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Abortion ref - am I the only one who doesn't care?

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    #122
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    We'll have to wait a few years for more No voters to die off, I'd say 5 at least.

    You're assuming the majority of no voters are old..

    Same as many others assume the majority of no voters are religious..

    I'm not sure either of these assumptions are correct.


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    #123
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Squatter wrote: »
    There are far too many nasties on both sides of the debate for me to feel comfortable supporting either faction.

    This time staying home will be nearly as good as voting Yes, since Yes is ahead 2:1 in polls among those expressing a preference.

    The No side need every Don't Know/Won't Vote/Don't Care to vote No just to get things to a draw.


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    #124
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Swanner wrote: »
    You're assuming the majority of no voters are old..

    No, I am not assuming that.


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    #125
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,304 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Swanner wrote: »
    You're assuming the majority of no voters are old..
    The polls in general have all indicated there are more no voters among older ages than younger.


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    #126
    NickNickleby
    Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭NickNickleby


    Flying Fox wrote: »
    The mental gymnastics required for the no side to come out with this are quite something. I smell desperation.
    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Cheeky sods!

    Interestingly, a quick google image search for this photo shows up 'similar' not identical image. THe similar images do not contain any reference to our referendum. So perhaps its a bit hasty to attribute this to the No side. (I'm assuming that if a No campaign group had published such an image, it would be on the Internet and Google would find it).

    I make this point simply because this kind of thing is rampant nowadays, someone posts something on the Internet and it becomes synonymous with a particular viewpoint, even though its likely that most people wouldn't recognise it as 'theirs' , if you get my drift.


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    #127
    animaal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 815 ✭✭✭animaal


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    We'll have to wait a few years for more No voters to die off, I'd say 5 at least. There will probably be another headline death/scandal in that timeframe to kick up headlines, or perhaps the AG will be forced to get off his arse and jail some teen for buying abortion pills online.

    This is something I've been thinking about generally.

    A valid point that has been made is that many of the population weren't born the last time there was a vote on this issue.

    Whichever way the referendum goes, should we have a rerun every 10 years? I.e. if it passes, the next rerun will be to reestablish a constitutional "8th" or not. If it does not pass, the rerun will again be to abolish it.

    It might also facilitate the country in trying out a new regulatory approach to abortion, with a guaranteed option for the citizens to reevaluate it again after seeing how well/badly it has worked.


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    #128
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    animaal wrote: »
    Whichever way the referendum goes, should we have a rerun every 10 years? I.e. if it passes, the next rerun will be to reestablish a constitutional "8th" or not.

    The 8th was the last sting of a dying wasp. They lost the referendums on the 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 25th, and 34th on the bounce.

    That's why they put the 8th in place in 83, to tie the hands of future more socially liberal governments, because they could read the writing on the wall.

    But this is that future, and the public is more socially liberal now. We are never going back.


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    #129
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    animaal wrote: »
    This is something I've been thinking about generally.

    A valid point that has been made is that many of the population weren't born the last time there was a vote on this issue.

    Whichever way the referendum goes, should we have a rerun every 10 years? I.e. if it passes, the next rerun will be to reestablish a constitutional "8th" or not. If it does not pass, the rerun will again be to abolish it.

    It might also facilitate the country in trying out a new regulatory approach to abortion, with a guaranteed option for the citizens to reevaluate it again after seeing how well/badly it has worked.

    Perhaps referenda in general should be scheduled to re-run once per generation (20 years seems less of a burden). Still, it might be a lot of hassle.

    I think the criteria of running referenda needs to change anyway. Abortion and Marriage Equality were matters easily processed by the general public. The various EU treaties etc. really not- should be managed indirectly. If we can't trust the politicians to manage treaties, we need to fire them and replace them. Better engagement in general elections needed there.


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    #130
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    gmisk wrote: »
    The polls in general have all indicated there are more no voters among older ages than younger.

    I'm aware of that and frankly i'm dubious..

    If recent times have taught us anything it's that what someone says to a pollster and what box they tick in the voting booth are not necessarily one of the same.

    Polls have got some very large decisions very wrong in recent times.

    I'm not suggesting we dismiss them but I take them with a pinch of salt.

    I don't really discuss this topic too much with people but it has come up a few times and on each occasion the demographics have surprised me. I'm not suggesting this is representative of the wider view.

    Clearly some of the stereotypes hold water but there's a growing number that don't.

    I think this will pass alright, just not by anything like the margin the the polls are saying..

    Speaking for myself, I'm undecided now and the reality is that i'll still be undecided when I walk out of that polling booth.

    Can't imagine i'm alone in that.


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    #131
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    You didn't actually you went off on a tangent about pond life. The referendum affects women's health. Nothing more nothing less.

    Oh dear! You appear to have a massive problem with joined up thinking :confused:

    You see, simply getting rid of the 8th won't be the end of the matter. If the referendum is carried, legislation will be need to be passed by the Oireachtas setting out the circumstances in which abortion will be lawful.

    Given that, it would be difficult for anyone in possession of even average intelligence to claim that my second paragraph (concerning the make up of the Oireachtas) was tangential to the topic.


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    #132
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    This time staying home will be nearly as good as voting Yes, since Yes is ahead 2:1 in polls among those expressing a preference.

    The No side need every Don't Know/Won't Vote/Don't Care to vote No just to get things to a draw.


    In that case, presumably there's not much need for the YES voters to bother voting either! Will you tell them all, or shall I? ;)


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    #133
    elstingeo
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭elstingeo


    Irregardless if you are sick of it or not. It is your civic duty as a citizen to vote. But I will agree with you that it is very intense in terms of pushing its agenda.

    I can understand why you would show a strong disinterest in voting. It is beginning to irritate me also. But please be aware that your vote affects the whole of society.. even if it is marginally so.


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    #134
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Swanner wrote: »
    You're assuming the majority of no voters are old..

    Same as many others assume the majority of no voters are religious..

    I'm not sure either of these assumptions are correct.
    It’s more hope then an assumption on the repeal side.


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    #135
    bleary
    Registered Users Posts: 495 ✭✭bleary


    I'm pretty old and this will be my first opportunity to vote so I'm not waiting for a do over.
    However you feel about abortion the insertion of this into our constitution was a mistake. It was enacted at the same time haughey ensured contraception was illegal unless you were using it for family planning with a prescription ( so for married people only) . Course in his mind morality meant you only slept around with other married people.

    You don't need to look back to 1983 for women who were denied cancer treatment because they were pregnant. Michelle harte had her cancer treatment stopped for 5 weeks until she could be helped on a plane by her partner because she was too weak to walk on herself to travel to UK for an abortion. She died but as the no campaign say cancer killed her , not the 8th. So thats ok then.
    I'm tired of ireland putting it's problems on a boat. Time to grow up.


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    #136
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Squatter wrote:
    You see, simply getting rid of the 8th won't be the end of the matter. If the referendum is carried, legislation will be need to be passed by the Oireachtas setting out the circumstances in which abortion will be lawful.
    Yes and legislation has already been suggested.
    Squatter wrote:
    Given that, it would be difficult for anyone in possession of even average intelligence to claim that my second paragraph (concerning the make up of the Oireachtas) was tangential to the topic.

    The makeup of the Dail is irrelevant. The removal of the 8th allows the Dail to legislate which should always have been case.
    As an aside are you able to make a point without the snide attack?


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    #137
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Squatter wrote: »
    In that case, presumably there's not much need for the YES voters to bother voting either! Will you tell them all, or shall I? ;)

    If all today's don't knows stay home, then half the Yes voters could stay home too and Yes would still win.

    But we know many of today's Don't Knows will vote. Are they Don't Care/Won't Vote? Shy No? Shy Yes? Haven't thought about it yet?

    We have some polling saying Don't Knows lean Yes, but then people seem to be moving from Yes to Don't Know over time, which may indicate that their view is changing, or just that they are confused/annoyed/sickened by the debate.

    Lots of open questions...


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    #138
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,949 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    gmisk wrote: »
    Have a read of the in her shoes page on facebook....these are not "hypothetical situations"

    It doesn't affect the OP or people of a like mind right now, so for them it's purely hypothetical. It's their choice whether they want to vote, spoil their vote or go to the pub instead.


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    #139
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,366 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Billgirlylegs wrote: »
    Maybe RedC/Irish Times/MRBI could add new categories to polling options - Yes / No / I Don't Know / I Don't Care / I Don't Want To Talk About It.

    I think they generally ask do you intend to vote before moving onto the questions!


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    #140
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    elstingeo wrote: »
    Irregardless if you are sick of it or not. It is your civic duty as a citizen to vote. But I will agree with you that it is very intense in terms of pushing its agenda.

    I can understand why you would show a strong disinterest in voting. It is beginning to irritate me also. But please be aware that your vote affects the whole of society.. even if it is marginally so.

    Aaaahhhh, I don’t know. I was not able to register for the SSM marriage referendum because walking more than five metres at the time left me dangerously out of breath and I also dealing with excruciating bone cancer pain that left me barely able to stand up straight.

    Even if I had managed to get registered, I wouldn’t have got out to vote because by that point, I was diagnosed with terminal cancer and was still shell-shocked and a total basket case and was also dealing with the first effects of chemo.

    I would not judge people for not voting if they don’t feel physically or mentally up to it. There’s always going to be a minority of people who can’t vote even if they want to.


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    #141
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,641 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Iv read up and I'm still not sure what I think so iv decided against voting on this , Normally id be in the you should always cast a vote but I really can't decide so I'm going to leave it to the good people of the country and live with what they decide,
    I just hope down the road in life that I don't come into a situation where I regret it but that could be either way, 
    I think there are valid points  for both side in this argument,


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    #142
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    taserfrank wrote: »
    I couldn't be arsed voting, I'm sick of this referendum as are many I'd say.

    Loser talk.

    [Edit] Whoa, disappearing loser talk!

    Is this like SnapBoards now?


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    #143
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,304 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Taserfrank for someone who cant be arsed voting as you put it....its strange you joined this site a couple of days ago and the thing you have posted on majorly is the 8th referendum from a very strong No side of things....odd that....


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    #144
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Iv read up and I'm still not sure what I think so iv decided against voting on this , Normally id be in the you should always cast a vote but I really can't decide so I'm going to leave it to the good people of the country and live with what they decide,
    I just hope down the road in life that I don't come into a situation where I regret it but that could be either way, 
    I think there are valid points  for both side in this argument,

    I can understand how many types of situations could arise regarding the women in your life where you regret voting no. But i cant think of any situation where you would later regret voting yes.


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    #145
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,641 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I wish I could not care but I've been personally affected by the 8th and will continue to do so until menopause. It's continued existence affects every woman I love. It's too important not to care.
    Its a strange one because there are thousand who have been effected by the 8th and deserve better  but the thousand who will be effected by removing it will never have a voice so , its kind of lose lose  in my eyes,


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    #146
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    The thing I find interesting is, you can still be pro life in a pro choice country, but you cannot be pro choice in a country which has legislated towards pro life principles. The only thing a successful repeal takes away from you is your power to control what I do with my own body, not yours. And only a complete control freak would have a problem with that.


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    #147
    Ragnar Lothbrok
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Ragnar Lothbrok


    swampgas wrote: »
    You're probably not the only one, but your attitude also suggests that you don't give a toss about women, including any female friends, sisters, aunts, nieces, cousins who might be affected by the 8th.

    Maybe you should ask them what they think about it, you might learn something.

    Yeah................ alternatively you could argue that this attitude means the poster doesn't give a toss about unborn children - the ones affected MOST by this referendum.


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    #148
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,641 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Mutant z wrote: »
    Whether you care or not it will have a major impact on this country so its highly important and one which every citizen who's eligible to vote should there's no point in not voting and moaning about the result after when you're 1 vote could have been the difference in whatever outcome it ends up bring so a vote is a must for every Irish citizen.
    I'm sorry but that's nonsense,
    If people can't decide then they have every right not to chose one side over the other,
    Not everything or everyone thinks in black or white, life does not work like that,
    There are pro's and con's to both and if people can't decide why should they HAVE to pick one ?


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    #149
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »
    Yeah................ alternatively you could argue that this attitude means the poster doesn't give a toss about unborn children - the ones affected MOST by this referendum.

    Women are the ones most affected by this referendum.


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    #150
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »
    Yeah................ alternatively you could argue that this attitude means the poster doesn't give a toss about unborn children - the ones affected MOST by this referendum.

    Abortions already happen in Ireland - just in a very unsafe & unsupervised way. And unborn children are affected every time someone has a wa*k.


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    #151
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Its a strange one because there are thousand who have been effected by the 8th and deserve better  but the thousand who will be effected by removing it will never have a voice so , its kind of lose lose  in my eyes,

    What, you think thousands of fetusses would like to protest at being aborted n Ireland instead of England?

    I suppose at least they get a trip abroad out of the 8th, it's not much but...


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