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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #8852
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    The 8th already allows termination of pregnancy with no time limits at all in cases of suicidality, so this is not a change due to repealing the 8th.

    The prolifers made 2 attempts to change that by referendum and failed each time, 35-65 in 1992 and a 49.6-50.4 squeaker in 2002, so this scenario has been upheld twice already by referendum.

    Really goes to show how low their opinion of mental health is.


  • #8853
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8854
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Gerry Mandarin wrote: »
    Well, what does this mean then? (Asking sincerely):



    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.
    How exactly will this be assessed? More detail is needed in my opinion.
    I'm for repealing the 8th but the wishy-washy vagueness of the proposed legislation is very worrying.

    Maybe she is suicidal.

    Did I read something about having agreement from 2 doctors on suicidal grounds?


  • #8855
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Gerry Mandarin wrote: »
    Well, what does this mean then? (Asking sincerely):



    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.
    How exactly will this be assessed? More detail is needed in my opinion.
    I'm for repealing the 8th but the wishy-washy vagueness of the proposed legislation is very worrying.

    What's been published is just an outline of the legislation, to inform the discussion. It's not meant to be the full detail of post referendum law, which would be more fleshed out by the time it's passed. The final legislation would also be supported by clinical guidelines from the relevant medical bodies and regulators.


  • #8856
    Jimbob1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    In theory, if the amendment was repealed, could the Dail legislate for greater than 12 weeks?


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  • #8857
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,142 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Gintonious wrote: »
    https://www.save8.ie

    Tis up on their site, John McGuirk was on a roll again from what I could gather, he has me blocked so I just get snippets now and then.

    If he is retired though...

    B-b-but Repeal Shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeld!


  • #8858
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    bubblypop wrote: »
    It is to repeal, or not, the 8th amendment. Which gives the unborn an equal right to life as the mother.
    I can't believe you don't know this? I am not in the country at the moment, so I don't know how much information there is. Is there some lack of knowledge surrounding the referendum?

    Many of us live in a bubble of information and education. I am not surprised a lot of people do not know much about this.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #8859
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,914 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    In theory, if the amendment was repealed, could the Dail legislate for greater than 12 weeks?


    In theory they could legislate whatever way they want. Or not legislate at all. To do so would probably be political suicide and they are not totally stupid.


  • #8860
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Maybe she is suicidal.

    Did I read something about having agreement from 2 doctors on suicidal grounds?

    In the proposed legislation, all abortions would require agreement of two doctors, except in the the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, or in emergency situations.


  • #8861
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Looks like this has gone a bit further on to the International stage

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4Pk1d0ob1w


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  • #8862
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    In theory, if the amendment was repealed, could the Dail legislate for greater than 12 weeks?

    Yes. That's the idea, to allow the Dail to legislate.

    But given that it took the Dail 25 years to introduce POLDPA to allow abortion in line with the 1992 X case judgement, I think it is safe to say that abortion is a toxic issue in the Dail. Given that the Citizen's Assembly recommendations give them someone else to blame, I think it is very unlikely they will do more then the minimum the CA recommended so that they have to take the blame themselves, or that they will revisit the issue anytime in the next 25 years.


  • #8863
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Smertrius wrote: »
    what if a teenager becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion,

    The thing is though, that here in 2018 she does have a type of freedom to have an abortion. If I wanted an abortion right now I'd go on the on the internet and buy the pills. A quick google says that the people who help you get one ask for a donation of around €80. Babysitting will get you most of that but if it didn't, reading between the lines, I believe the people who get these pills won't turn away a broke teenager even if it means paying for it from their own pocket sometimes.

    Anyone in that early stage of pregnancy who really, really wants an abortion has means to get one. So it's really a question of whether we want to force girls and women to do this illegally. Potentially unsafely. Without appropriate medical care. Usually later into their pregnancy. Without follow up care. With the fear of a 14 year jail sentence hanging over them and making them too terrified to seek help if something goes wrong. The abortion is going to happen one way or the other, the 8th doesn't protect the unborn it just makes life really, really, extra shít for anyone having an abortion because they have to travel or take illegally obtained medication.

    All retaining the 8th will do is punish women who have abortions. And as collateral damage for that punishment every other woman of child-bearing age is at risk, especially when she is pregnant. And families enduring the heartbreak of discovering their wanted pregnancy is not capable of surviving are left without care. So when it comes to deciding which way to vote, it just really boils down to whether or not punishing women for having abortions matters more to you than ensuring pregnant women are entitled to a full range of essential medical care and people enduring bereavement are cared for at home.


  • #8864
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    amcalester wrote: »
    As far as I know, current when abortion pills are prescribed they are provided free of charge.

    What???????

    No. They are illegal

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #8865
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    ballsymchugh wrote: »
    what happens if the referendum is a draw???

    Probably a full recount with barristers at every constituency arguing over every vote.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #8866
    BabyCheeses
    Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭BabyCheeses


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Some wouldn’t believe the Gardai are involved over the illegal removal of retain the 8th posters.

    https://twitter.com/giftedtim/status/985981154024189953?s=21

    Maybe you should have provided a source from the start? You keep avoiding that for some reason. Why are you so secretive?


  • #8867
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    BabyCheeses wrote: »
    Maybe you should have provided a source from the start? You keep avoiding that for some reason. Why are you so secretive?

    I don't think Robert is secretive about his sources, I think he is just too lazy to look them up and copy/paste the links here. So he just gives a vague summary, often getting the details wrong.


  • #8868
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    What???????

    No. They are illegal

    May not be the same pills that are being bought online but after a missed-miscarriage we were given pills to help pass the tissue.

    The usage method was the same as that described for abortion pills so I thought they were the same.

    I can't remember the name of the pills to be honest.


  • #8869
    groovyg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭groovyg


    If any posters want to find out more about the legal aspects of the 8th amendment
    https://aboutthe8th.com/ is a very good site.
    They hold live Q&A on their Fb account and also have a twitter account if you have any questions.
    https://twitter.com/Aboutthe8th


  • #8870
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    amcalester wrote: »
    May not be the same pills that are being bought online but after a missed-miscarriage we were given pills to help pass the tissue.

    The usage method was the same as that described for abortion pills so I thought they were the same.

    I can't remember the name of the pills to be honest.

    They were probably the same pills, mifepristone and misoprostol, but Joey might have thought they were prescribed to have an abortion.


  • #8871
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You don’t think the abortion rate will rise going by your post, why?

    Because all the available evidence shows it doesnt.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #8872
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    RobertKK wrote: »
    You don’t think the abortion rate will rise going by your post, why?

    Because all the available evidence shows it doesnt.
    And even if it does, So what


  • #8873
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    baylah17 wrote: »
    And even if it does, So what

    I think will go up, or appear to, because the uncounted women who order would have ordered pills online or used ‘other methods’ will now be part of the statistics.


  • #8874
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8875
    Smertrius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭Smertrius


    a raped woman doesn't want to carry a rapist DNA in her womb a give birth to a rapist it's her right to get an abortion by you lot saying no, you are preventing her to have an abortion. so yes on the referendum. A raped woman can have an abortion to get rid of dna of rapist. so yes on the referendum.


  • #8876
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    kylith wrote: »
    I think will go up, or appear to, because the uncounted women who order would have ordered pills online or used ‘other methods’ will now be part of the statistics.

    Nonsense, haven't you heard? It'll be an abortion on demand free-for-all, sure them dirty filthy women who want an abortion will be just casually rocking in on a lunch break to have an abortion done, probably sat next to their neighbor while they talk about all the one-night stands they're going to have. :rolleyes:


  • #8877
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8878
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Value for money don't you know.


  • #8879
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Smertrius wrote: »
    a raped woman doesn't want to carry a rapist DNA in her womb a give birth to a rapist it's her right to get an abortion by you lot saying no, you are preventing her to have an abortion. so yes on the referendum. A raped woman can have an abortion to get rid of dna of rapist. so yes on the referendum.

    I agree that a woman shouldn't have to carry her rapist's baby but your argument is poor. Rape has nothing to do with DNA. Same with murder or any other crime. Yes some kids are criminals like their parents but millions aren't. And millions of criminals come from law abiding families.


  • #8880
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    I think the user was referring to DNA in terms of it's relationship to the rapist. Not the rape. In that it must feel like being raped again every single day you are compelled to host that monsters DNA inside you. Does it parse any more sensibly that way? It is hard to say though. I am struggling with how that particular user writes. But I am trying. But it could be read either way.

    Absolutely though, no reason to think that propensity for a crime like rape is automatically passed on DNA.


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  • #8881
    circadian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,432 ✭✭✭circadian


    There hasn't been a Save the 8th supporter all day and this thread has just descended into sarcasm.

    Never thought I'd see the day.


This discussion has been closed.
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