The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Zubeneschamali

SusieBlue wrote: »

People like you are collateral damage, I'm sure they aren't monsters in that they do think what your situation is unfortunate, but it wouldn't be a good enough reason for them to vote Yes.

I think the key here is that all the talk about babies and killing is just talk. They mostly don't believe abortion is murder or women should be locked up until they give birth, that's just the fringe loonies.

What most No voters really want is no more change. It's why the same people vote against divorce and SSM and abortion, even though the logical arguments for or against these changes are not related to one another. It's why the 13th and 14th passed even though they allow abortion - we always allowed that kind of abortion, so if the 8th changed that, we must put it back the way it always was.

But we never had abortion here before, and people in rob's situation always had to travel to England, and that's the way it should always be because that's how it used to be. The small c conservative attitude really isn't based on anything fancier than that.

dudara

SusieBlue wrote: »

Having read some of the replies to your story here on Boards on various threads, the impression I get from the No side is that they're sorry for your troubles, but they see your struggles and trauma as "worth it" to "keep abortion out of Ireland".

People like you are collateral damage, I'm sure they aren't monsters in that they do think what your situation is unfortunate, but it wouldn't be a good enough reason for them to vote Yes.

A necessary sacrifice, is the impression I get. Worth it.
I don't know if that's better or worse than those who have told you to just not have kids.
Both attitudes are alien to me but I don't know which is worse.

I have to agree with this take on it. I don't think any of the anti-choice people campaigning are monsters, but as you say, they are willing to accept some collateral damage.

One case, two cases, that's fine. But what happens when there are 100s of cases, 1000s of cases? At what point does the collective collateral damage become non-acceptable to them?

BabysCoffee

Obstetricians body recommends Yes

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/obstetricians-body-recommends-yes-vote-in-abortion-referendum-1.3473125?mode=amp#.WuAPK4SQYls.facebook

Prof John Morrison, a consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist at Galway University Hospital, and a member of the college’s representative council, said that women in many clinical situations “such as following the diagnosis of a fatal foetal condition, or where the pregnancy poses a threat to the woman’s health” have to make their own arrangements “to obtain abortion care in a different country”.


“Removing the Eighth Amendment would permit the introduction of legislation to facilitate abortion services in Ireland in compliance with best international medical and regulatory standards,” he said.

The bolded bit above is the bit that kills me. As a country we are currently failing women. We are not supporting them in times of need. They don't get care from their own doctor, instead they have to go make their own arrangements to travel to a foreign country for healthcare.

Shame on us.

RobertKK

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

Rjd2

dudara wrote: »

I have to agree with this take on it. I don't think any of the anti-choice people campaigning are monsters, but as you say, they are willing to accept some collateral damage.

One case, two cases, that's fine. But what happens when there are 100s of cases, 1000s of cases? At what point does the collective collateral damage become non-acceptable to them?

Agreed. Also they should understand by now, nothing changes for them whatsoever if the referendum is passed, instead they and other women will have more choices regarding there pregnancy. That's a good thing surely?

RobertKK

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Obstetricians body recommends Yes

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/obstetricians-body-recommends-yes-vote-in-abortion-referendum-1.3473125?mode=amp#.WuAPK4SQYls.facebook

Prof John Morrison, a consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist at Galway University Hospital, and a member of the college’s representative council, said that women in many clinical situations “such as following the diagnosis of a fatal foetal condition, or where the pregnancy poses a threat to the woman’s health” have to make their own arrangements “to obtain abortion care in a different country”.


“Removing the Eighth Amendment would permit the introduction of legislation to facilitate abortion services in Ireland in compliance with best international medical and regulatory standards,” he said.

The bolded bit above is the bit that kills me. As a country we are currently failing women. We are not supporting them in times of need. They don't get care from their own doctor, instead they have to go make their own arrangements to travel to a foreign country for healthcare.

Shame on us.

One can post No supporting obstetricians and gynaecologists who say the 8th has not interfered in the healthcare they had to provide pregnant women.

NuMarvel

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

So what you're saying is we should repeal the 13th amendment so we can stop women having abortions abroad?

NuMarvel

RobertKK wrote: »

One can post No supporting obstetricians and gynaecologists who say the 8th has not interfered in the healthcare they had to provide pregnant women.

But one can't post No-supporting medical bodies or institutions, because none of the medical bodies or institutions are calling for a No vote.

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

And what of cases like mine Robert, was I looking to "kill" my unborn children when my partner and I knew she was doomed to miscarry them?

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seamus

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

Assuming it's correct, so what?

"Learning" is the arrangement of brain cells into different configurations. It should hardly be shocking that all of the basic pathways required to live, form in utero.

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

Can you summarise that please, I cannot watch videos on work.

Any word yet on lies being spread by the official Repeal campaigns?

Sofiztikated

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

To be fair, there's nothing in that Ted Talk that's new. I'm a 34 year old male, and I thought that stuff was common knowledge. What a woman does while pregnant has a knock on effect.

Still nowt to do with the topic at hand.

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

Hi Robert, i understand that you are pro life, I'll admit I haven't read all of your posts but are there any circumstances in which you think abortion should be permitted?

ELM327

bubblypop wrote: »

Hi Robert, i understand that you are pro life, I'll admit I haven't read all of your posts but are there any circumstances in which you think abortion should be permitted?

Considering the following:

• He has stated in the past to be against the 13th and 14th amendments
• He is against repealing the 8th
• He has repeatedly avoided direct questions

I don't think he will answer the question. And if he did, the answer would be no. I've met his ilk in real life. Even rape babies are "a gift from god". Delusional.

Larbre34

The point about the vote being accepted by both sides is a good one. If we get into this brexit type margin of 51-49 it will buoy the other side with a sense of unfinished business.

Even as we speak there are significant anti choice movements in the UK trying hard to undo their own 1960s legislation. Any Irish legislation to be introduced needs a very hefty mandate, at least 60/40 to my mind.

ELM327

Larbre34 wrote: »

The point about the vote being accepted by both sides is a good one. If we get into this brexit type margin of 51-49 it will buoy the other side with a sense of unfinished business.

Even as we speak there are significant anti choice movements in the UK trying hard to undo their own 1960s legislation. Any Irish legislation to be introduced needs a very hefty mandate, at least 60/40 to my mind.

Like the divorce referendum?
This is not the UK.

Sofiztikated

kylith wrote: »

Can you summarise that please, I cannot watch videos on work.

Any word yet on lies being spread by the official Repeal campaigns?

There's a transcript. Basically, pregnant mothers that eat carrots, the children will like carrots, pregnant mothers that eat licorice, the babies won't hate anise.

RobertKK

A life and death matter doesn’t end with a referendum. No side will be happy if they are on the losing side.
If No loses they still believe in the fundamental right to life of the unborn.
If Yes loses they still believe it that killing the unborn life is a human right.

RobertKK

Sofiztikated wrote: »

There's a transcript. Basically, pregnant mothers that eat carrots, the children will like carrots, pregnant mothers that eat licorice, the babies won't hate anise.

That is like a tiny amount of what was in it.

Zubeneschamali

Larbre34 wrote: »

The point about the vote being accepted by both sides is a good one. If we get into this brexit type margin of 51-49 it will buoy the other side with a sense of unfinished business.

I don't hear a peep about blocking divorce, and that passed by less than 51-49. A win is a win.

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

A life and death matter doesn’t end with a referendum. No side will be happy if they are on the losing side.
If No loses they still believe in the fundamental right to life of the unborn.
If Yes loses they still believe it that killing the unborn life is a human right.

You are being disingenuous. The Yes side does not believe that killing the unborn is a human right. You know this though, so you must be trying to provoke a reaction.

We are not fighting for our right to kill the unborn. We are fighting for our right to hold womens health and lives before that of the unborn, if we choose to.
The right to full bodily autonomy. The right to the maternity care we deserve. The right to consent and withhold consent, if we choose to.

I guess its easier to just misrepresent us as a bunch of loons baying for the blood of babies just for lols.

By your logic I could state that the Pro-Lifers believe in the right to torture and control other women - but I wouldn't say that because it isn't true.

kylith

Sofiztikated wrote: »

There's a transcript. Basically, pregnant mothers that eat carrots, the children will like carrots, pregnant mothers that eat licorice, the babies won't hate anise.

And there was me thinking it’d be calculus or an appreciation for impressionist art.

That’s a perfectly sensible evolutionary adaptation to ensure that offspring will find local foods palatable.

Zubeneschamali

RobertKK wrote: »

If No loses they still believe in the fundamental right to life of the unborn.

Well, no. The hard-core of extremists will, but most No voters will just shrug, say "Oh well" and go on with their lives. That hard core is enough to get 50 people with suspiciously professional placards to a protest, but no-one will care.

I guarantee that if Yes passes, this will not be an issue at the next election. No-one bar the Deranged False Pope Latin Mass Party candidates will even mention it.

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garbo speaks

I think if alot of these younger Yes voters actually understood the actual process of an abortion, they would be horrified. It's easy to sugar-coat everything for them though.



Mod: Banned

ohnonotgmail

garbo speaks wrote: »

I think if alot of these younger Yes voters actually understood the actual process of an abortion, they would be horrified. It's easy to sugar-coat everything for them though.

I think if the younger No voters actually understood how the 8th affects women's' healthcare they would be horrified. It's easy to sugar-coat everything for them though.

Zubeneschamali

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There is a hard core: The FG government of the day on the advice of the AG wanted to use a much simpler wording to just keep abortion illegal but the prolife crew led by Binchy were not happy with that, they wanted to establish a positive right to life. It was, as we all can see, a disaster, and was not a launching off point for an international recognition of that right as they hoped, but they are not going to drop it.

SusieBlue

garbo speaks wrote: »

I think if alot of these younger Yes voters actually understood the actual process of an abortion, they would be horrified. It's easy to sugar-coat everything for them though.

The referendum isn't just about abortion.

Zubeneschamali

garbo speaks wrote: »

I think if alot of these younger Yes voters actually understood the actual process of an abortion, they would be horrified.

Take two tablets and come back tomorrow is horrific?