Can I give more? The answer is usually yes

hot buttered scones · 23-04-2018 06:33PM

Can't go wrong with P+D in my opinion. The 55-70 plan looks ok on the face of it, but I reckon its quite tough, with a few medium long runs back to back if I remember correctly. I did the up to 55 mile plan last year, but added in an extra easy day of around 5 miles on one of the rest days and thought it worked quite well to be honest - brought the peak mileage up to 60, and was running 6 days a week for most of it. It was more than enough for me anyway.
I've gotten the best results from doing the long runs as the book advises - start of at MP+20% and gradually sped up to around MP+10% - no programmed workouts on the watch or anything, just have an idea of what pace you should start at and just gradually pick it up every few miles. The LT sessions are tough imo. That 7 miler at LT pace to be done in the height of the summer is a killer, but if you get it done you'll feel great. Others have advocated doing these runs as split LT tempos, which may be a better idea. Definitely run your recovery runs at recovery pace rather than easy pace. I find P+D plans are the kind where the first few weeks feel grand, and then it just creeps up on you, so expect some fairly decent levels of fatigue after 6 or 7 weeks. If you can do the tune up races, do them rather than substituting in a time trial or another session. And don't stress about session going bad etc. Read the book - its all in there.
Have a read of my log leading up to Dublin 17 if you want.

OOnegative · 23-04-2018 06:40PM

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Can't go wrong with P+D in my opinion. The 55-70 plan looks ok on the face of it, but I reckon its quite tough, with a few medium long runs back to back if I remember correctly. I did the up to 55 mile plan last year, but added in an extra easy day of around 5 miles on one of the rest days and thought it worked quite well to be honest - brought the peak mileage up to 60, and was running 6 days a week for most of it. It was more than enough for me anyway.
I've gotten the best results from doing the long runs as the book advises - start of at MP+20% and gradually sped up to around MP+10% - no programmed workouts on the watch or anything, just have an idea of what pace you should start at and just gradually pick it up every few miles. The LT sessions are tough imo. That 7 miler at LT pace to be done in the height of the summer is a killer, but if you get it done you'll feel great. Others have advocated doing these runs as split LT tempos, which may be a better idea. Definitely run your recovery runs at recovery pace rather than easy pace. I find P+D plans are the kind where the first few weeks feel grand, and then it just creeps up on you, so expect some fairly decent levels of fatigue after 6 or 7 weeks. If you can do the tune up races, do them rather than substituting in a time trial or another session. And don't stress about session going bad etc. Read the book - its all in there.
Have a read of my log leading up to Dublin 17 if you want.

Cheers man, exactly the kind of input I was looking for. I’m under no illusion it will be easy in anyway, it does look challenging on paper alright but and this sounds real naive i’d say but i’m looking forward to that challenge. The 18 miles with 14@MP has me planking myself already and it’s a good three months away yet!!!

hot buttered scones · 23-04-2018 07:29PM

OOnegative wrote: »

Cheers man, exactly the kind of input I was looking for. I’m under no illusion it will be easy in anyway, it does look challenging on paper alright but and this sounds real naive i’d say but i’m looking forward to that challenge. The 18 miles with 14@MP has me planking myself already and it’s a good three months away yet!!!

If you can do that session your sorted. I always found the 13 with 8MP harder, and MP should get easier as you get fitter. In fact both times I used P+D my MP came down - 3:30 goal for DCM 16 ran 3:21:xx, 3:15 goal for DCM 17, ran 3:09:xx. Someone else from round these parts started with the 55-70 last year and found it tough (can't remember who though). I'll have a look at it later. Going by your log here, I'm guessing time is not the big an issue for you? I'd have a hard time fitting in all the longer session in the up to 70 plan, which is why I opted for the one I did.

OOnegative · 23-04-2018 07:38PM

hot buttered scones wrote: »

If you can do that session your sorted. I always found the 13 with 8MP harder, and MP should get easier as you get fitter. In fact both times I used P+D my MP came down - 3:30 goal for DCM 16 ran 3:21:xx, 3:15 goal for DCM 17, ran 3:09:xx. Someone else from round these parts started with the 55-70 last year and found it tough (can't remember who though). I'll have a look at it later. Going by your log here, I'm guessing time is not the big an issue for you? I'd have a hard time fitting in all the longer session in the up to 70 plan, which is why I opted for the one I did.

No, time is no issue for me currently as i’m a stay at home Dad who has 3 mornings per week totally to himself and an extremely understanding wife who knows how much this running lark means to me. I’ll say it now, sub 3 will be the aim for Cologne. I may never have the same quality time to train for a marathon again but i’ll be sensible in the fact that if I feel it’s going to be a stretch to far going by the training i’ll row back. Plus it’ll give you a target 3 weeks later in Frankfurt!!!

AuldManKing · 23-04-2018 10:12PM

I used P&D a few times.

The 1st time I used it I got bored with it and dumped it - not enough excitement (sessions) in it for me.
Next couple of times I pimped it with some more MP work.

I know that a few Dunboyne runners used it for DCM 17 to great effect with a good number getting sub 3's.

I suppose its whatever floats your boat - I'd say if I used it again, I'd have to trust the plan as its tried & trusted WW with a large degree of success.

hot buttered scones · 24-04-2018 12:28AM

I'd look at the later weeks in the plan before making up your mind.

15 weeks to go for example has: (LT = 15k to HM pace)

Rest; 11 miles; 13 miles; 5 recovery; 9 miles with 4@LT; 5 recovery; 15 miles (58 total)

There's a lot of running in that already, and that's only the third week.

7 weeks to go:

Rest; 6 miles a.m, 4 miles p.m; 15 miles; 6 recovery; 12 miles with 7@LT; 7 recovery; 22 miles (70 total)

For me, that would be beast of week - you basically have 3 long runs with that tough 7@LT session. That's following a "recovery" week of 58 miles (including a VO2 max session of 6x800@5k), and the 3 weeks before that again are 68, 66 and 67 miles.

For P+D, I'd see no harm in getting up to somewhere close to max mileage first, then dropping back for the first few weeks as you start to do the sessions.

I have a pace and HR calculator for P+D somewhere in my google docs. I'll post a link later when I can get access to it.

Annie get your Run · 24-04-2018 09:04AM

AuldManKing wrote: »

I used P&D a few times.

The 1st time I used it I got bored with it and dumped it - not enough excitement (sessions) in it for me.
Next couple of times I pimped it with some more MP work.

I know that a few Dunboyne runners used it for DCM 17 to great effect with a good number getting sub 3's.

I suppose its whatever floats your boat - I'd say if I used it again, I'd have to trust the plan as its tried & trusted WW with a large degree of success.

I wouldn't be entirely sure they didn't pimp it too though....;)

B why don't you ask on the sub 3 thread what plans those who got their sub 3 used and pick the most successful one?

OOnegative · 24-04-2018 09:12AM

Annie get your Run wrote: »

B why don't you ask on the sub 3 thread what plans those who got their sub 3 used and pick the most successful one?

I trawled through it and P&D is one of the more popular plans, i’m happy this time i’ve chosen the right plan. It’s going to be a challenge of course but that’s what i’m looking forward to and hey marathon training isn’t suppose to be a walk in the park!!

Annie get your Run · 24-04-2018 11:39AM

OOnegative wrote: »

I trawled through it and P&D is one of the more popular plans, i’m happy this time i’ve chosen the right plan. It’s going to be a challenge of course but that’s what i’m looking forward to and hey marathon training isn’t suppose to be a walk in the park!!

Sounds like you've made the right choice so

. Best of luck with it!!!!!!!!

Ultraman100 · 24-04-2018 04:19PM

copy flannos training log.....

OOnegative · 24-04-2018 04:27PM

Ultraman100 wrote: »

copy flannos training log.....

Difference there is that man has talent!!! Plus 101 other things.

adrian522 · 24-04-2018 05:04PM

I think it depends on your strengths and weaknesses as a runner. P&D is very much endurance focused and if you are lacking in this area it will certainly bring you on. Like AMK I found it a bit tedious doing 2-3 MLR per week along with a long run at the weekend and not enough quality.

I think it's a good base though with which to build/modify a plan around. I would also try to convert the LT runs to mins rather than distance. Posted about this before but 7 miles at LT is a lot particularly for slower runners. If your LT pace is 5 min per mile, then you are doing 35 mins at LT, but if your LT is 8 min per mile you are suddenly doing 56 mins.

It doesn't make sense that slower runners have a much tougher session than faster runners. In his latest book (Faster Road running) all his tempo runs are prescribed by a certain number of mins rather than for a particular distance.

Best of luck with it anyway.

hot buttered scones · 24-04-2018 05:30PM

adrian522 wrote:

I think it's a good base though with which to build/modify a plan around. I would also try to convert the LT runs to mins rather than distance. Posted about this before but 7 miles at LT is a lot particularly for slower runners. If your LT pace is 5 min per mile, then you are doing 35 mins at LT, but if your LT is 8 min per mile you are suddenly doing 56 mins.

This makes loads of sense. I'm using this approach if I ever use P+D again.

hot buttered scones · 27-04-2018 11:20AM

Here's the plan I used for DCM last year:

DCM 2017 plan

Sheet 1 is what I had planned. I didn't have the full 18 weeks, so I did mesocycle 1 from the 12 week plan and then continued on to the 18 week plan from there. The sheet called "actual" is what I actually did. I had to move around some of the runs due to work, but the plan works best if you do the runs in the order specified.

Sheet 2 is a pace calculator. Just input your goal time and it will give you long run and general aerobic paces. For recovery runs only I nearly always went off heart rate, but it should be near the slow end of General Aerobic range (if not slower). Put in your Max Hr and resting Hr to get an idea of the HR ranges for each type of run. You'll have to put in your LT pace manually because that's based off your 10 mile-HM pace. I think he recommends 10 mile pace for "slower" runners, but it's whatever you could run in a hour I think. You'll have to check the book.

Just below that table is a pace calculator for the VO2 max sessions. Just put in your 5k pace and it'll give the splits for each rep, plus the range of recovery times from 50-90% of each rep.

Below that again are calculators based of 10k and HM pace which I hardly used, and I think are for the Faster Road Running book.

Hope this helps.

OOnegative · 27-04-2018 11:22AM

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Here's the plan I used for DCM last year:

DCM 2017 plan

Sheet 1 is what I had planned. I didn't have the full 18 weeks, so I did mesocycle 1 from the 12 week plan and then continued on to the 18 week plan from there. The sheet called "actual" is what I actually did. I had to move around some of the runs due to work, but the plan works best if you do the runs in the order specified.

Sheet 2 is a pace calculator. Just input your goal time and it will give you long run and general aerobic paces. For recovery runs only I nearly always went off heart rate, but it should be near the slow end of General Aerobic range (if not slower). Put in your Max Hr and resting Hr to get an idea of the HR ranges for each type of run.

Just below that table is a pace calculator for the VO2 max sessions. Just put in your 5k pace and it'll give the splits for each rep, plus the range of recovery times from 50-90% of each rep.

Below that again are calculators based of 10k and HM pace which I hardly used, and I think are for the Faster Road Running book.

Hope this helps.

Thanks a million for that man, great help.

hot buttered scones · 27-04-2018 11:23AM

OOnegative wrote: »

Thanks a million for that man, great help.

Just did a quick edit there to add in a note about LT pace

Murph_D · 28-04-2018 04:34PM

Sorry to hear about your loss, B, and apologies for my crass response to a previous post - I realise now what you were trying to say. Condolences to you all.

Plans... for what it’s worth I think my only full cycle of P&D had me in great marathon shape but conditions conspired against me on the day so I never got to reap the benefit. Felt really strong by the end of the plan (45-55 mile version), having stuck to it pretty closely throughout.

Have to say though that I enjoyed Hanson more - the overall emphasis on MP is great for your confidence on the day (but then again so is the 15 @ MP that you pull off in P&D). The Hanson speed sessions are enjoyable too if you like speed stuff, and they are also more forgiving pace wise than P&D (because ultimately the focus of Hanson is on the weekly tempos).

It’s a toss-up really. With your existing strength I think either plan will serve you well.

OOnegative · 28-04-2018 04:41PM

Murph_D wrote: »

Sorry to hear about your loss, B, and apologies for my crass response to a previous post - I realise now what you were trying to say. Condolences to you all.

Plans... for what it’s worth I think my only full cycle of P&D had me in great marathon shape but conditions conspired against me on the day so I never got to reap the benefit. Felt really strong by the end of the plan (45-55 mile version), having stuck to it pretty closely throughout.

Have to say though that I enjoyed Hanson more - the overall emphasis on MP is great for your confidence on the day (but then again so is the 15 @ MP that you pull off in P&D). The Hanson speed sessions are enjoyable too if you like speed stuff, and they are also more forgiving pace wise than P&D (because ultimately the focus of Hanson is on the weekly tempos).

It’s a toss-up really. With your existing strength I think either plan will serve you well.

Thanks D. No need for apologies, knew you meant nothing by it. I looked at Hanson to but like many, the long run topping out at 18 just didn’t sit well with me. I know I lack endurance and the few runs over 20 miles in P&D settled the argument for me.

Murph_D · 28-04-2018 07:19PM

Yeah, it’s hard to get your head around that long run schedule but I don’t think it makes much difference in the end. It’s all about being fresh! But I understand the scepticism.

OOnegative · 29-04-2018 01:21PM

Monday 23.4.18

6.10 miles Easy@8.39min/miles in 52min 48secs

Usual run around Bosjes Van Poot and then onto Westduinpark, not as warm as last week but still plenty warm for an Irish plodder!!

Tuesday 24.4.18

7.25 miles Easy@8.31min/miles in 61min 42secs

Same route as yesterday with a little bit added on, another enjoyable run as always.

Wednesday 25.4.18

6.10 miles Easy@8.33min/miles in 52min 07secs

Same run as Monday, only in the opposite direction this time. Nothing once more to report, body feeling good & strong.

Thursday 26.4.18

Rest Day.

Friday 27.4.18

5.70 miles Easy@8.43min/miles in 49min 40secs

Hungover run in late afternoon :eek:. Kept to BVP completely for this, glad to get out in the end to sweat the hooch out of the system.

Saturday 28.4.18

10 miles Easy@8.34min/miles in 1hr 25min 39secs

Up early again as last week and out the door to get this done and out of the way, as with week before it was warm at 7.55am heading out the door. Headed for Zuiderpark this week as there is a water stop in the park i could avail of, if like always i started sweating buckets in the warmt. Plan was 3 big laps of the park then home to make up the 10 miles, had to use the water stop twice as i was soaked through come start of the 2nd lap. Not a good idea to wear a white tshirt either as it was completely see through also, lucky i have nice man boobs!!! Good run and no harm getting used to the warmer weather.

Sunday 29.4.18

7 miles Easy@8.29min/miles in 59min 22secs

Once more very humid heading out for this, headed for Kijkduin as i had long wanted to visit this place, http://www.stroom.nl/nl/kor/project.php?pr_id=4616026, some climbing to reach it, 111 steps up and pace went into 10min miling as i did so. Wasn't happy with climbing it once i had to do it again from opposite side that involved 150 steps this time, wont give the avg pace for this one

. Will certianly visit here again for a run as it looks another wonderful facilty to spend a longer run in.

42.15 miles for the week and again happy with this, off to France on Tuesday for 10 days but will continue to build the miles getting 45 in next week all going to plan. Have a 5k and 10k race planned for May but not expecting anything from them really, i will go race them as hard as i can but will not be expecting anything near PB form in either. Its all about building the miles at the minute towards Cologne, mind is focused on nothing else running wise.

career move · 29-04-2018 06:29PM

That's a good weeks training. Steps are great for a the glutes

kerrylad1 · 29-04-2018 07:57PM

Best of luck with the p and d plan,I did it for a 3:15 attempt one year and blew up.I didn't follow it to a tee,so I deserved it.I think the 70 mile plan will suit you,that recent half,points to a right good shot at sub 3.I know a good few lads,locally,that went sub 3 with this programme.

Ultraman100 · 29-04-2018 09:08PM

hungover in the afternoon....

OOnegative · 29-04-2018 09:09PM

Ultraman100 wrote: »

hungover in the afternoon....

Yeah, 5.30am Finish!!

OOnegative · 12-05-2018 04:34PM

Tuesday 1.5.18

6.80 miles Easy@8.17min/miles in 56min 22secs

First run on French soil, out to a little village called Saint Christophe a Berry and back, decided prior to going on holiday to run on feel given the day that was in it heat wise. Nice run but French drivers aren't fond on sharing the road with runners.

Wednesday 2.5.18

7.25 miles Easy@8.30min/miles in 61min 41secs

Down into the local village of Vic Sur Aisne and found a grass trail along the River Aisne, ran as far as i could go and retraced my steps. Lovely run in 20+ degree heat.

Thursday 3.5.18

6.40 miles Easy@8.35min/miles in 54min 55secs

Had done some reading on this place before we departed and was anxious to pay it a visit http://mountain-swell.com/travel/vic-sur-aisne-war-caves, truely an amazing and eerie place to run in one. I went inside a cave or two but the light on the old phone wasn't the strongest. Later found out a herd of wild boar live in the caves. Was more worried about meeting this lad though http://hellboy.wikia.com/wiki/Karl_Ruprecht_Kroenen :eek::eek::eek:.

Friday 4.5.18

7.15 miles Easy@8.16min/miles in 59min 08secs

Few laps around Vic Sur Aisne and back, felt the heat on this one 25+ degrees.

Saturday 5.5.18

7.20 miles Steady@7.52min/miles in 56min 34secs

After the obligatory visit to Decathlon while on French soil i set off in mid-afternoon in now approaching 30 degree heat. Had enough of sharing roads with kamikaze French drivers and found an old dirt road that had zero traffic using it. The pace felt easy so i just went with it, was a sweating mess by runs end but heat caused me problems.

Sunday 6.5.18

6.35 miles Easy@8.19min/miles in 52min 49secs

Out to little village of Bitry for this, found this wonderful chruch,

some amazing architecture both inside and out.

41.15 miles for the week, down on the 45 i wanted but LOADS of cross training thrown in going up and down waterslides. That counts right!!!!!

Annie get your Run · 12-05-2018 06:23PM

OOnegative wrote: »

41.15 miles for the week, down on the 45 i wanted but LOADS of cross training thrown in going up and down waterslides. That counts right!!!!!

It's times like this I miss FBOT and TBL with their quick wit and sarcasm - it counts but only if you've moved over to the dark side

.

Enjoy the hols!

Back in Black · 12-05-2018 09:13PM

Enjoy the hols B. looks fantastic!

career move · 13-05-2018 05:47PM

Hope you're enjoying the holidays. Pictures and caves look fab

OOnegative · 14-05-2018 05:56PM

Monday 7.5.18

6.75 miles Easy@8.25min/miles in 56min 47secs

Down to Vic Sur Aisne, across the River Aisne on the concrete bridge!!! HUGE fear of metal bridges which is the main one in the village. The concrete one I used is obviously the old disused route. Down my dirt road and back again. Left knee feeling sore.

Tuesday 8.5.18

5.60 miles Easy@8.25min/miles in 47min 06secs

Lap and a half round the town, knee felt ok while running but painful after. Same area & same type of pain that I had prior to my knee operation 4-5 years back. Not a happy bunny!!

Wednesday 9.5.18

6.30 miles Easy@8.29min/miles in 53min 28secs

Exact route as Monday only a little shorter, knee sore before hand but once Moreno pain while running. Pain in same area again after!!

Thursday 10.5.18

5.35 miles Easy@8.31min/miles in 45min 35secs

Last run on French soil, ran to St Christophe a Berry in a different route this time, beautiful little quaint French village that had me thinking of Gordon Kay and Allo Allo’. Knee once more paining me after.

Friday 11.5.18

Rest, traveling back to Holland. Had wracked my brain all previous day & night and day to try figure what I had been doing differently while running on holiday? Only thing I came up with was I had neglected my walking lunges post run, something I do religiously with my gimpy hip!! Knee still fairly sore.

Saturday 12.5.18

8.15 miles Easy@8.28min/miles in 69mins

Out to Kijkduin on through the Ockenburgh Estate and on towards Monster turned halfway and retraced my steps home. Knee good & felt better again after walking lunges!! No pain in the evening either.

Sunday 13.5.18

6.85 miles Easy@8.33min/miles in 58min 32secs

Up to Bosjes Van Poot, one big loop of that over to Westduinpark and back home again. Knee 100% and no pain again in the evening after lunges.

39 miles even for the week, not as many as I hoped but after panicking all week that my knee was flummoxed again i’ll gladly take it. Sleep is rubbish since returning to Holland, withdrawal symptoms no doubt after 10 days solid of a few evening beers!!

Few photos from Monday’s run and the River Aisne:

RedRunner · 15-05-2018 03:46PM

OOnegative wrote: »

Monday 7.5.18

6.75 miles Easy@8.25min/miles in 56min 47secs

Down to Vic Sur Aisne, across the River Aisne on the concrete bridge!!! HUGE fear of metal bridges which is the main one in the village. The concrete one I used is obviously the old disused route. Down my dirt road and back again. Left knee feeling sore.

Tuesday 8.5.18

5.60 miles Easy@8.25min/miles in 47min 06secs

Lap and a half round the town, knee felt ok while running but painful after. Same area & same type of pain that I had prior to my knee operation 4-5 years back. Not a happy bunny!!

Wednesday 9.5.18

6.30 miles Easy@8.29min/miles in 53min 28secs

Exact route as Monday only a little shorter, knee sore before hand but once Moreno pain while running. Pain in same area again after!!

Thursday 10.5.18

5.35 miles Easy@8.31min/miles in 45min 35secs

Last run on French soil, ran to St Christophe a Berry in a different route this time, beautiful little quaint French village that had me thinking of Gordon Kay and Allo Allo’. Knee once more paining me after.

Friday 11.5.18

Rest, traveling back to Holland. Had wracked my brain all previous day & night and day to try figure what I had been doing differently while running on holiday? Only thing I came up with was I had neglected my walking lunges post run, something I do religiously with my gimpy hip!! Knee still fairly sore.

Saturday 12.5.18

8.15 miles Easy@8.28min/miles in 69mins

Out to Kijkduin on through the Ockenburgh Estate and on towards Monster turned halfway and retraced my steps home. Knee good & felt better again after walking lunges!! No pain in the evening either.

Sunday 13.5.18

6.85 miles Easy@8.33min/miles in 58min 32secs

Up to Bosjes Van Poot, one big loop of that over to Westduinpark and back home again. Knee 100% and no pain again in the evening after lunges.

39 miles even for the week, not as many as I hoped but after panicking all week that my knee was flummoxed again i’ll gladly take it. Sleep is rubbish since returning to Holland, withdrawal symptoms no doubt after 10 days solid of a few evening beers!!

Few photos from Monday’s run and the River Aisne:

Nice pics. Did that car take a wrong turn at some stage (in the third photo)?:)

Hopefully that knee issue goes away for you.

Can I give more? The answer is usually yes

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