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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #8642
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,855 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Source?

    The link was right there in his post:confused:


  • #8643
    Nettle Soup
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    gandalf wrote: »
    Absolutely poetic stitch up of Justin Barrett. The symbolism of making him travel to London for the interview, brilliant!

    Who the hell is that idiot? I have never come across him before.
    Does he have a following?


  • #8644
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I don’t think all diagnoses of FFA are as clear as made out. I posted about a family member here and was called a liar as the story didn’t have the outcome some Yes wanted and one poster said they didn’t care that the unborn lived.
    So if the unborn isn’t given a chance in cases where it is guess work on survival then the unborn life has no chance.
    I am not trying to be insensitive but you asked for a reply and I know my relation was suppose to die according to people in the national maternity hospital.

    It isn't FFA, as the baby will develop healthily with no issues but the amniotic sac will rupture due to the pressure of the uterine walls (because the baby has implanted in an area that is not viable) leading my partner to miscarry.

    Is this me "dressing up abortion as being compassionate" ? My partner does not have nor will she have access to a safe and legal abortion here and instead will have to miscarry continuously until we have a baby that has implanted in a viable area (like where the baby in the current pregnancy has).

    Medical professionals have deemed her not suitable for legal abortion in this country due to the 8th, neither her health nor the babies health is in direct danger.

    Do you think it's fair that her and women like her will have to miscarry continuously because the 8th is denying them the dignity of a safe and legal abortion in their own home country? Or are they "killing" the unborn that were going to die anyways?


  • #8645
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I don’t think all diagnoses of FFA are as clear as made out. I posted about a family member here and was called a liar as the story didn’t have the outcome some Yes wanted and one poster said they didn’t care that the unborn lived.
    So if the unborn isn’t given a chance in cases where it is guess work on survival then the unborn life has no chance.
    I am not trying to be insensitive but you asked for a reply and I know my relation was suppose to die according to people in the national maternity hospital.

    There are no fatal foetal heart conditions Robert, she while your sister may have been told there was a high chance the baby might die, they could never have told her that he was going to die. It wasn't a miracle.


  • #8646
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,915 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    The link was right there in his post:confused:

    this is the post
    RobertKK wrote: »
    But most GPs in a poll said they don’t want to be abortionists and won’t be.


    i dont see any link in there.


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  • #8647
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,109 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    The link was right there in his post:confused:
    No it wasnt

    RobertKK made an unsubstantiated (as per usual) claim.
    Then robarmstrong posted a link which proved him wrong.


  • #8648
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Source?
    It would appear that this is more unsubstantiated bollox from you, read the below:

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/twothirds-of-gps-will-refuse-to-provide-abortion-pills-36682050.html


  • #8649
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,855 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    ELM327 wrote: »
    No it wasnt

    RobertKK made an unsubstantiated (as per usual) claim.
    Then robarmstrong posted a link which proved him wrong.

    Apologies, i thought you were asking robarmsrmtrong for a link .

    Reaches for his reading specs :)


  • #8650
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    RobertKK wrote: »
    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/twothirds-of-gps-will-refuse-to-provide-abortion-pills-36682050.html

    Of course you didnt mention the reasons why these GPs don't want to get involved.
    He said the doctors who said they would not become involved were likely to be influenced by having no training or lack of time due to their busy practices.


  • #8651
    ballsymchugh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,940 ✭✭✭ballsymchugh


    what happens if the referendum is a draw???


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  • #8652
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    ELM327 wrote: »
    No it wasnt

    RobertKK made an unsubstantiated (as per usual) claim.
    Then robarmstrong posted a link which proved him wrong.

    On the contrary I just posted a link that disputes his link, they essentially null eachother out.

    The point being they shouldn't be used to substantiate bogus claims as both articles are only polls.


  • #8653
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    ballsymchugh wrote: »
    what happens if the referendum is a draw???

    Goes into extra time then if that fails, penalty shoot-out.


  • #8654
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,109 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    RobertKK wrote: »
    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/twothirds-of-gps-will-refuse-to-provide-abortion-pills-36682050.html
    Which is rendered irrelevant by the other poll with the opposite outcome


  • #8655
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    January wrote: »
    There are no fatal foetal heart conditions Robert, she while your sister may have been told there was a high chance the baby might die, they could never have told her that he was going to die. It wasn't a miracle.

    You are saying Dr Rhonda Mahony who dealt with this case is a liar. Are you saying there are no heart conditions in humans that can kill?
    Are you saying the unborn are immune to life threatening heart conditions?


  • #8656
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,915 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    RobertKK wrote: »
    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/twothirds-of-gps-will-refuse-to-provide-abortion-pills-36682050.html


    I'm pretty sure we have discussed that before. it is quite an old poll.

    I think the relevant part is below. they dont object on moral grounds. they object on the grounds they wouldnt know what they were doing. So cannot rather than will not. not an insurmountable obstacle.

    Dr Conor McGrane, a GP in north Dublin who was involved in the survey, said no GPs trained in Ireland or the UK received direct tuition on providing medical abortions.
    He said the doctors who said they would not become involved were likely to be influenced by having no training or lack of time due to their busy practices.


  • #8657
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I don’t think all diagnoses of FFA are as clear as made out.

    This has nothing to do with abortion, rather medicine as a whole. NO diagnosis is 100% safe anywhere, anytime. We know this.

    And if someone is not happy with a diagnosis, they should seek a second opinion.

    Preferably while checking, which no one ever seems to do, that the person they get the second opinion from studied and obtained their qualifications in a different establishment. If you get 10 opinions from 10 doctors who all graduated together, you are probably just getting ONE opinion really. That of the lecturer who taught them.

    When seeking a second opinion myself, I tend to try and find at least one Indian/Pakistan/other foreigner doctor for example. Someone in the same field but with a completely different medical education background.

    But yes, our literature is punctuated with occasional diagnoses that turn out later to be false. Or predictions of a time to live, that later the patient lived longer, or people who were about to turn off the life support on a hopeless case.... who suddenly revived. Or people who were prescribed a medicine that then did nothing, or even made things worse.

    But this is, statistically speaking, RARE. And I simply do not buy the approach that we should throw our hands up and refuse to do the right thing, and offer pregnant women all the choices, solely because we might get it wrong once in awhile. If your concerns were shown to be statistically significant, rather than the opportunistic exaggeration of complete statistical outliers, I would be as concerned as you. But this is not happening.

    The approach you are selling would hamper and handicap medical treatments as a whole as there is always a chance a diagnosis or treatment is wrong, unhelpful, or even harmful. The patient and doctor(s) working together choose the best option they can on available data. That is simply how the world works. And it should work that way here too.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    I posted about a family member here and was called a liar as the story didn’t have the outcome some Yes wanted and one poster said they didn’t care that the unborn lived.

    I was not involved in that conversation but you appear to be revising history from what little of it I remember in that 1) You were not called a liar because the outcome did not fit their agenda, but because your story had holes in it and you appeared to have pretty much NO specific details on the diagnosis, the prognosis, the condition, the treatment or just about ANYTHING else and 2) The poster was not saying he did not care about the unborn living, but they did not care in the context of THIS conversation. Which is a massively different thing and you blew it out of all proportion and credibility at the time.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    So if the unborn isn’t given a chance in cases where it is guess work on survival then the unborn life has no chance.

    There is a range of certainty with all diagnoses. Many are clear cut. Some less so. The choice of what to do with a diagnosis of that sort should be the pregnant woman's. Because she is the only PERSON to be affected by it, and what comes after. She is the only owner and inhabitant of a body that will be affected by it at that time. It is up to her to take the risk to allow the fetus to continue from being merely biologically alive, to the point it becomes an actual person with rights for which we should have moral and ethical concern.


  • #8658
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,915 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You are saying Dr Rhonda Mahony who dealt with this case is a liar. Are you saying there are no heart conditions in humans that can kill?
    Are you saying the unborn are immune to life threatening heart conditions?

    there is a difference between can kill and will kill.


  • #8659
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Which is rendered irrelevant by the other poll with the opposite outcome

    So did I lie, I don’t see you saying sorry...


  • #8660
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    there is a difference between can kill and will kill.

    This was a will kill, could have died in the womb and was told wouldn’t live long outside the womb.


  • #8661
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,109 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    RobertKK wrote: »
    So did I lie, I don’t see you saying sorry...
    You didn't lie but you misrepresented. Leaving out the reasoning for the result (which was not moral opposition, but that no training was yet provided).
    Typical whataboutery from the birth enforcement squad.

    Why would I apologise to the likes of you?
    Are you going to apologise for the death of Savita?
    The thousands of women you hurt/killed/endangered?
    10 per day. Every day.


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  • #8662
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    RobertKK wrote: »
    So did I lie, I don’t see you saying sorry...

    You didn't lie about this, you just posted what you believed to be the truth, whilst realistically, neither of the articles both you and I posted up are worthwhile to be used to substantiate a claim, it is a select number of GP's. At that though, the polls both conflict, different areas containing GP's might have been queried, who knows.

    I'd appreciate your answer to the below regarding your claim about dressing up abortions as compassionate and statements regarding "killing the unborn".

    Am I looking to kill my unborn?
    robarmstrong wrote: »
    It isn't FFA, as the baby will develop healthily with no issues but the amniotic sac will rupture due to the pressure of the uterine walls (because the baby has implanted in an area that is not viable) leading my partner to miscarry.

    Is this me "dressing up abortion as being compassionate" ? My partner does not have nor will she have access to a safe and legal abortion here and instead will have to miscarry continuously until we have a baby that has implanted in a viable area (like where the baby in the current pregnancy has).

    Medical professionals have deemed her not suitable for legal abortion in this country due to the 8th, neither her health nor the babies health is in direct danger.

    Do you think it's fair that her and women like her will have to miscarry continuously because the 8th is denying them the dignity of a safe and legal abortion in their own home country? Or are they "killing" the unborn that were going to die anyways?


  • #8663
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    ELM327 wrote: »
    You didn't lie but you misrepresented. Leaving out the reasoning for the result (which was not moral opposition, but that no training was yet provided).
    Typical whataboutery from the birth enforcement squad.

    Why would I apologise to the likes of you?
    Are you going to apologise for the death of Savita?
    The thousands of women you hurt/killed/endangered?
    10 per day. Every day.

    Apologies if I thought you might be a decent person.


  • #8664
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You are saying Dr Rhonda Mahony who dealt with this case is a liar. Are you saying there are no heart conditions in humans that can kill?
    Are you saying the unborn are immune to life threatening heart conditions?

    I'm not saying she is a liar, I am saying that your sister probably heard something different to what she was being told, it happens in times of crisis. The difference between life threatening and fatal foetal are miles apart and there are no fatal foetal heart conditions so your sister couldn't have been told that your nephew was most definitely going to die. Unborn babies are diagnosed with life threatening heart conditions every day in this country.


  • #8665
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,109 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Apologies if I thought you might be a decent person.
    That's rich, coming from a birth enforcer.
    Probably male and over 40.

    Where's your apology to the 10 women every day that you force to take the boat? Or risk their health with dodgy pills?


  • #8666
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Ah lads, no need to go down the personal attack routes. It detracts from the thread discussion.

    As again Robert, I'd appreciate your input on the below.
    robarmstrong wrote: »
    It isn't FFA, as the baby will develop healthily with no issues but the amniotic sac will rupture due to the pressure of the uterine walls (because the baby has implanted in an area that is not viable) leading my partner to miscarry.

    Is this me "dressing up abortion as being compassionate" ? My partner does not have nor will she have access to a safe and legal abortion here and instead will have to miscarry continuously until we have a baby that has implanted in a viable area (like where the baby in the current pregnancy has).

    Medical professionals have deemed her not suitable for legal abortion in this country due to the 8th, neither her health nor the babies health is in direct danger.

    Do you think it's fair that her and women like her will have to miscarry continuously because the 8th is denying them the dignity of a safe and legal abortion in their own home country? Or are they "killing" the unborn that were going to die anyways?


  • #8667
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8668
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    January wrote: »
    I'm not saying she is a liar, I am saying that your sister probably heard something different to what she was being told, it happens in times of crisis. The difference between life threatening and fatal foetal are miles apart and there are no fatal foetal heart conditions so your sister couldn't have been told that your nephew was most definitely going to die. Unborn babies are diagnosed with life threatening heart conditions every day in this country.

    Is that why her unborn had to have his heart checked weekly to see if he was alive?
    Many trips to the national maternity hospital where a pro-choice nurse suggested going to England was an option...
    Just because it doesn’t suit you can’t make out everyone to be wrong so you can paint yourself as being right.


  • #8669
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    ELM327 wrote: »
    That's rich, coming from a birth enforcer.
    Probably male and over 40.

    Where's your apology to the 10 women every day that you force to take the boat? Or risk their health with dodgy pills?

    The pills aren't dodgy, they might be if bought from an unreputable site but the ones that come from WOW and Women Help are not. They're safe.


  • #8670
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You don’t think the abortion rate will rise going by your post, why?


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  • #8671
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Is that why her unborn had to have his heart checked weekly to see if he was alive?
    Many trips to the national maternity hospital where a pro-choice nurse suggested going to England was an option...
    Just because it doesn’t suit you can’t make out everyone to be wrong so you can paint yourself as being right.

    Oh you've said previously that doctors told her she could go to England, now it was a pro-choice nurse? So not a doctor anymore?

    Once a baby in utero is diagnosed with a heart condition in utero they're transferred to one of the three major Dublin hospitals for monitoring every week. Doesn't matter which condition that is whether it is HLHS, ASD, VSD, Aortic Stenosis, Pulmonary Stenosis etc etc I could go on but there's too many different ones. If the baby starts struggling then the mother will be induced and the baby transferred to Crumlin for care. Just like your nephew was transferred to be cared for.

    Your sisters care was not unique, it's the care plan for every baby diagnosed with a heart condition in utero.


This discussion has been closed.
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