The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Stab*City

Sorry i've not been following this topic. I know the vote is a yes or no on abortion. But i just noticed something if the yes vote wins will abortions be free of charge?

ELM327

Stab*City wrote: »

Sorry i've not been following this topic. I know the vote is a yes or no on abortion. But i just noticed something if the yes vote wins will abortions be free of charge?

The vote is NOT a yes no on abortion.

robarmstrong

Stab*City wrote: »

Sorry i've not been following this topic. I know the vote is a yes or no on abortion. But i just noticed something if the yes vote wins will abortions be free of charge?

They will (I'm assuming) fall under the care of the HSE, fees and such would have to be determined upon legislation.

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ELM327

robarmstrong wrote: »

They will (I'm assuming) fall under the care of the HSE, fees and such would have to be determined upon legislation.

Safe.
Free.
Legal.

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RobertKK

bubblypop wrote: »

That's really not an answer to the question. I'm not suggesting there is a right or wrong answer, I am merely interested to know if you think abortion is ever justified?

To save the life of the mother.

Stab*City

ELM327 wrote: »

Safe.
Free.
Legal.

Why free?

nozzferrahhtoo

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

kylith wrote: »

Can you summarise that please, I cannot watch videos on work.

Something of a dishonest move from Robert here. Surprised?

It is nothing that we did not know already. In the later stages of pregnancy there is a level of fetal learning that goes on. We have known this for some time.

In terms of your whole life, we learn things at an "early stage". That is to say, there is fetal learning in the womb. Scents and sounds in month 7 for example. So in your life you learn things at an "early stage".

In terms of fetal gestation this is occurring at a "late stage" however. We are talking well into the latter stages of the pregnancy here. Into the 7th month and later. Recall that the majority of choice based abortions happen by week 10, yet Robert is here offering a link to a video about weeks later than 28.

So Robert has taken something entirely true (Human beings learn from an early stage) and by switching "Human Beings" to "The unborn" he has made a misleading agenda driven distortion out of it. The aim of which is to suggest, without directly lying outright, that this learning is happening in an "early stage" of fetal development.

HUMANS learn things at a relatively early stage. The UNBORN however learns them at a late stage.... towards the end of pregnancy. Robert is merely attempting to distort the "early/late" relations there by conflating the contexts linguistically. As dishonest moves go, it is pretty egregious and blatant.

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

To save the life of the mother.

robarmstrong wrote: »

And what of cases like mine Robert, was I looking to "kill" my unborn children when my partner and I knew she was doomed to miscarry them?

My partners life is not in danger.

Are you going to answer or continue to deflect?

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robarmstrong

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You explained it better than I could, thank you, had a brain fart!:)

Stab*City

ELM327 wrote: »

The vote is NOT a yes no on abortion.

??

What is it then? I'm confused.

RobertKK

Stab*City wrote: »

??

What is it then? I'm confused.

You will get all yes speech about how it is about women and their bodies.

NuMarvel

Stab*City wrote: »

Sorry i've not been following this topic. I know the vote is a yes or no on abortion. But i just noticed something if the yes vote wins will abortions be free of charge?

I doubt that's been finalised at this point yet. Abortions that are carried out in hospitals will probably be covered under the public system like any other procedure. However, it's expected most abortions will happen outside of a hospital setting because they can be carried out be administering some medication. And for that to be free, the government will have to negotiate with the GP bodies to agree rates, etc. That won't and can't happen before the referendum is passed.

What's your source out of curiosity?

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

You will get all yes speech about how it is about women and their bodies.

robarmstrong wrote: »

And what of cases like mine Robert, was I looking to "kill" my unborn children when my partner and I knew she was doomed to miscarry them?

Why so difficult to answer?

RobertKK

But most GPs in a poll said they don’t want to be abortionists and won’t be.

Yeah_Right

Stab*City wrote: »

??

What is it then? I'm confused.

It's about repealing the 8th amendment. Check out refcom2018.ie Then read the In Her Shoes page on Facebook. Should be everything you need to know.

Timberrrrrrrr

RobertKK wrote: »

You will get all yes speech about how it is about women and their bodies.

And all the NO lies about how its murdering babies right up to term.

ohnonotgmail

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Something of a dishonest move from Robert here. Surprised?

It is nothing that we did not know already. In the later stages of pregnancy there is a level of fetal learning that goes on. We have known this for some time.

In terms of your whole life, we learn things at an "early stage". That is to say, there is fetal learning in the womb. Scents and sounds in month 7 for example. So in your life you learn things at an "early stage".

In terms of fetal gestation this is occurring at a "late stage" however. We are talking well into the latter stages of the pregnancy here. Into the 7th month and later. Recall that the majority of choice based abortions happen by week 10, yet Robert is here offering a link to a video about weeks later than 28.

So Robert has taken something entirely true (Human beings learn from an early stage) and by switching "Human Beings" to "The unborn" he has made a misleading agenda driven distortion out of it. The aim of which is to suggest, without directly lying outright, that this learning is happening in an "early stage" of fetal development.

HUMANS learn things at a relatively early stage. The UNBORN however learns them at a late stage.... towards the end of pregnancy. Robert is merely attempting to distort the "early/late" relations there by conflating the contexts linguistically. As dishonest moves go, it is pretty egregious and blatant.

but surely that is straight out of the pro-life playbook?

nozzferrahhtoo

Stab*City wrote: »

??

What is it then? I'm confused.

As I understand it, though I can be corrected by people like NuMarvel who have more nuance and knowledge than I about the legal aspects of this referendum......

The constitution recognizes the right to the life of the unborn as being equal to that of the mother. A piece of text which impacts the medical care and choices of ALL pregnant women, even those who are looking to continue their pregnancy without abortion.

The reason abortion comes into it is because having removed that text, we have to consequently legislate for OR against abortion in law, rather than in the constitution, at a later stage. But that is not what we are voting on NOW. That would come later.

NOW we are voting solely to remove that text, and amend it to acknowledge law has to be written at a later stage.

Stab*City

Stab*City wrote: »

??

What is it then? I'm confused.

It is to repeal, or not, the 8th amendment. Which gives the unborn an equal right to life as the mother.
I can't believe you don't know this? I am not in the country at the moment, so I don't know how much information there is. Is there some lack of knowledge surrounding the referendum?

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

But most GPs in a poll said they don’t want to be abortionists and won’t be.

i presume you have the details of that poll?

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

To save the life of the mother.

OK. Thanks

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

But most GPs in a poll said they don’t want to be abortionists and won’t be.

And most GP's in this poll said they will be. Oops.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/75-of-doctors-support-12-week-access-to-abortion-466855.html

seamus

Stab*City wrote: »

??

What is it then? I'm confused.

The referendum is about replacing the 8th amendment with a statement that permits any government, current or future, to make laws which deal with the matter of abortion. It does not compel any government to legalise or criminalise abortion.

Abortion already happens in Ireland in very limited circumstances, and the constitutions guarantees the right of women to travel to obtain abortions, if they are capable of doing so.

So this is not a referendum about whether abortion should or shouldn't be allowed. We already allow it in a very roundabout way. And voting No won't change that. However, voting Yes will allow for a proper framework of regulation to be put in place. Which cannot be achieved under the current constitution.

amcalester

robarmstrong wrote: »

They will (I'm assuming) fall under the care of the HSE, fees and such would have to be determined upon legislation.

As far as I know, current when abortion pills are prescribed they are provided free of charge.

RobertKK

robarmstrong wrote: »

Why so difficult to answer?

I don’t think all diagnoses of FFA are as clear as made out. I posted about a family member here and was called a liar as the story didn’t have the outcome some Yes wanted and one poster said they didn’t care that the unborn lived.
So if the unborn isn’t given a chance in cases where it is guess work on survival then the unborn life has no chance.
I am not trying to be insensitive but you asked for a reply and I know my relation was suppose to die according to people in the national maternity hospital.

ELM327

RobertKK wrote: »

But most GPs in a poll said they don’t want to be abortionists and won’t be.

Source?
It would appear that this is more unsubstantiated bollox from you, read the below:

robarmstrong wrote: »

And most GP's in this poll said they will be. Oops.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/75-of-doctors-support-12-week-access-to-abortion-466855.html

January

Maternity care is free in Ireland so it makes sense that abortions would also be free. But again, we're in Ireland. What could happen is the drugs are approved under the DPS and GMS schemes so that they'd cost at most 144 euro (or free if you've already spent the 144 on prescriptions in that month) under DPS and €2.00 under the GMS scheme. The doctors consultations then are obviously free if you've a GP/Medical Card or you pay the fee if you've none of these.

(And don't worry RobertKK, I'm not ignoring you, I'm cooking dinner and scrolling on my phone I'll be back to answer you about my 'lies' this evening).