentioned the number of 75 and backed it up with e-vi-dence....(if you find that to be too many syl-la-bles just try to sound it out)

That's not quite the same as what you did is it now?

Ah lets resort to ad hominem attacks and lets spend weeks talking about tiny percentages. Lets ignore the question i asked you to describe the reality of abortion or lets ignore fact that legislation goes beyond 12 weeks.
Lets ignore beating hearts or fact that the abirtionist must count the legs and arms after he/she has done the deed. Lets ignore it. Lets ignore the fact that 99.5% of pregnancies have nothing to do with rape or FFA . Lets not take responsibility for our actions . We are all victims today anyway

January · 05-05-2018 5:03pm

Legislation goes beyond 12 weeks for serious risk to health or life of the mother or with FFA. 8% of abortions happen after 12 weeks with 0.2 percent happening after 20 weeks. Tiny percentages.

Ken. · 05-05-2018 5:05pm

Mod-ASISEEIT do not post in this thread again. Reason-Trolling

Dressing gown · 05-05-2018 5:30pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Its stopping it here . Only a fool would say that having abortion available here would not increase numbers of women having abortions. Its like saying that having more pubs and off licenses doesn't increase alcholism

It would definitely increase the numbers. At the moment it is only those with means that can travel. There are no voters that are squeamish about it but comfort themselves that going to England is an option instead anyway. But I was having a look at abortion stats in Scotland, and the majority of women having abortions are those from deprived backgrounds. So, yes I believe the figures will go up, but those women from deprived backgrounds deserve to have a choice as well and at the moment they don’t and that is wrong.

mohawk · 05-05-2018 5:30pm

In town earlier today. Quite a large number of no campaigners about. One group I saw it was 80% men. Kinda pissed me off if I am honest. Not one of them will ever have a surgical incision made on their genitalia without giving their consent. They will never personally experience health complications as a result of a pregnancy. Very easy the think in absolutes on issues that will not affect you.

I know everyone entitled to their own opinion and all that jazz but it is frustrating sometimes.

amdublin · 05-05-2018 5:39pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I am not sure where Nettle Soup is getting their figures from, they are not what the Rape Crisis themselves have in their own report.

This is the 2013 report for the Rape Crisis Centre which on page 24 says they counselled 75 women who became pregnant as a result of rape in that year alone.

http://www.rcni.ie/wp-content/uploads/RCNI-National-Statistics-2013.pdf

And that's only the people they counselled.

Taking into account the age of consent, one can also look at the number of women who give birth before the age of 17 (about 100 a year according to the CSO) and the number attending for abortion in the UK in the under 17 age bracket (somewhere between 10 and 66).

There are several women a week facing the issue of pregnancy as a result of rape. Many of them do choose not to abort, but the idea that they should be forced to go through with the pregnancy is abhorrent.

Claiming rape and actually being raped are two very different things. The child growing who will recoil in self defence as its scraped out is not to figure in your thinking at all ? The innocent?
If a woman was genuinely raped let her go to England as there is no definitive way of proving she was ? Is there ?

The lack of compassion for women is strong in this one

Dressing gown · 05-05-2018 5:42pm

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Ah lets resort to ad hominem attacks and lets spend weeks talking about tiny percentages. Lets ignore the question i asked you to describe the reality of abortion or lets ignore fact that legislation goes beyond 12 weeks.
Lets ignore beating hearts or fact that the abirtionist must count the legs and arms after he/she has done the deed. Lets ignore it. Lets ignore the fact that 99.5% of pregnancies have nothing to do with rape or FFA . Lets not take responsibility for our actions . We are all victims today anyway

I don’t know if you have the time but if you do you should have a look at the official publications setting out information on abortions in England and Wales and Scotland over the last number of years. Pregnancy tests have advanced to the degree that you can tell if you are pregnant 1/2 weeks after conception-I did (by the way at that stage the pregnancy is classed as 4/5 weeks as it is dated from the first day of your last period). In addition, abortion technology has moved on. The vast majority of abortions are now medical abortions where pills are taken and the Fetus is aborted intact. In addition, the majority of abortions take place under 10 weeks. These figures are driving further and further earlier into pregnancy. I think the earlier abortions are done the better for all involved no? But by making women travel for abortions the opposite occurs. It’s less compassionate. Not more.

You can say you would prefer no abortion. That is your view. But as long as there is sex there will be abortion. Better to regulate how it is happening here than pretend it isn’t happening.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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