8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

erica74 · 01-05-2018 10:46PM

gctest50 wrote: »

Buffer zones are essential - we need them around maternity hospitals here , now

http://www.thejournal.ie/icbr-graphic-imagery-3988089-May2018/

This actually makes my blood boil! These people don't care about anyone, they don't love anyone!

erica74 wrote: »

Imagine being a pregnant woman making your way into your maternity hospital. You're going in for another scan to see if your baby still has a heartbeat. See, you found out recently that your baby will not survive outside of the womb as some of the vital organs have not developed correctly. You are returning to your maternity hospital to see if there's still a heartbeat because until there is no heartbeat, the medical team looking after you can't do anything for you. You are returning to your maternity hospital wondering if today is the day you find out that your baby is dead. You are still foolishly hoping that maybe today the doctor will tell you they made a mistake and the baby is actually fine, a mistake was made. You are torn between that hope and the other side of you, the side that knows the reality. You're processing what feels like 100 different emotions and 1000 different thoughts when, at the entrance to your maternity hospital, you are greeted by gruesome images of foetuses and babies, at who knows what stage of gestation or birth. You begin to question yourself, question everything everyone has said to you about your baby, question everything you have said to yourself about your baby.

Does anyone think that that is right? Does anyone think any person should be subjected to those images, particularly women coming and going from a maternity hospital? Do any of these idiots realise what they are doing when they stand with these images in the most inappropriate places imaginable? LoveBoth??

Repeal the 8th. The current laws are disgusting and cruel and affect everyone, it doesn't matter if you have a willy, this affects you. Educate yourself and vote.

Zubeneschamali · 01-05-2018 10:47PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

If my female friend was beyond distraught and wanted an abortion i would envisage not arguing at all. Yes.

You would not try and talk a friend out of murdering her own child. You would even help. Appalling if true.

But everyone can see that you don't believe it's murder at all.

kylith · 01-05-2018 10:47PM

I simply cannot understand how a person could look a woman who has been raped, violated in the worst way, and say ‘Are you _really_ the victim here?’ How could you try talk a woman into having a permanent reminder of the worst moment of her life?

NAGDEFI · 01-05-2018 10:49PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Thanks for your mature response.

Then with that, if she was beyond distraught and wanted an abortion (which is understandable given the circumstances!) would you not prefer for her to have the abortion here, rather than abroad? I'm in no way shape or form trying to antagonise or trap you here, I'm just trying to have a reasonable engagement here is all.

If you were fine with her wanting an abortion and would support her in seeking one (which I have to say, fair play to you as I know it goes against your pro-life views so kudos for putting them aside in this hypothetical scenario) surely you would want her to be here, rather than in another country, no?

I followed your situation Rob and offer my sympathies.

The reason i don't want clinics here is i feel it will greatly raise the level of abortion. I feel voting No is for a greater good. Even though the hypothetical situation of my sister's rape would be better off dealt with at home.

The whole area is so difficult. It's great to discuss with respectfull posters like yourself. I seriously fear the act being abused as a last means of contraception.

amcalester · 01-05-2018 10:50PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You would not try and talk a friend out of murdering her own child. You would even help. Appalling if true.

But everyone can see that you don't believe it's murder at all.

It’s murder if an unknown woman does it but showing compassion if he’s complicit.

Some serious mental gymnastics on show there.

NAGDEFI · 01-05-2018 10:51PM

kylith wrote: »

I simply cannot understand how a person could look a woman who has been raped, violated in the worst way, and say ‘Are you _really_ the victim here?’ How could you try talk a woman into having a permanent reminder of the worst moment of her life?

It's just Kylith a lot of us see that foetus as a baby and innocent life. Yet we feel compassion for the woman. That's the crux of it.

I respect your opinion, it's very logical and valid. I know people have trouble with mine.

gctest50 · 01-05-2018 10:52PM

mohawk wrote: »

https://twitter.com/TarynDeVere/status/989109531459440640

I find the hypocrisy this tweet highlights amusing despite the serious nature of this referendum.

damn good though

Martina1991 · 01-05-2018 10:52PM

NAGDEFI wrote:

Martina you want people to deny their beliefs. My support for a loved one would be 100% if they made that decision. Our conversation would be none of your business.

If any woman made that decision.

No one's decision is any of your business.

NAGDEFI · 01-05-2018 10:54PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You would not try and talk a friend out of murdering her own child. You would even help. Appalling if true.

But everyone can see that you don't believe it's murder at all.

That's BS. If the female herself was in danger of taking her life you might have to suspend the pro life talk you intended.

You're trying to be a smart ass and from what i can see just want to score points and has no concern for woman or baby.

thee glitz · 01-05-2018 10:55PM

gctest50 wrote: »

Why so desparate to retain the 8th

It's not that I am, but I don't favour the proposed legislation.

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

How exactly do you propose that you legislate for rape?

I don't - I'm not a legislator at all. If it was to be done, and there are many who would be against it, having reported the rape would seem reasonable grounds to draw the line at.

NAGDEFI · 01-05-2018 10:56PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

If any woman made that decision.

No one's decision is any of your business.

Again Martina we'll go back to basics. The taking of life is everyone's business. My conversation with my partner isn't.

That's why there's a referendum and currently 26% would vote No to repeal with an equal number of undecided.

Moiratat · 01-05-2018 10:57PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

It's just Kylith a lot of us see that foetus as a baby and innocent life. Yet we feel compassion for the woman. That's the crux of it.

I respect your opinion, it's very logical and valid. I know people have trouble with mine.

I really would like your opinion on the situation I was in. What would you have done? I don't mean that in a narky way (sorry if it sounds like that) what would your solution have been?

NAGDEFI · 01-05-2018 10:57PM

Over and out. Good to debate with posters who can reason.

robarmstrong · 01-05-2018 10:58PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I followed your situation Rob and offer my sympathies.

The reason i don't want clinics here is i feel it will greatly raise the level of abortion. I feel voting No is for a greater good. Even though the hypothetical situation of my sister's rape would be better off dealt with at home.

The whole area is so difficult. It's great to discuss with respectfull posters like yourself. I seriously fear the act being abused as a last means of contraception.

Thank you, I appreciate your sympathies.

Realistically though if we look at it, we have around 3000+ women actively leaving the country each year to seek an abortion, so that would entail a minimum of 3000 abortions a year if it was in Ireland, which would work out at around 1 in 20 odd pregnancies end in abortion, to me that is a desirable rate (I know that sounds good awful, but it's better than the "1 in 5" that's been flaunted about).

I will not ask you to change your mind, that would be absolutely wrong of me, but what I would ask is to think, is retaining the 8th really worthwhile for the greater good if it leaves rape cases and women like my partner stuck in limbo? Surely it would be worthwhile to repeal it and then legislate it for women such as this, no? Again this is just my opinion and I'm not trying to force it upon you but I would greatly appreciate it if you would think about those situations, circumstances and women stuck in them in general, is voting no really worth delaying them access to what they really need?

I understand your fear that it would be used as an alternative to contraception but the definition of contraception is to prevent pregnancy in the first place, not terminate it. For us to just blandly assume it would be abused as such would be a slight to the genuine cases (of which there could be many!) and I feel the women of Ireland deserve more than pessimistic assumptions. I respect your comments regarding our discussion here and I thank you for them.

qxtasybe1nwfh2 · 01-05-2018 10:58PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

No. I stated my beliefs. But you'd have to make a humanitarian call. Are you telling me i can't be pro life yet support my raped sister? We're in very grey areas.

But no human could turn their back on another if their distress was so great. I could do my very best, under the circumstances to offer a pro life view.

Yes but you can be pro life and also support other people’s right to choose which is exactly what you seem to be describing with your family member? I agree that life isn’t black and white, this is exactly why we need to appeal. No one likes the idea of abortion but as you say there is grey areas and nothing is straight forward. Personally, I don’t know if I could ever have an abortion but I don’t know what’s up the line for me or my family members which is why I’m choosing to vote to repeal.

amcalester · 01-05-2018 10:58PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

That's BS. If the female herself was in danger of taking her life you might have to suspend the pro life talk you intended.

You're trying to be a smart ass and from what i can see just want to score points and has no concern for woman or baby.

But why do you get to decide if she’s serious.

We should have suicide committees as well as rape committees (which I believe you suggested earlier).

SusieBlue · 01-05-2018 10:59PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I followed your situation Rob and offer my sympathies.

The reason i don't want clinics here is i feel it will greatly raise the level of abortion. I feel voting No is for a greater good. Even though the hypothetical situation of my sister's rape would be better off dealt with at home.

The whole area is so difficult. It's great to discuss with respectfull posters like yourself. I seriously fear the act being abused as a last means of contraception.

There won’t be clinics. This will be a GP led service.

NAGDEFI · 01-05-2018 11:00PM

Moiratat wrote: »

I really would like your opinion on the situation I was in. What would you have done? I don't mean that in a narky way (sorry if it sounds like that) what would your solution have been?

I beg your pardon Moiratat i haven't read your situation. I'm very sorry to hear.

Again all i can say is if it was rape i would try and reason to keep the baby. If you were really distressed and my talking would add to your problems i would support you 100%.

I'm voting No as i feel it's for the overall good. Those are my honest and sincerely held opinions.

I hope you're doing ok?

Zubeneschamali · 01-05-2018 11:01PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You would not try and talk a friend out of murdering her own child. You would even help. Appalling if true.

But everyone can see that you don't believe it's murder at all.

That's BS. If the female herself was in danger of taking her life you might have to suspend the pro life talk you intended.

Don't try and pretend I might anything. This is on you: accomplice to the murder of a helpless innocent baby in your own words.

But you don't believe your own words, it's just scary talk.

NuMarvel · 01-05-2018 11:01PM

Ninjavampire wrote: »

If it passes, how long do you reckon it will take to allow for later term abortions? There will still be plenty of women going over to England after 12 weeks which will just bring up a lot of the same taking points down the line.

Any other European country that set the timeframe at 12 weeks has left it at that. And some of them go back decades, eg Greece since 1984, Luxemborug since 1978, Denmark since 1973. I see no reason why Ireland wouldn't be the same.

NAGDEFI · 01-05-2018 11:01PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

There won’t be clinics. This will be a GP led service.

I don't believe it Susie, with our politicians..or any politicians for that matter.

01-05-2018 11:02PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

One overly repetitive poster.

OK so you did tell them not to post their opinion, and just because in your opinion their overly repeative in providing their opinion and they don't agree with you.

And I'll take that as an apology that I was lying.

It's a discussion form, one you might not support or believe is balanced because it's doesn't support your beliefs, but it does as your allowed post them.

People will disagree with your opinion as you do with theirs.
If the majority of pro life posters who come on here didn't troll, refuse to answer questions while comtinuing to question repeal posters, shout slogans and just post unfactual claims and end up getting banned because of such acts you might have more people arguing on here for retain and discussing it in a civilised manner and not be crying that their being attacked when asked questions on their opinion.

Ave Sodalis · 01-05-2018 11:02PM

thee glitz wrote:

I don't - I'm not a legislator at all. If it was to be done, and there are many who would be against it, having reported the rape would seem reasonable grounds to draw the line at.

See this is a cop out. Both you and I know that there is no reasonable way to legislate for rape cases. Absolutely anyone can report themselves as being raped. You are talking about desperate women, some of whom would otherwise resort to used coathangers or drinking themselves into a coma. Saying that you should legislate for rape cases, but then saying that you aren't a legislator so don't have to think of how to do that, is just lazy. If a woman has been genuinely raped, it's an exceptionally difficult thing to report it. The legal system they go through is difficult and stressful and if you knew much about it, you'd know why many women may not want go through the legal system. Forcing them to in order to receive an abortion is not the answer.

Hannibal_Smith · 01-05-2018 11:03PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

It's just Kylith a lot of us see that foetus as a baby and innocent life. Yet we feel compassion for the woman. That's the crux of it.

I respect your opinion, it's very logical and valid. I know people have trouble with mine.

But maybe you see it as an innocent life because the campaign for no has painted it that way. That's why these threads have gone around in circles. Posters are showing sleeping babies and fetuses sucking their thumbs. That's not what a 12 week feotus is at all.

The woman is innocent. She has been raped and is now pregnant. It's an absolute horrendous crisis. How can she be left that way against her will?

We're supposed to protect our young. That's what we're designed to do. But if the woman doesn't want to carry it, and this isn't some new age thing I am sure there are generations of past women who were forced to remain pregnant against their will, why should she have To? Women are not baby making machines. It is not a woman's sole purpose in life to bear children.

gctest50 · 01-05-2018 11:03PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

.....

. The taking of life is everyone's business..

Are you going to campaign for pregnancy tests at ferry and airports ?

like used to be there ?

If you're not going to it's just NIMBYism

NAGDEFI · 01-05-2018 11:04PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Don't try and pretend I might anything. This is on you: accomplice to the murder of a helpless innocent baby in your own words.

But you don't believe your own words, it's just scary talk.

Mr. Master Debater!

It's not on me. If only one life can be saved.

You lack a real human empathy don't you?? You just like debating these issues from a legalistic point of view trying to catch people out. Bit *****y for a self proclaimed 'Social Warrior'? More like a legend in your own head.

robarmstrong · 01-05-2018 11:04PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Over and out. Good to debate with posters who can reason.

I'm sorry you are leaving. If you don't feel like continuing posting in this thread or want to reply to my last post via PM please feel absolutely free to do so.

NAGDEFI · 01-05-2018 11:05PM

gctest50 wrote: »

Are you going to campaign for pregnancy tests at ferry and airports ?

like used to be there ?

If you're not going to it's just NIMBYism

You've asked that 3 times already and it's been replied to. Maybe time you went to bed.

Ave Sodalis · 01-05-2018 11:08PM

NAGDEFI wrote:

I don't believe it Susie, with our politicians..or any politicians for that matter.

Can I ask why not? A GP led service makes much more sense than clinics. Our contraception service and other services are all GP led. This would add very little to the GPs workload, if not lightening it as a pregnant woman would need regular appointments anyway. Why do you think our politicians would go with something else? Is there a past event you're basing this on?

NuMarvel · 01-05-2018 11:09PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I don't believe it Susie, with our politicians..or any politicians for that matter.

You think politicians won't allow GPs to offer the service?

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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