The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Ave Sodalis · 25-04-2018 05:12PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes many doctors, obstetricians and gynaecologists have come out in favour of the 8th and say the 8th never got in their way of providing healthcare to women.

The Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecology has come out as pro-repeal. Individuals may have had different experiences but as a whole, the 8th has had an effect on their healthcare.

That is also completely disregarding all of the distress and discomfort travelling has, including passing the foetus in the toilet of an airplane, the later term abortions travelling causes, the FFA that have no choice but to continue, those that could afford to travel and have their baby shipped back in a courier box along with someone's new shoes, the shame and upset women are made to feel, the added distress to rape victims... shall I continue?

RobertKK · 25-04-2018 05:12PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I believe it is morally wrong to force women into carrying a pregnancy to full-term, simply because one can, and then dress it up as an unborn's right to life.

Ok, we know where each now stands and we know that further discussion won't change opinion of either side.

zedhead · 25-04-2018 05:12PM

RobertKK wrote: »

My point really is, the outcome is inevitable if one goes the abortion route.

And what difference does that make? Why is it not up to the woman to make a decision with the doctors on the best course of action for their situation - as it would be in all other medical scenarios.

Zubeneschamali · 25-04-2018 05:12PM

RobertKK wrote: »

A vote for yes is currently a vote to allow abortion for any reason under the sun up to 12 weeks, most of these abortions will be of healthy unborn lives by healthy women.

Yes, we know.

85% of people surveyed in the Ipsos/MRBI poll knew that, 81% are extremely unlikely to change their minds (or absolutely will not), and the Yesses outnumber the Nos 2:1

So if that is all you've got, you've got nothing.

....... · 25-04-2018 05:12PM

This post has been deleted.

RobertKK · 25-04-2018 05:13PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

The Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecology has come out as pro-repeal. Individuals may have had different experiences but as a whole, the 8th has had an effect on their healthcare.

That is also completely disregarding all of the distress and discomfort travelling has, including passing the foetus in the toilet of an airplane, the later term abortions travelling causes, the FFA that have no choice but to continue, those that could afford to travel and have their baby shipped back in a courier box along with someone's new shoes, the shame and upset women are made to feel, the added distress to rape victims... shall I continue?

The former chairman of the the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecology came out in favour of retain.

RobertKK · 25-04-2018 05:14PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Find me a report where it says it, and not hearsay from abortion supporters.

Give me names of all these women the 8th specifically killed as stated by reports into their deaths.

robarmstrong · 25-04-2018 05:15PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The former chairman of the the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecology came out in favour of retain.

The Institute as a whole came out in favour of repeal.

RobertKK · 25-04-2018 05:17PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, we know.

85% of people surveyed in the Ipsos/MRBI poll knew that, 81% are extremely unlikely to change their minds (or absolutely will not), and the Yesses outnumber the Nos 2:1

So if that is all you've got, you've got nothing.

The poll last Sunday for 12 weeks:

43% support
37% against
20% don't know

Ave Sodalis · 25-04-2018 05:17PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Considering Robert tried telling us that the Miss P was nothing but a stunt, I don't think there's any point in trying to explain to him about Savita's death.

RobertKK · 25-04-2018 05:18PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

The Institute as a whole came out in favour of repeal.

But former people of it are against, who would have had more experience of the 8th.

Ave Sodalis · 25-04-2018 05:19PM

RobertKK wrote: »

But former people of it are against, who would have had more experience of the 8th.

Really? You're going to go down that line? Really?!

robarmstrong · 25-04-2018 05:19PM

RobertKK wrote: »

But former people of it are against, who would have had more experience of the 8th.

How would they have had more experience of the 8th?

Zubeneschamali · 25-04-2018 05:20PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The former chairman of the the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecology came out in favour of retain.

That's one ex-chairman for your side.

The Institute itself backs Repeal.

The current Chairman is Dr. Peter Boylan, you may have heard of him, he is the guy who said:

Savita Halappanavar "died as a consequence of the Eighth Amendment", according to the former Master of Holles Street Maternity Hospital.

Professor Peter Boylan was speaking before the Oireachtas committee on abortion, which last night voted to recommend not to retain the Eighth Amendment in full.

The Eighth Amendment has caused "grave harm to women, including death", Prof Boylan told committee members in the run-up to the vote.

RobertKK · 25-04-2018 05:21PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

How would they have had more experience of the 8th?

The 8th is law since 1983.

25-04-2018 05:21PM

Stab*City wrote: »

But the mother gets a vote and the chance to lobby and change opinion the unborn does not.

I'm just really on the fence about this. I want someone to convince me but both sides are doing a bad job.

I'm not sure I understand? The mother gets the chance to lobby what?

RobertKK · 25-04-2018 05:21PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That's one ex-chairman for your side.

The Institute itself backs Repeal.

The current Chairman is Dr. Peter Boylan, you may have heard of him, he is the guy who said:

Savita Halappanavar "died as a consequence of the Eighth Amendment", according to the former Master of Holles Street Maternity Hospital.

Professor Peter Boylan was speaking before the Oireachtas committee on abortion, which last night voted to recommend not to retain the Eighth Amendment in full.

The Eighth Amendment has caused "grave harm to women, including death", Prof Boylan told committee members in the run-up to the vote.

That is not a report and we all know he is very pro-choice. He is not exactly a neutral in all of this.

robarmstrong · 25-04-2018 05:22PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The 8th is law since 1983.

And are you directly saying that there are no current members in the Institute voting to repeal would have the equal amount of experience?

Are you making assumptions again?

RobertKK · 25-04-2018 05:24PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

And are you directly saying that there are no current members in the Institute voting to repeal would have the equal amount of experience?

Are you making assumptions again?

Some are likely to be, a lot likely not to be.

robarmstrong · 25-04-2018 05:25PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Some are likely to be, a lot likely not to be.

So you're back to making assumptions again, gotcha.

pitifulgod · 25-04-2018 05:26PM

RobertKK wrote: »

To save the life of the mother.

How about drug trials for cancer? Should a woman be able to opt for an abortion to pursue treatment? It's illegal because of eighth at moment...

....... · 25-04-2018 05:26PM

This post has been deleted.

Ave Sodalis · 25-04-2018 05:28PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Some are likely to be, a lot likely not to be.

If only some are voting repeal and a lot are not, then the Institute would not be pro-repeal...

robarmstrong · 25-04-2018 05:29PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Some are likely to be, a lot likely not to be.

Also, Dr Rhona Mahony? The very same doctor you said was looking after your case?

She came out in support of repeal as it was in her medical and professional opinion that the Constitutional provision “creates unacceptable clinical risk and should be removed”.

Hmmmmm..

swampgas · 25-04-2018 05:29PM

Stab*City wrote: »

I'm just really on the fence about this. I want someone to convince me but both sides are doing a bad job.

When a woman does not want to be pregnant she will find a way to have an abortion. It's been like that forever.

Right now women in Ireland have a constitutionally guaranteed right to travel abroad and have an abortion. And many women do just that - travel.

So who does the 8th affect most? People stuck in Ireland, such as pregnant women having medical issues. Savita would be a good example but there are many others.

Does keeping the 8th stop Irish women having abortions abroad? No. In fact it guarantees that they can not be stopped from doing so.

If the 8th is repealed, 2 things are likely to happen:
(1) Medical care for pregnant women in Ireland will get better.
(2) Many of the abortions currently outsourced to the UK, including those for FFA, will be done in Ireland instead. Which is much better for the women involved.

Repealing the 8th will have little effect on the numbers of abortions that Irish women are going to have. But it will have a huge affect on the quality of medical care we give to our women and girls.

Hopefully that helps you off the fence.

RobertKK · 25-04-2018 05:36PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

So you're back to making assumptions again, gotcha.

You are just arguing for the sake of it now. I mean do you believe the exact same people are there now as in 1983?
Am I wrong to say people have retired like the former chairman who supports retain and assume people were recruited?

RobertKK · 25-04-2018 05:38PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Also, Dr Rhona Mahony? The very same doctor you said was looking after your case?

She came out in support of repeal as it was in her medical and professional opinion that the Constitutional provision “creates unacceptable clinical risk and should be removed”.

Hmmmmm..

Yes, and she thankfully isn't always right.

robarmstrong · 25-04-2018 05:39PM

RobertKK wrote: »

You are just arguing for the sake of it now. I mean do you believe the exact same people are there now as in 1983?
Am I wrong to say people have retired like the former chairman who supports retain and assume people were recruited?

You've convinced me, I'll take the words of one former chairman over the entire Institute, it's current chairman, and countless other highly experienced and knowledgeable medical professionals who as of now have seemed to outnumber the same medical professionals who are of the retain view.

robarmstrong · 25-04-2018 05:40PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes, and she thankfully isn't always right.

Thankfully, neither are your posts.

kylith · 25-04-2018 05:40PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I don’t think all diagnoses of FFA are as clear as made out. I posted about a family member here and was called a liar as the story didn’t have the outcome some Yes wanted and one poster said they didn’t care that the unborn lived.
So if the unborn isn’t given a chance in cases where it is guess work on survival then the unborn life has no chance.
I am not trying to be insensitive but you asked for a reply and I know my relation was suppose to die according to people in the national maternity hospital.

I remember this. As I recall you refused to give any detail whatsoever which caused one poster to say they doubted your story. Then you, putting it colloquially, flounced off in a huff claiming people were ganging up on you because they wanted more information.

Incidentally, I’m still waiting since then for you to tell me how many parents you think it is acceptable to be forced to carry to term and watch their child die for the one child who beats the odds. I’m also waiting for you to clarify with whom the decision to take the risk should lie.

Also, please tell me the ‘lies’ you claim the Yes campaign is telling, because so far you haven’t come out with one.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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