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New Master Plan for Cherrywood

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    According to 'Live Drive' this morning they are monitoring and calibrating it during this week. Either way it will be a lot slower than the roundabout because of the addition of pedestrian phases where all motor traffic is stopped, as wouldnt have happened before.

    Im planning to avoid for the next fortnight at least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,290 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    Loads of people were late into work today because of the M50 tailbacks in both directions. Lots of people planning on using the N11 and exiting at different junctions instead tomorrow, N11 likely to be busier than normal I'd guess as a result. God only knows what the traffic will be like when the town centre is built in a few years.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭markpb


    Supercell wrote: »
    Loads of people were late into work today because of the M50 tailbacks in both directions. Lots of people planning on using the N11 and exiting at different junctions instead tomorrow, N11 likely to be busier than normal I'd guess as a result. God only knows what the traffic will be like when the town centre is built in a few years.

    To be fair, this week was always going to be bad as people adjust to the new road layout and as the timing of the traffic lights are changed. It's too early to judge what the long term effect will be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭Thestones


    Supercell wrote: »
    Loads of people were late into work today because of the M50 tailbacks in both directions. Lots of people planning on using the N11 and exiting at different junctions instead tomorrow, N11 likely to be busier than normal I'd guess as a result. God only knows what the traffic will be like when the town centre is built in a few years.

    The traffic was awful in the whole cabinteely area this morning, I think people are avoiding the cherrywood area/wyattville road where possible which in turn is causing traffic congestion elsewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭DMcL1971


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    According to 'Live Drive' this morning they are monitoring and calibrating it during this week. Either way it will be a lot slower than the roundabout because of the addition of pedestrian phases where all motor traffic is stopped, as wouldnt have happened before.

    Im planning to avoid for the next fortnight at least.

    The footpaths are not finished yet so the pedestrian phase hasn’t even been added yet.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,180 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Supercell wrote: »
    Loads of people were late into work today because of the M50 tailbacks in both directions. Lots of people planning on using the N11 and exiting at different junctions instead tomorrow, N11 likely to be busier than normal I'd guess as a result. God only knows what the traffic will be like when the town centre is built in a few years.
    Could be a good thing, lots of them should consider cycling or using busses or the LUAS


  • Company Representative Posts: 26 Verified rep Green Party: Ossian Smyth


    The main developer says that Cherywood will be so easy to walk or cycle around and so full of amenities that it will be like Ranelagh. To me, it looks like the planned roads and junctions for Cherrywood are built for high car capacity. I expect that Cherrywood will be a town with the atmosphere of Sandyford Business District or Tallaght- high density with heavy traffic on wide noisy roads, driving short distances from one car park to another.

    Cherrywood-Hines-TC-c2-r1-1-768x384.jpg

    Cian Ginty has a good summary of the cycling aspects of Cherrywood's plans here:
    http://irishcycle.com/2017/11/19/cherrywood-is-yet-another-missed-opportunity-to-get-cycling-right-in-ireland/


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,180 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Where’s the sandyford business district? If that a fancy name for sandyford industrial estate?


  • Company Representative Posts: 26 Verified rep Green Party: Ossian Smyth


    It's what they want be called now and includes the neighbouring office parks in Stillorgan, Leopardstown, Central Park etc

    http://www.sandyford.ie/


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,290 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    The main developer says that Cherywood will be so easy to walk or cycle around and so full of amenities that it will be like Ranelagh. To me, it looks like the planned roads and junctions for Cherrywood are built for high car capacity. I expect that Cherrywood will be a town with the atmosphere of Sandyford Business District or Tallaght- high density with heavy traffic on wide noisy roads, driving short distances from one car park to another.

    Cian Ginty has a good summary of the cycling aspects of Cherrywood's plans here:
    http://irishcycle.com/2017/11/19/cherrywood-is-yet-another-missed-opportunity-to-get-cycling-right-in-ireland/

    I sincerely hope not, talk about soulless, depressing places, surely lessons have been learned this time?
    The public parks sound quite nice, which Tallaght and Sandyford don't have to my knowledge?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    I've recently noticed that Wyatville Junction at Cherrywood in the direction of the M50 there are lanes with dead-ends. Was there another review of the junction design done since they started converting it?


  • Company Representative Posts: 26 Verified rep Green Party: Ossian Smyth


    I have photos of the plans for the junction and of the actual construction from last month from the same orientation, so that you may compare. If anything doesn't match, let me know.

    cherrywood-revised-1.png


    aerialjuncmar18.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,290 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    The left lane doesnt look like the plan.
    There is a weird third lane (heading towards the old roundabout) that has been built as if it was intended to be the right turn but then meets the traffic lights island, was wondering what on earth it was built for? I'm guessing this is what Patrick is referring to?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭The \/\/anderer


    I've noticed these mystery lanes too. One of them is on the left before the new junction as you're heading to the M50. Looks like it was intended as a left filter into the business park, but it just ends suddenly and then the pavement begins. I can only assume it's something to do with the cycle lanes and hasn't been finished yet.

    I wish they would finish off this junction properly and remove the cones and temporary signs etc. Work has been going on for ages. There's not much left to do, but it's been in the same state for ages. Every so often there's a bit more done, but it feels like it'll never be finished. Also, the lights coming from Tullyvale don't give enough time on green. Even if you're the first car at the lights, they go orange by the time you're half way through the junction.

    Also the quality of workmanship is very poor. If you get a chance to walk around the area, you'll notice this. New drains and metal access covers on the paths are rusty and covered in concrete. The soil on the verges isn't finished properly spills onto the paths. Stones and debris everywhere. Water not draining very well from the roads, leaving puddles in some areas. Doesn't bode well for the rest of the development.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,180 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Heading towards the M50 they put the bus stop on the main part if the road , if they moved it forward 10m it wouldn’t obstruct traffic when stopped as it bevin the big lay by. Could be a bus terminus, taxi rank or anything.

    As for the mystery lane in the right it could be a bus lay or a bike lane.

    I’m sure all we be revealed when it’s finished


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭markpb


    ted1 wrote: »
    Heading towards the M50 they put the bus stop on the main part if the road , if they moved it forward 10m it wouldn’t obstruct traffic when stopped as it bevin the big lay by.

    I can't speak for Dublin but research in London has shown that it's better for the bus network if bus stops aren't fully recessed. It turns out that the average motorist doesn't consider the needs of the many people on the bus when the driver is indicating that they want to reenter traffic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭shawnxxiong


    Just wondering is there any news for the residential new build in cherrywood?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    I have photos of the plans for the junction and of the actual construction from last month from the same orientation, so that you may compare. If anything doesn't match, let me know.

    cherrywood-revised-1.png


    aerialjuncmar18.png

    One bus lane in the direction of the M50 is missing as well as the bus lane supposedly going from Tully Vale Road left on to the Wyatville Link Road.

    Next, the outer lane turning from the Wyatville Link Road on to Cherrywood Avenue has been omitted and comes to an abrupt stop at the traffic lights.

    So, it is quite a bit different from the map drawing on top.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    markpb wrote: »
    I can't speak for Dublin but research in London has shown that it's better for the bus network if bus stops aren't fully recessed. It turns out that the average motorist doesn't consider the needs of the many people on the bus when the driver is indicating that they want to reenter traffic.

    That does hold true in many instances where the bus stop is recessed from a general purpose lane and not a bus lane like those on the N11.

    Having said that, if the bus stop isn't recessed from a general purpose lane, motorists wind up getting stuck behind the bus.

    Also, given that it is quite difficult to anticipate when the bus will indicate out of the recessed bus stop, motorists may pass at the moment they indicate.

    Overall, this is a design flaw with many roads where one would expect the lane next to a recessed bus stop to be a bus lane where no consideration would otherwise be needed.




  • Having said that, if the bus stop isn't recessed from a general purpose lane, motorists wind up getting stuck behind the bus.

    Which wouldn't be a big deal if Dublin Bus dwell times weren't so long, but thats a discussion for a whole other thread.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,290 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    The other thing that's struck me is that they have managed to take a perfectly straight road and made full of bends and turns which seems counter to whats done in most other countries (unles you want traffic calming, but in Cherrywood its gridlock most of the time anyhow now since the roundabout removal). In the evenings you cannot get out of the park sometimes because the little roundabout is blocked by people trying to slide left onto the M50 road. It seems a completely counterintuitive mess with acres of overly wide concrete paths everywhere, very little greenery and a confusing road layout.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Its far from finished yet.


  • Company Representative Posts: 26 Verified rep Green Party: Ossian Smyth


    Latest image of this junction:
    cherrywood-junc-april.png

    I spoke to the traffic section today to ask why the left and rightmost lanes heading toward the M50 are closed. They told me :

    "As part of the development of the Cherrywood SDZ a large signalised junction is required, at this location, to cater for both the existing and future traffic volumes through the area. However at present there is no traffic being generated from the main Cherrywood SDZ area, apart from construction traffic.

    Therefore the view was taken to construct the full signalised junction at this stage, but to open it in phases in line with the development demands within the Cherrywood SDZ.

    This approach reduces the amount of construction work that will be required along the Wyattville Link Road going forward, while still allowing the junction to be able to address the current demands, but to be easily expanded and new slip roads open as future development comes on stream. This can be done with minimum disruption to local residents and businesses
    ."


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭DMcL1971


    Thank you Ossian. That makes sense, all they have to do is remove the curb sections at the lights in order to open the two lanes when necessary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Thanks for that Ossian. Now, with all that has been said in the past 2 pages, let's hope that there is a massive increase in the amount of public transport to negate the need for opening these lanes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Thanks for that Ossian. Now, with all that has been said in the past 2 pages, let's hope that there is a massive increase in the amount of public transport to negate the need for opening these lanes.

    Thats very naïve. With the best will in the world, private cars will still feature heavily in the lives of the 20,000 or so folks eventually living in Cherrywood. Look at Belarmine and Stepaside, they were designed in such a way to try and limit car ownership on the site, but like floodwater, they found their own level.

    Yes, people want a quality public transport option to commute, but outside of that still want a private car for their social and family lives. Cherrywood may be designed to limit the presence of cars, but every possible space to keep one will be immediately taken up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    ...
    Therefore the view was taken to construct the full signalised junction at this stage, but to open it in phases in line with the development demands within the Cherrywood SDZ.

    That's pretty crazy tbh, what's the sense in pulling up all the lights, concrete, curbing etc at some stage in the future to do what they should be doing now and incur huge costs in doing it all again? Why not just do it now as part of the overall works. It's not like its greenery or anything nice or beneficial, just concrete vs tarmac

    edit: have they deleted some of the cycle lanes along with the bus lane coming from the bottom of the photo across the junction?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Thats very naïve.

    Good lord! Any time I post here or on other threads, there is always something you find a fault in.
    Larbre34 wrote: »
    With the best will in the world, private cars will still feature heavily in the lives of the 20,000 or so folks eventually living in Cherrywood.

    The current levels of car use nevermind those that will be generated by the additional 30000 population are a direct result of a disorganized and bureaucratic public transport system. Too many people justifying their existence and hindering efficiency in the process.
    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Look at Belarmine and Stepaside, they were designed in such a way to try and limit car ownership on the site, but like floodwater, they found their own level.

    The transport in Belarmine and Stepaside is pretty awful it has to be said. From what I can see, very few, if any new routes were introduced when the developments went up in those areas. They were probably the type of tweaks to existing routes which resulted in the kind of meandering which currently plagues the 75 bus among others. The frequency of buses in these areas isn't too inviting either.
    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Yes, people want a quality public transport option to commute, but outside of that still want a private car for their social and family lives.

    From what I have seen, social and family visits are at the bottom of the priority list where public transport is concerned. It all seems to be business sense whereby outside of business hours, buses run every 30 minutes or less. The only bus routes I can see which are attractive are the 46A and 145 due to their frequency and their routing. If only they applied this type of frequency to more of their routes, private car usage would naturally drop.
    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Cherrywood may be designed to limit the presence of cars, but every possible space to keep one will be immediately taken up.

    If you limit the presence of cars without providing a public transport incentive, it becomes like the cart before the horse. So, of course people will continue using the car. For every additional 30000 people, there should be at least 2 more dedicated bus routes introduced instead of the stingy method of making use of existing resources.


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Awaaf


    I wouldn't hold my breadth for public transport to improve for Cherrywood.

    Sandyford Industrial Estate is there for 30 years or so (I guess) and its link to its hinterland to the East (i.e. the old DL borough) is a couple of diverted 75s (half-hourly) and a couple of 114s (45-minutely) each morning. Parking there seems quite restricted (by planning?) as a stick measure but the carrot?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Awaaf wrote: »
    I wouldn't hold my breadth for public transport to improve for Cherrywood.

    Sandyford Industrial Estate is there for 30 years or so (I guess) and its link to its hinterland to the East (i.e. the old DL borough) is a couple of diverted 75s (half-hourly) and a couple of 114s (45-minutely) each morning. Parking there seems quite restricted (by planning?) as a stick measure but the carrot?

    Eh, Luas?


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