New Master Plan for Cherrywood

patrickbrophy18 · 04-04-2018 10:02pm

I've recently noticed that Wyatville Junction at Cherrywood in the direction of the M50 there are lanes with dead-ends. Was there another review of the junction design done since they started converting it?

Green Party: Ossian Smyth · 05-04-2018 11:21am

I have photos of the plans for the junction and of the actual construction from last month from the same orientation, so that you may compare. If anything doesn't match, let me know.

Supercell · 05-04-2018 4:31pm

The left lane doesnt look like the plan.
There is a weird third lane (heading towards the old roundabout) that has been built as if it was intended to be the right turn but then meets the traffic lights island, was wondering what on earth it was built for? I'm guessing this is what Patrick is referring to?

The \/\/anderer · 07-04-2018 11:12am

I've noticed these mystery lanes too. One of them is on the left before the new junction as you're heading to the M50. Looks like it was intended as a left filter into the business park, but it just ends suddenly and then the pavement begins. I can only assume it's something to do with the cycle lanes and hasn't been finished yet.

I wish they would finish off this junction properly and remove the cones and temporary signs etc. Work has been going on for ages. There's not much left to do, but it's been in the same state for ages. Every so often there's a bit more done, but it feels like it'll never be finished. Also, the lights coming from Tullyvale don't give enough time on green. Even if you're the first car at the lights, they go orange by the time you're half way through the junction.

Also the quality of workmanship is very poor. If you get a chance to walk around the area, you'll notice this. New drains and metal access covers on the paths are rusty and covered in concrete. The soil on the verges isn't finished properly spills onto the paths. Stones and debris everywhere. Water not draining very well from the roads, leaving puddles in some areas. Doesn't bode well for the rest of the development.

ted1 · 07-04-2018 3:23pm

Heading towards the M50 they put the bus stop on the main part if the road , if they moved it forward 10m it wouldn’t obstruct traffic when stopped as it bevin the big lay by. Could be a bus terminus, taxi rank or anything.

As for the mystery lane in the right it could be a bus lay or a bike lane.

I’m sure all we be revealed when it’s finished

markpb · 07-04-2018 3:35pm

ted1 wrote: »

Heading towards the M50 they put the bus stop on the main part if the road , if they moved it forward 10m it wouldn’t obstruct traffic when stopped as it bevin the big lay by.

I can't speak for Dublin but research in London has shown that it's better for the bus network if bus stops aren't fully recessed. It turns out that the average motorist doesn't consider the needs of the many people on the bus when the driver is indicating that they want to reenter traffic.

shawnxxiong · 10-04-2018 12:33pm

Just wondering is there any news for the residential new build in cherrywood?

patrickbrophy18 · 19-04-2018 12:18am

Green Party: Ossian Smyth wrote: »

I have photos of the plans for the junction and of the actual construction from last month from the same orientation, so that you may compare. If anything doesn't match, let me know.

One bus lane in the direction of the M50 is missing as well as the bus lane supposedly going from Tully Vale Road left on to the Wyatville Link Road.

Next, the outer lane turning from the Wyatville Link Road on to Cherrywood Avenue has been omitted and comes to an abrupt stop at the traffic lights.

So, it is quite a bit different from the map drawing on top.

patrickbrophy18 · 19-04-2018 12:24am

markpb wrote: »

I can't speak for Dublin but research in London has shown that it's better for the bus network if bus stops aren't fully recessed. It turns out that the average motorist doesn't consider the needs of the many people on the bus when the driver is indicating that they want to reenter traffic.

That does hold true in many instances where the bus stop is recessed from a general purpose lane and not a bus lane like those on the N11.

Having said that, if the bus stop isn't recessed from a general purpose lane, motorists wind up getting stuck behind the bus.

Also, given that it is quite difficult to anticipate when the bus will indicate out of the recessed bus stop, motorists may pass at the moment they indicate.

Overall, this is a design flaw with many roads where one would expect the lane next to a recessed bus stop to be a bus lane where no consideration would otherwise be needed.

19-04-2018 3:58am

Having said that, if the bus stop isn't recessed from a general purpose lane, motorists wind up getting stuck behind the bus.

Which wouldn't be a big deal if Dublin Bus dwell times weren't so long, but thats a discussion for a whole other thread.

Supercell · 19-04-2018 7:40am

The other thing that's struck me is that they have managed to take a perfectly straight road and made full of bends and turns which seems counter to whats done in most other countries (unles you want traffic calming, but in Cherrywood its gridlock most of the time anyhow now since the roundabout removal). In the evenings you cannot get out of the park sometimes because the little roundabout is blocked by people trying to slide left onto the M50 road. It seems a completely counterintuitive mess with acres of overly wide concrete paths everywhere, very little greenery and a confusing road layout.

Larbre34 · 22-04-2018 6:03pm

Its far from finished yet.

Green Party: Ossian Smyth · 25-04-2018 12:31pm

Latest image of this junction:

I spoke to the traffic section today to ask why the left and rightmost lanes heading toward the M50 are closed. They told me :

"As part of the development of the Cherrywood SDZ a large signalised junction is required, at this location, to cater for both the existing and future traffic volumes through the area. However at present there is no traffic being generated from the main Cherrywood SDZ area, apart from construction traffic.

Therefore the view was taken to construct the full signalised junction at this stage, but to open it in phases in line with the development demands within the Cherrywood SDZ.

This approach reduces the amount of construction work that will be required along the Wyattville Link Road going forward, while still allowing the junction to be able to address the current demands, but to be easily expanded and new slip roads open as future development comes on stream. This can be done with minimum disruption to local residents and businesses."

DMcL1971 · 25-04-2018 4:01pm

Thank you Ossian. That makes sense, all they have to do is remove the curb sections at the lights in order to open the two lanes when necessary.

patrickbrophy18 · 25-04-2018 9:58pm

Thanks for that Ossian. Now, with all that has been said in the past 2 pages, let's hope that there is a massive increase in the amount of public transport to negate the need for opening these lanes.

Larbre34 · 25-04-2018 11:10pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Thanks for that Ossian. Now, with all that has been said in the past 2 pages, let's hope that there is a massive increase in the amount of public transport to negate the need for opening these lanes.

Thats very naïve. With the best will in the world, private cars will still feature heavily in the lives of the 20,000 or so folks eventually living in Cherrywood. Look at Belarmine and Stepaside, they were designed in such a way to try and limit car ownership on the site, but like floodwater, they found their own level.

Yes, people want a quality public transport option to commute, but outside of that still want a private car for their social and family lives. Cherrywood may be designed to limit the presence of cars, but every possible space to keep one will be immediately taken up.

Cookie_Monster · 25-04-2018 11:50pm

Green Party: Ossian Smyth wrote: »

...
Therefore the view was taken to construct the full signalised junction at this stage, but to open it in phases in line with the development demands within the Cherrywood SDZ.

That's pretty crazy tbh, what's the sense in pulling up all the lights, concrete, curbing etc at some stage in the future to do what they should be doing now and incur huge costs in doing it all again? Why not just do it now as part of the overall works. It's not like its greenery or anything nice or beneficial, just concrete vs tarmac

edit: have they deleted some of the cycle lanes along with the bus lane coming from the bottom of the photo across the junction?

patrickbrophy18 · 26-04-2018 12:20am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Thats very naïve.

Good lord! Any time I post here or on other threads, there is always something you find a fault in.

Larbre34 wrote: »

With the best will in the world, private cars will still feature heavily in the lives of the 20,000 or so folks eventually living in Cherrywood.

The current levels of car use nevermind those that will be generated by the additional 30000 population are a direct result of a disorganized and bureaucratic public transport system. Too many people justifying their existence and hindering efficiency in the process.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Look at Belarmine and Stepaside, they were designed in such a way to try and limit car ownership on the site, but like floodwater, they found their own level.

The transport in Belarmine and Stepaside is pretty awful it has to be said. From what I can see, very few, if any new routes were introduced when the developments went up in those areas. They were probably the type of tweaks to existing routes which resulted in the kind of meandering which currently plagues the 75 bus among others. The frequency of buses in these areas isn't too inviting either.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yes, people want a quality public transport option to commute, but outside of that still want a private car for their social and family lives.

From what I have seen, social and family visits are at the bottom of the priority list where public transport is concerned. It all seems to be business sense whereby outside of business hours, buses run every 30 minutes or less. The only bus routes I can see which are attractive are the 46A and 145 due to their frequency and their routing. If only they applied this type of frequency to more of their routes, private car usage would naturally drop.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Cherrywood may be designed to limit the presence of cars, but every possible space to keep one will be immediately taken up.

If you limit the presence of cars without providing a public transport incentive, it becomes like the cart before the horse. So, of course people will continue using the car. For every additional 30000 people, there should be at least 2 more dedicated bus routes introduced instead of the stingy method of making use of existing resources.

Awaaf · 26-04-2018 9:00am

I wouldn't hold my breadth for public transport to improve for Cherrywood.

Sandyford Industrial Estate is there for 30 years or so (I guess) and its link to its hinterland to the East (i.e. the old DL borough) is a couple of diverted 75s (half-hourly) and a couple of 114s (45-minutely) each morning. Parking there seems quite restricted (by planning?) as a stick measure but the carrot?

Larbre34 · 26-04-2018 1:10pm

Awaaf wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breadth for public transport to improve for Cherrywood.

Sandyford Industrial Estate is there for 30 years or so (I guess) and its link to its hinterland to the East (i.e. the old DL borough) is a couple of diverted 75s (half-hourly) and a couple of 114s (45-minutely) each morning. Parking there seems quite restricted (by planning?) as a stick measure but the carrot?

Eh, Luas?

Awaaf · 26-04-2018 1:28pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Eh, Luas?

Eh, East?

ted1 · 26-04-2018 1:32pm

Awaaf wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breadth for public transport to improve for Cherrywood.

Sandyford Industrial Estate is there for 30 years or so (I guess) and its link to its hinterland to the East (i.e. the old DL borough) is a couple of diverted 75s (half-hourly) and a couple of 114s (45-minutely) each morning. Parking there seems quite restricted (by planning?) as a stick measure but the carrot?

Have you honestly never heard of the LUAS? Or the upgraded metrolink?

Awaaf · 26-04-2018 1:49pm

ted1 wrote: »

Have you honestly never heard of the LUAS? Or the upgraded metrolink?

Yes indeed it must be fantastic and a great source of pride for those living north and south of the Industrial Estate. Now back to my issue if you don't mind

ted1 · 26-04-2018 2:11pm

Awaaf wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Have you honestly never heard of the LUAS? Or the upgraded metrolink?

Yes indeed it must be fantastic and a great source of pride for those living north and south of the Industrial Estate. Now back to my issue if you don't mind

Which is what ? The existing LUAS is being upgraded, the planned and built future stops will open. Cycle tracks and bus lanes are being provided and upgraded.

The LUAS links up with busses that serve DL. There’s also busses which link up.

Awaaf · 26-04-2018 3:23pm

ted1 wrote: »

The LUAS links up with busses that serve DL. There’s also busses which link up.

Apologies I hadn't (and still don't) consider the Luas being relevant to accessing the SBD from the East but since you feel it is I will include it below.

So we have DL-SBD (Sandyford Business District) links in the morning as follows:

(direct): 2 (no.) diverted 75s (half-hourly) and 2-3 (no.) 114s (45-minutely)
(indirect): a few 63's to Carrickmines Luas (via Cabinteely/Cornelscourt) and then Luas to the bottom of the SBD.
(partial): 75/46a to Brewery Road (or maybe Kilmacud on the 75) and Shanks Mare

anything else?

I can't see that diverting too many people out of their cars.

astrofool · 27-04-2018 3:51pm

To be fair, Awaaf has a point, Sandyford industrial Estate is also woefully linked up for public transport, unless you live along the Luas line, the bus services are a joke, and it's even worse in Cherrywood.

Just as the Dart is great if your work is near it and you live near it, basically buses are useless unless you're heading to the city centre

LXFlyer · 29-04-2018 10:05am

Awaaf wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breadth for public transport to improve for Cherrywood.

Sandyford Industrial Estate is there for 30 years or so (I guess) and its link to its hinterland to the East (i.e. the old DL borough) is a couple of diverted 75s (half-hourly) and a couple of 114s (45-minutely) each morning. Parking there seems quite restricted (by planning?) as a stick measure but the carrot?

We will have to wait and see what the BusConnects plan includes for the area.

To be fair Dublin Bus had planned to re-route the 75 and a new orbital route 175 all day via Sandyford Industrial Estate under Network Direct, but the plans got canned due to lack of funds as the recession bit.

Cherrywood, when it is developed, will need a massive increase in local bus routes - the 7, 84, 84a and 111 will certainly all need to be beefed up significantly and other routes possibly developed.

29-04-2018 8:44pm

Various members of my extended family have been working in Sandyford Industrial Estate since the 80s, the only public transport improvement we have ever seen (Knocklyon/Firhouse/Tallaght) has been the 75 which is useless for commuting.

It has always been commute by car and it looks like it will remain that way for at least the next decade or two.

astrofool · 29-04-2018 10:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Various members of my extended family have been working in Sandyford Industrial Estate since the 80s, the only public transport improvement we have ever seen (Knocklyon/Firhouse/Tallaght) has been the 75 which is useless for commuting.

It has always been commute by car and it looks like it will remain that way for at least the next decade or two.

One, maybe 2 motorway junctions away, and over an hour away by public transport, you'd be mad not to use a car.

ted1 · 29-04-2018 11:17pm

A third option is cycling

LXFlyer · 30-04-2018 12:47am

astrofool wrote: »

One, maybe 2 motorway junctions away, and over an hour away by public transport, you'd be mad not to use a car.

To be fair if the realigned (straightened) 75 and new 175 had happened it would have been a massive improvement in east/west transport to/from the Sandyford Business Park. Instead the service is so limited to be rendered not far off useless. Traffic in the business park is also woeful - bus lanes are badly needed.

markpb · 30-04-2018 7:57am

LXFlyer wrote: »

bus lanes are badly needed.

I can't see any of the existing roads inside the estate being covered to bus lanes. The council suffered incredible abuse when they were changed Blackthorn road to two way and added a cycle lane, removing a lane of traffic would be unthinkable. Not to mention the one existing bus lane along Burton Hall road extension is entirely and routinely disregarded.

Their plans for adding a footpath and cycle lane between the estate and the village are laughable, amounting to no more than some red paint and a complete unwillingness to interfere with vehicular traffic.

30-04-2018 3:49pm

ted1 wrote: »

A third option is cycling

Cycling is no more public transport than walking is unfortunately.

markpb · 30-04-2018 4:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Cycling is no more public transport than walking is unfortunately.

Why is that?

30-04-2018 5:31pm

markpb wrote: »

Why is that?

Because public transport doesn't include individual journeys using individual motive power.

I would have thought that was obvious.

markpb · 30-04-2018 5:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Because public transport doesn't include individual journeys using individual motive power

If you're planning for transport, you have to plan for every option. Some people will have fixed requirements which mean they must walk, drive or take a bus/train. Some people have the flexibility to choose between several options. Ignoring cycling because it's not public transport means not giving people all the information they need to make a decision.

30-04-2018 6:48pm

markpb wrote: »

If you're planning for transport, you have to plan for every option. Some people will have fixed requirements which mean they must walk, drive or take a bus/train. Some people have the flexibility to choose between several options. Ignoring cycling because it's not public transport means not giving people all the information they need to make a decision.

Who said "ignore cycling" exactly?

ted1 · 30-04-2018 7:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

A third option is cycling

Cycling is no more public transport than walking is unfortunately.

Exactly that’s why I stated a third option.

1.) public transport
2.) car
3.) cycling

30-04-2018 7:19pm

ted1 wrote: »

Exactly that’s why I stated a third option.

1.) public transport
2.) car
3.) cycling

Why did you reply to a series of posts talking about the lack of public transport to Sandyford to just throw in a random comment about the fact that people are able to cycle?

I don't see any sort of 'exactly' anything.

Also, why no mention of walking, car-pooling, hitchiking or jogging while you're busy throwing out non-sequiturs?

*shrug*

ted1 · 30-04-2018 7:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Exactly that’s why I stated a third option.

1.) public transport
2.) car
3.) cycling

Why did you reply to a series of posts talking about the lack of public transport to Sandyford to just throw in a random comment about the fact that people are able to cycle?

I don't see any sort of 'exactly' anything.

Also, why no mention of walking, car-pooling, hitchiking or jogging while you're busy throwing out non-sequiturs?

*shrug*

You were complaining about lack of public transport. , then stated the only option was to drive.

I gave you a 3rd option to which you seem to be upset about.

I didn’t mention walking because it’s to slow.
Car pooling would is shrewdly covered by the car option as you never stated that you where talking about a single occupancy car.
In many cases cycling is faster than both public transport and private motor car.

*shrug*
As for hitch hiking , at this stage you are just being obnoxious.
The three I listed would be the three most commonly used modes of transport

Also the thread is about cherrywood not sandyford

30-04-2018 7:47pm

ted1 wrote: »

You were complaining about lack of public transport. , then stated the only option was to drive.

I gave you a 3rd option to which you seem to be upset about.

I'm not upset, I just don't understand why

a) The other user seemed unaware that nowhere is cycling considered a form of public transport

b) You're interjecting irrelevant waffle about cycling being an option.

If every time someone posts something about cycling as commuting should I chip in with a stupid reply about 'walking being an option'? Or when people complain about lack of cycle lanes, should I obnoxiously reply that they're forgetting about the option of commuting by bus or car?

Also, noting the lack of something isn't the same as complaining about something.

Also the thread is about cherrywood not sandyford

I didn't bring up Sandyford, I replied to a post about it.

You can put yourself back in your box now.

Awaaf · 30-04-2018 9:23pm

It was I who mentioned Sandyford in the Cherrywood context. I did so purely to make the point that IMHO there is little hope for good public transport (in the directions not served by the Luas) for Cherrywood if Sandyford is anything to go by.

LXFlyer · 01-05-2018 9:11am

Awaaf wrote: »

It was I who mentioned Sandyford in the Cherrywood context. I did so purely to make the point that IMHO there is little hope for good public transport (in the directions not served by the Luas) for Cherrywood if Sandyford is anything to go by.

Again we will have to see what BusConnects offers.

As I said the plan before was for two east/west all day routes but that got canned due to the recession.

loyatemu · 17-05-2018 4:17pm

the renders of the new Cherrywood show the luas running down the main street - so is it planned to raise the buildings up to the level of the existing viaduct?

patrickbrophy18 · 18-05-2018 12:29am

loyatemu wrote: »

the renders of the new Cherrywood show the luas running down the main street - so is it planned to raise the buildings up to the level of the existing viaduct?

It is indeed. There are going to be a few artificially raised road ways to serve the planned town center. You can see the overall plan for the Cherrywood Development at the following address:

http://www.cherrywooddublin.com/masterplan/

You can zoom in and see how the exact layout of the road will be. So the reason for the dips in elevation would be the planned basement car parks which will serve it. There will also be tree-lined boulevards.

ted1 · 20-05-2018 8:46pm

Garda just shot the suspected kidnapper up there

Thargor · 20-05-2018 8:51pm

ted1 wrote: »

Garda just shot the suspected kidnapper up there

Was that part of the Cherrywood Master Plan do you think?

slavetothegrind · 20-05-2018 9:01pm

what super form of transport is getting you to the city centre in 25 minutes as claimed in the plan?

slavetothegrind · 20-05-2018 9:03pm

sorry, realised it was at 4 in the morning via car on empty roads therefore a legitimate claim.......

ted1 · 20-05-2018 10:31pm

slavetothegrind wrote: »

what super form of transport is getting you to the city centre in 25 minutes as claimed in the plan?

METRO, car and bike

New Master Plan for Cherrywood

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