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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    1. How is that a lie? Its asking for compassion for women in **** circumstances.

    2. Asking for unrestricted access, and it looks like restricting it to 12 weeks, and a 3 day waiting period, which could push someone outside those 12 weeks. Not a lie.

    3. You said they weren't willing, which was pointed out it was a training or scheduling issue, not an unwillingness, and a contrary poll was posted. Again, not a lie.

    4. How is asking men who happen to be pro repeal to speak to people a lie? Seriously?

    5. You'd have proof of this illegal activity? As far as I'm aware, money was returned. And SIPO are currently happy.

    Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it a lie.

    Do we have time to run through the ACTUAL lies from the enforced birth side? The ones that have been demonstrated time and time again, with actual facts showing you how and why they are lies?


    Killing the unborn is compassion, killing the unborn is showing love and compassion...

    Unrestricted to 12 weeks and up to viability for other cases.

    There will be a big problem when doctors don’t want to be abortionists and already some practices have a waiting list to see the family doctor.

    Together for Yes were telling men to talk to their wives, sisters, mother and other women and vote yes, assumption that women are automatic yes voters.

    Amnesty Ireland has refused to return money to Soros that SIPO said they must, other abortion groups did but maybe Colm needs it to pay his wages I don’t know but he is refusing to return it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    It's a good thing it was an independent review that I posted then so... :rolleyes:

    You didn’t t post any official report.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    If the pregnancy was determined to be 11 weeks and 5 days, that 3 day cooling off could be the difference in accessing it or not.

    I'd defer to someone who knew better though, and if anyone could clear that up, I'd be much appreciated.
    my reading of it is once the certification (that the pregnancy hasn't passed 12 weeks) is carried out, thats that part of the procedure dealt with


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    RobertKK wrote: »
    A letter by obstetricians and others who work to deliver babies saying Peter Boylan is giving personal opinion, not hard facts when he blames the 8th for her death.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/savita-halappanavar-inquest-1.1378062

    The report..
    Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran,
    Professor Emeritus of Obstetrics and Gynaecology,
    St. George’s University of London,
    External Independent Chairperson
    Recommendation 4b.
    There is immediate and urgent requirement for a clear statement of the legal context in which
    clinical professional judgement can be exercised in the best medical welfare interests of
    patients. There is a parallel immediate requirement for clear and precise national clinical
    guidelines to meaningfully assist the clinical professionals who have the responsibility, often
    in circumstance of rapid deterioration or emergency, as to how to exercise their clinical
    professional judgement in a particular case. We recommend that the clinical professional
    community, health and social care regulators, and the Oireachtas consider the law including
    any necessary constitutional change and related administrative, legal and clinical guidelines
    in relation to the management of inevitable miscarriage in the early second trimester of a
    pregnancy including with prolonged rupture of membranes and where the risk to the mother
    increases with time from the time that membranes were ruptured including the risk of
    infection. These guidelines should include good practice guidelines in relation to expediting
    delivery for clinical reasons including medical and surgical termination based on available
    expertise and feasibility consistent with the law.
    We recognise that such guidelines must be consistent with applicable law and that the
    guidance so urged may require legal change.

    The joint committee...
    Professor Sabaratnam Arulkumaran

    I will start with Savita's case. It was very clear to me during the inquiry that the thing preventing the physician from proceeding was the legal issue because she repeatedly said she was concerned about the legal issue. I will give a little bit of explanation. The mother was sick. There was no question about that. Even at the last minute they were using a hand probe to see whether the baby's heartbeat was present or not. Any junior doctor would have said it was a serious condition and they must terminate. They were just keeping her going because of the mere fact the heartbeat was there. The legislation played a major role in making a decision. Somebody else might say they would have done the termination much earlier. That is a personal interpretation. It is why things are made difficult because of the legislation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You didn’t t post any official report.

    The very first line of the very first link
    Eighth Amendment ‘played major role in Savita’s death’

    Professor who chaired HSE inquiry tells Oireachtas committee about legal concerns

    And yet you post an opinion piece...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    RobertKK wrote: »
    already some practices have a waiting list to see the family doctor.

    You tried this line before and as is normal and usual for your MO, you ignored the posts that rubbished it, my own included.

    So I will repeat what I said the last time you trotted out this weak line.

    "Every woman who is pregnant and ordinarily resident in Ireland is entitled to maternity care under the Maternity and Infant Scheme."

    "The Maternity and Infant Care Scheme provides an agreed programme of care to all expectant mothers who are ordinarily resident in Ireland. This service is provided by a family doctor (GP) of your choice and a hospital obstetrician. You are entitled to this service even if you do not have a medical card. Virtually all GPs have agreements with the Health Service Executive to provide these services; they do not have to be part of the GPs and medical cards system. The Scheme also provides for two post-natal visits to the general practitioner."

    There is NO reason at all to think that affording abortion pills as an option will put any more stress on the system. Pregnant women are entitled to a visit to their GP and a hospital obstetrician anyway. They would be going to the GP anyway.

    So please REGALE me with your mathematical workings about how abortion pills will affect the system and demands on the system, when women who want to seek discourse on abortion go to the GP they would have been already going to anyway. I can not wait to see how you make 1 + 0 = 2 here.

    If anything any woman seeking abortion pills would be LESS of a demand on the system given they would not need, for example the "two post-natal visits to the general practitioner" that they are entitled to. But maybe 3 - 2 = 5 in your head or something?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Killing the unborn is compassion, killing the unborn is showing love and compassion...

    Compassion to the loving, breathing woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant. What about the woman, Robert? Why do none of the No posters mention the woman?

    How many babies would you have die shortly after birth? What lies have the Yes campaign told?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭Smertrius


    why you lot ignoring me

    what if a teenager becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

    what if a raped mother becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

    what if a pregnant woman informed by her doctor that her baby only lives few hours after its born and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

    you want these mothers to suffer 9 months during pregnancy without abortion


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    Smertrius wrote: »
    why you lot ignoring me

    what if a teenager becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

    what if a raped mother becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

    what if a pregnant woman informed by her doctor that her baby only lives few hours after its born and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

    you want these mothers to suffer 9 months during pregnancy without abortion


    what does the word "buying" mean in this context?

    saying yes to the 8th amendment means repealing it right?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,914 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    what does the word "buying" mean in this context?

    saying yes to the 8th amendment means repealing it right?

    presumably "by saying" instead of "buying saying" and Yes to the Vote not the amendment


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Killing the unborn is compassion, killing the unborn is showing love and compassion...

    Unrestricted to 12 weeks and up to viability for other cases.

    There will be a big problem when doctors don’t want to be abortionists and already some practices have a waiting list to see the family doctor.

    Together for Yes were telling men to talk to their wives, sisters, mother and other women and vote yes, assumption that women are automatic yes voters.

    Amnesty Ireland has refused to return money to Soros that SIPO said they must, other abortion groups did but maybe Colm needs it to pay his wages I don’t know but he is refusing to return it.

    For someone who cares so much about compassion for the unborn you are showing absolutely zero compassion for the living breathing woman carrying the pregnancy.

    You are staring so hard at the uterus and pontificating about what should and should happen it’s contents, you are neglecting to consider the woman attached to it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭Smertrius


    what does the word "buying" mean in this context?

    saying yes to the 8th amendment means repealing it right?
    grammerly did that
    i meant say by

    why you lot ignoring me

    what if a teenager becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, by saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

    what if a raped mother becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, by saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

    what if a pregnant woman informed by her doctor that her baby only lives few hours after its born and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

    you want these mothers to suffer 9 months during pregnancy without abortion


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    kylith wrote: »
    Compassion to the loving, breathing woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant. What about the woman, Robert? Why do none of the No posters mention the woman?

    How many babies would you have die shortly after birth? What lies have the Yes campaign told?

    Eh their posters say "love both" so that has them covered on care for the woman:pac:
    The woman is literally never mentioned at all by the antichoice side, never given thought or consideration but their posters say "love both" so they obviously just do "love both".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,432 ✭✭✭circadian


    I have a question for those who wish to retain the 8th Amendment.

    If it were repealed tomorrow, what effect would that have on you? I mean you, take no one else into consideration. how does it effect your day to day life? Is there any impact at all, on how you live your life, if it were repealed?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    groovyg wrote: »
    Resign from what? Isn't he retired?

    https://www.save8.ie

    Tis up on their site, John McGuirk was on a roll again from what I could gather, he has me blocked so I just get snippets now and then.

    If he is retired though...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    From chair of the Institute of O&G. Why? Because of his lies about women dying from the 8th....

    https://twitter.com/john_mcguirk/status/989197537436463104

    I mean the hypocrisy would leave you speechless

    This clown asking for a resignation because of lies...he should have been gone a long time ago if thats the case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Gintonious wrote: »
    This clown asking for a resignation because of lies...he should have been gone a long time ago if thats the case.

    Their "New" poster is also on display there.
    Sick sick people, is all I can say.
    :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    baylah17 wrote: »
    Their "New" poster is also on display there.
    Sick sick people, is all I can say.
    :mad:

    If this passes, a large "Thank you" goes to McGuirk. His idiocy has been a huge contributor for YES.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Gintonious wrote: »
    If this passes, a large "Thank you" goes to McGuirk. His idiocy has been a huge contributor for YES.

    If it doesn’t pass he should be sent every bill for every family that has had to get the remains of a child with FFA sent back from the U.K.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    circadian wrote: »
    I have a question for those who wish to retain the 8th Amendment.

    If it were repealed tomorrow, what effect would that have on you? I mean you, take no one else into consideration. how does it effect your day to day life? Is there any impact at all, on how you live your life, if it were repealed?

    Can I add another one:

    When, if ever, has remorse for the abortions taking place every day in Ireland and England entered your head?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    So let me get this straight. At the top of the page they have a petition to have Peter Boylan step down as chairman of the Insitute because he apparently “misled shamelessly”...

    But two sections down, they have their new posters which has a picture of a toddler and the words "I had NO idea they want to legalise abortion up to 6 months" and with an explanation "This legislation will actually allow abortion up to ‘viability’, generally put at 24 weeks, on mental health grounds."

    How is this legal?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,810 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    As if mental health needed any more stigma in this country...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The poll last Sunday for 12 weeks:

    43% support
    37% against
    20% don't know

    Robert did not give a link to this poll, and I can't find one with those numbers. If he is talking about the Banda Behavior & Attitude one in the Sunday Times, the numbers he gives are wrong, they should be:

    43% for
    36% against
    21% dont know

    43% in favour in the February and March survey too, so no real movement. Excluding the Don't Knows, that would be 54.4% to 45.6% win for abortion, which is close to what I expect on the day (although this is not the question we will be asked).

    In the further detail, they show the breakdown of the Yes/No/Don't Know/Won't Vote groups according to the 12 week question. 32% of the don't knows expressed a view on 12 weeks, breaking 20/12 No/Yes. If the overall 21% Don't Knows were to split according to their views on 12 weeks, the headline number would move from 47/29/21/3 to 55/42 with 3 no votes, for a 56-44 win, also not far from my 55-45 prediction.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Thread from solicitor for Ms B, who was brought to the high court to compel her to undergo a caesarean. The court found in her favour, but that she could be taken to court at all is a good example of how the Eighth affects pregnancy at all stages, not just access to abortion.


    https://twitter.com/wendylyon/status/989430418054287360?s=09

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 Gerry Mandarin


    But two sections down, they have their new posters which has a picture of a toddler and the words "I had NO idea they want to legalise abortion up to 6 months" and with an explanation "This legislation will actually allow abortion up to ‘viability’, generally put at 24 weeks, on mental health grounds."

    How is this legal?

    Well, what does this mean then? (Asking sincerely):
    Mr Harris said that beyond the first 12 weeks, terminations would only be available in exceptional circumstances.

    These include where there is a risk of serious harm to the health or life of the woman, in emergency situations and in cases of fatal foetal abnormality.

    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.
    How exactly will this be assessed? More detail is needed in my opinion.
    I'm for repealing the 8th but the wishy-washy vagueness of the proposed legislation is very worrying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".

    That's what happens now even though suicidal ideation is constitutionally mandated as being sufficient grounds for abortion.

    With respect to suicide, nothing really changes with the repeal of the 8th.

    I'd also suggest reading up on abortion statistics, especially in countries like Canada where there are no term restrictions so you can understand how vanishingly rare it is for a woman to ask for a 20 week abortion "just because"

    Consider trusting women.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Well, what does this mean then? (Asking sincerely):



    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.

    This is exactly what she can do now. The 8th and the referendum have absolutely nothing to do with that. Not even a tiny bit.


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.

    Which is the case right now in Ireland.
    Doesn't happen so much.
    Also, if there is abortion up to 12 weeks for anyone requiring it, why do you think women will wait till they are 20 weeks pregnant?


  • Posts: 1,159 [Deleted User]


    Well, what does this mean then? (Asking sincerely):



    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.
    How exactly will this be assessed? More detail is needed in my opinion.

    Realistically, if a woman wants an abortion she will get it within 12 weeks. The proportion of abortions at 20 weeks, in countries where it is legal, is very small and most of them would be due to complications like FFAs.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.

    The 8th already allows termination of pregnancy with no time limits at all in cases of suicidality, so this is not a change due to repealing the 8th.

    The prolifers made 2 attempts to change that by referendum and failed each time, 35-65 in 1992 and a 49.6-50.4 squeaker in 2002, so this scenario has been upheld twice already by referendum.


This discussion has been closed.
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