Bangladeshi Trainee Garda and His Sham Marriage

weldoninhio · 26-04-2018 10:43AM

bubblypop wrote: »

You don't know that it would be inadmissible. A Garda in a sham marriage is not necessarily a corrupt cop. Evidence of his career & good work would be heard.
And even if his particular evidence was excluded, it doesn't necessarily have any affect on the outcome of the trial.

The mental gymnastics are impressive, if completely wrong.

26-04-2018 10:44AM

Kivaro wrote: »

It is truly bizarre the lengths that liberals will go to in order to defend the indefensible just because it involves migrants.
.

I'm not sure what this is about, is liberal an insult now?
I don't think I have ever been called a liberal before!!
A sham marriage does not make a corrupt policeman

Kivaro · 26-04-2018 10:51AM

bubblypop wrote: »

You don't know that it would be inadmissible. A Garda in a sham marriage is not necessarily a corrupt cop. Evidence of his career & good work would be heard.
And even if his particular evidence was excluded, it doesn't necessarily have any affect on the outcome of the trial.

Oh good god.

Sorry, but you have to join the ignore list.

Glass fused light · 26-04-2018 10:52AM

bubblypop wrote: »

Gangland convictions?
OK, I will go with this......
I would presume that any court listening to an appeal based on the fact that the Garda was in a sham marriage in order to stay in the country, would be more interested in the evidence being correct.
A court won't just throw out convictions based on maybe, one of the Gardai being in a sham marriage.

He obtained a right of residency, by bribery, forgery of documentation, and lying under oath. Even if its a Gangland conviction and the evidence remained admissible, it has to be assessed in the light of would a reasonable member of the jury have convicted had they been aware of the character of the person collecting it. Eg How much weight would you give to the evidence of someone who admitted to prior carelessness (ie pasted copied words into the wrong file) in the performance of their duties but denied deliberate wrong doing? Whats the evidence worth if they admit to a deliberat prior act.

Do you think that if it's you who was convicted, that the minimum the State owes you is the right to a fair re-trial?

Cordell · 26-04-2018 10:56AM

A Garda in a sham marriage is not necessarily a corrupt cop

Sure, no indication about his character or nothing.
You know what? Hire guards straight out of Mountjoy, none of them lads are corrupt cops, and most are rough and fit, ideal for the job.

gozunda · 26-04-2018 11:22AM

bubblypop wrote: »

You don't know that it would be inadmissible. A Garda in a sham marriage is not necessarily a corrupt cop. Evidence of his career & good work would be heard.
And even if his particular evidence was excluded, it doesn't necessarily have any affect on the outcome of the trial.

When that persons career is based on a lie.

1. Paying an EU national to get illegally married
2. Getting awarded citizenship / residency based on said illegal marriage.
3. Taking up a career which involves upholding and applying the law of the land based on illegal citizenship / residency awarded on the basis of points no.1 & no. 2

There's more - but I really couldn't be arsed tbh ....

26-04-2018 11:34AM

Glass fused light wrote: »

Do you think that if it's you who was convicted, that the minimum the State owes you is the right to a fair re-trial?

Yep, he probably would get a retrial, like I said even if they did find that Gardas evidence inadmissible, the accused can still be found guilty.
Anyway, totally not important, because he was caught.
The immigration unit did their job, & the sham marriage was exposed.
Good result.

irishproduce · 26-04-2018 12:18PM

Kivaro wrote: »

It is truly bizarre the lengths that liberals will go to in order to defend the indefensible just because it involves migrants.

If a member of the Gardai obtained legal residence in this country by perpetrating fraud, then that Garda is corrupt. It isn't only just about the fraudster obtaining a marriage certificate illegally, it involves the subsequent lying and further fraud that was carried out in order to get into the Garda College.

Any evidence in a court case involving that corrupt Garda would be deemed suspect and a defense lawyer worth their salt would have the evidence thrown out based on the character of the corrupt Garda. All of the other cases that the corrupt Garda was involved with would also be suspect, and would cause major disruption to the legal process.

As I understand it, it is for this reason Garda checks on applicants are so detailed, going right out into cousins and uncles/ aunts married into the family. Their character must be unquestionable if they are to be used in the prosecuting of crimes as witnesses.
I am not sure if international applicants, certainly from outside EU are subject to the same checks.

irishproduce · 26-04-2018 12:20PM

bubblypop wrote: »

You don't know that it would be inadmissible. A Garda in a sham marriage is not necessarily a corrupt cop. Evidence of his career & good work would be heard.
And even if his particular evidence was excluded, it doesn't necessarily have any affect on the outcome of the trial.

Fair play to you Bubbly, you are if nothing else, committed to the cause.
The force is strong in this one.

mynamejeff · 26-04-2018 12:32PM

many many well known cases use the evidence of convicted criminals to get convictions especially in gangland cases

the fact that this chap was guilty ( alleged ) would be an issue but not the defining issue of cases

those of you blanking that fact have yer own agendas but then again dont ye always

john Gilligan convicted with a criminal as a witness

The McCarthy-Dundon gang in limerick were run through with rats Owen treacy April colins etc

sorry boys yer talking poo

John_D80 · 26-04-2018 12:59PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

many many well known cases use the evidence of convicted criminals to get convictions especially in gangland cases

the fact that this chap was guilty ( alleged ) would be an issue but not the defining issue of cases

those of you blanking that fact have yer own agendas but then again dont ye always

john Gilligan convicted with a criminal as a witness

The McCarthy-Dundon gang in limerick were run through with rats Owen treacy April colins etc

sorry boys yer talking poo

You are not comparing like with like at all. In the examples you mentioned the criminals/persons of questionable character, are merely sources of evidence.

Garda are responsible for building criminal cases and should be above reproach.

mynamejeff · 26-04-2018 01:12PM

John_D80 wrote: »

You are not comparing like with like at all. In the examples you mentioned the criminals/persons of questionable character, are merely sources of evidence.

Garda are responsible for building criminal cases and should be above reproach.

Actually it is like with like ,

Same judge, same jury , same defense council, same prosecution council,

he would have had to progress a long way from student garda before he was building any kind of serous case ,

as i said before lots of people here just sprouting off about stuff they have no knowledge about ,

as usual

Cordell · 26-04-2018 01:14PM

Not only criminal cases, also the Garda vetting process will be perverted when the one doing the vetting is also himself a criminal.

mynamejeff · 26-04-2018 01:16PM

Cordell wrote: »

Not only criminal cases, also the Garda vetting process will be perverted when the one doing the vetting is also himself a criminal.

vetting is done in Thurlas by civilian civil service staff under minimal garda supervision

Cordell · 26-04-2018 01:22PM

And it's all good if that minimal supervision is performed by a criminal?
If find it unreal that there is even an argument for accepting criminals and fraudsters in the police force. There is none, none whatsoever.

26-04-2018 01:23PM

Seriously, how do you think his marriage was brought to the attention of the immigration unit dealing with sham marriages?

John_D80 · 26-04-2018 01:31PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

Actually it is like with like ,

Same judge, same jury , same defense council, same prosecution council,

he would have had to progress a long way from student garda before he was building any kind of serous case ,

as i said before lots of people here just sprouting off about stuff they have no knowledge about ,

as usual

It’s not at all. Bringing judges and juries into it is just a pure strawman argument.

He may not personally himself ever have been responsible for something as serious as putting together a criminal case but the point is that the gardai as an organization must be seen to be above reproach.

Comparing guards with criminals giving evidence is just stupid.

John_D80 · 26-04-2018 01:32PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Seriously, how do you think his marriage was brought to the attention of the immigration unit dealing with sham marriages?

Enlighten us.

26-04-2018 01:35PM

John_D80 wrote: »

Enlighten us.

Really? Clearly it was flagged during vetting procedure & passed to the relevant unit for Investigation.
Job done.

Glass fused light · 26-04-2018 01:39PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Yep, he probably would get a retrial, like I said even if they did find that Gardas evidence inadmissible, the accused can still be found guilty.

Give me a number between 1 and 100, your solicitor comes in to your jail cell, your new home for a minimum of 10 years, and said
"good news we in court tomorrow we can prove that Garda X, forged document and lying under oath, you have a (0% to 100%) chance at a new fair trial"

bubblypop wrote: »

Anyway, totally not important, because he was caught.
The immigration unit did their job, & the sham marriage was exposed.
Good result.

The taxpayer is funding the Gardai training, salary and the costs of the investigation, we pay for the infrastructure building and staff (prosecution, the judge etc ), likely the defendents cost too. We ask 12 people to do their civic duty as jurors, where they sometimes fear for their personal safety.

The reason we should demand that the Garda be of good character is that when they act on our behalf, with the full power of the State behind them, we should be able to trust that they won't abuse the trust and authority in a way that act against us.

What happen should not be dismissed lightly, it should not be obscured by repeating how an individual has to be more doggy than our home grown variety.

There were two jobs which needed to be done.
One by the immigration unit and one by the Gardai HR unit.

That he was given a right of residency indicates that the immigration unit's process failed to do the job. Its cost v benefit to be 100% accurate, and we have safety nets (including the Gardai) because we accept that failure happens but most won't re-offend.

That he was accepted into training indicates that the HR unit's process failed to do the job, or at least to do it in time to prevent his enrolment. That he eventually got caught is not a good result, he should not have gotten so far to begin with.

John_D80 · 26-04-2018 01:41PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Really? Clearly it was flagged during vetting procedure & passed to the relevant unit for Investigation.
Job done.

Clearly not if him, his spouse and both of their extended families managed to get through the vetting process and he made it all the way to templemore.

If there was any issues flagged he would not have got through to the next stage.

Truth is you have no idea how it came to the authorities attention. Could well have been someone in Tempkemore informed on him.

26-04-2018 01:43PM

I said totally not important, meaning this line of discussion is not important, as in he was a trainee student guard, so talk of court cases & 'gangland convictions' are pointless.

weldoninhio · 26-04-2018 01:45PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Really? Clearly it was flagged during vetting procedure & passed to the relevant unit for Investigation.
Job done.

It has been stated that he was caught under the investigations of Operation Vantage, which has caught a lot of these fraudsters. There has been zero mention of it being flagged during vetting. What possible reason would the Gardai have for letting him continue his training after flagging this and ending up with egg on their face??

What colour is the sky in your world??

John_D80 · 26-04-2018 01:48PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I said totally not important, meaning this line of discussion is not important, as in he was a trainee student guard, so talk of court cases & 'gangland convictions' are pointless.

You do realise that every guard in the force from beat cops right up to the commissioner was once a trainee right??

This discovery and any speculation on potential repercussions is far from pointless.

26-04-2018 01:48PM

John_D80 wrote: »

Clearly not if him, his spouse and both of their extended families managed to get through the vetting process and he made it all the way to templemore.

If there was any issues flagged he would not have got through to the next stage.

Truth is you have no idea how it came to the authorities attention. Could well have been someone in Tempkemore informed on him.

Truth is, you have no idea how the vetting system works in AGS, or how under resourced they are.
Do him, his family, his 'wife' or her family have any previous convictions? Any links to criminal groups?
Truth is, you have no idea. ( either do I, but he wouldn't have got through if they did)
But, if someone during the vetting, or any of the Gardai dealing with him had concerns about his marriage, then they would be passed to the unit dealing with sham marriages for Investigation.
Which is what happened. That unit investigated & he was identified.
So, like I said, job well done.

John_D80 · 26-04-2018 01:54PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Truth is, you have no idea how the vetting system works in AGS, or how under resourced they are.
Do him, his family, his 'wife' or her family have any previous convictions? Any links to criminal groups?
Truth is, you have no idea. ( either do I, but he wouldn't have got through if they did)
But, if someone during the vetting, or any of the Gardai dealing with him had concerns about his marriage, then they would be passed to the unit dealing with sham marriages for Investigation.
Which is what happened. That unit investigated & he was identified.
So, like I said, job well done.

No it’s not what happened at all. Because of there were any flags raised during the vetting process then he would not have progressed further. Can you not understand that?

It highlights an obvious flaw and serious mismanagement in Garda vettings. He was caught by an immigration beureau investigation, NOT the vetting process.

Job well done my hole.

Oh and don’t presume to know what I do and don’t know about the vetting process.

26-04-2018 01:56PM

John_D80 wrote: »

Oh and don’t presume to know what I do and don’t know about the vetting process.

Don't presume to know what I do & don't know either....

John_D80 · 26-04-2018 01:57PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Don't presume to know what I do & don't know either....

Well when you are blatantly and obviously wrong you’re gonna get pulled up on it.

Glass fused light · 26-04-2018 02:04PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I said totally not important, meaning this line of discussion is not important, as in he was a trainee student guard, so talk of court cases & 'gangland convictions' are pointless.

Give me a number between 1 and 100, your solicitor comes in to your jail cell, your new home for a minimum of 10 years, and said
"good news we in court tomorrow we can prove that Garda X, forged document and lying under oath, you have a (0% to 100%) chance at a new fair trial"

What's your number?

26-04-2018 02:10PM

Glass fused light wrote: »

lying under oath,

What's this about, lying under oath?
Like I said, this is a pointless discussion because the Gardai did their job & exposed a sham marriage.

Bangladeshi Trainee Garda and His Sham Marriage

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