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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #6992
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    Hammer Archer wrote: »
    Yes I'm sure it is. And that's they're decision and I 100% respect that. But to a lot of women (my partner included), it wasn't. And to a lot of women who wish to have an abortion, a 12 week or earlier pregnancy isn't a baby either. And nothing gives you the right to force your beliefs on them like you're trying to do.

    i'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone pal,


  • #6993
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    No Backtracking here buddy, and i know many women in situations were they could not have another baby, they were not lucky like you,
    a miscarried baby is a baby to alot of women.
    Perhaps in your world it was only the idea of a baby.
    Nice perception to have

    There you go again, dismissing the experience and perception of someone else as inferior because it doesn't line up with your beliefs on the matter.
    Why are his feelings on what a baby is any less valid than yours?
    I'm starting to think you're doing this intentionally to annoy people.


  • #6994
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    No Backtracking here buddy, and i know many women in situations were they could not have another baby, they were not lucky like you,
    a miscarried baby is a baby to alot of women.
    Perhaps in your world it was only the idea of a baby.
    Nice perception to have

    Why do you feel the need to constantly bring miscarriages into this conversation?

    It’s totally irrelevant for this referendum and for those of us who’ve lived through it in the past, you’re just pouring salt into open wounds.


  • #6995
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    i'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone pal,

    by voting no you are. you may not realise it, but you are.


  • #6996
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    i'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone pal,

    by voting no you are, you are not giving people who might need or want the right to choose that opportunity


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  • #6997
    Hammer Archer
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,552 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    i'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone pal,
    You've stated that you're voting no, so you are "pal"/"buddy".


  • #6998
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    I get that, but how does voting no help them, or anyone?

    This is why i have consistently said in this thread that i find this decision so hard,
    It's not a straight forward yes,in simply removing the 8th without some sort of replacement in relation to on demand abortion up to 12 weeks.But you have seen the harassment i have received for airing that view, and others. But all that will do will sway undecided voters imo.
    To say i have blood on my hands for having a different view like someone said above is just outrageous.


  • #6999
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    Hammer Archer wrote: »
    You've stated that you're voting no, so you are "pal"/"buddy".

    so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
    Not a very good argument is it pal.


  • #7000
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
    Not a very good argument is it pal.

    No, obviously not. Nobody who is voting yes will force you to do anything. You will literally have a choice to make between having an abortion or not. And that choice will be yours, and yours alone.


  • #7001
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
    Not a very good argument is it pal.

    you're not being forced to have an abortion are you? It's not compulsory you know?


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  • #7002
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
    Not a very good argument is it pal.

    A Yes vote will allow you to continue to live your life by your own morals and opinions, and will afford others the same opportunity. There will be no forced abortions which is what you're clearly hinting at.

    A No vote will ensure only one viewpoint is allowed, inflicting that viewpoint on the whole of society. Other people should not have to live their lives arrested by your feelings and morals. Women will undoubtedly suffer because of it.

    Why should I (and others) have to live my life, and indeed, have my maternity care restricted, because of your beliefs? Especially when I disagree with them?

    What is your justification for that? Are you implying that you know what's best for me, better than I do? Why do you feel you are in a position to take those choices away from women you've never met?


  • #7003
    Hammer Archer
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,552 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
    Not a very good argument is it pal.
    No, not at all. A yes vote does not force any woman to have an abortion she doesn't want. It will have no effect on her or you. A no vote forces a woman who is enduring a pregnancy she doesn't want to either continue with it or travel abroad (if she's lucky enough to be able to). So you are forcing your beliefs on people, despite your desperate (and, quite frankly, laughable) attempts to prove otherwise.


  • #7004
    optogirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,040 ✭✭✭optogirl


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
    Not a very good argument is it pal.

    Can you not see that voting yes is giving every woman the CHOICE - nobody will be forced to have an abortion. However voting NO means continued court cases, restrictions on medical treatment, girls, teenagers & women procuring pills containing god knows what over the internet, those who can afford it travelling and therefore not receiving adequate after care, people with diagnoses of FFA having to make that awful journey, abandoned by their own state.

    Those who don't think they would ever avail of an abortion will not have to change their own stance one jot if the 8th is removed.


  • #7005
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    This is why i have consistently said in this thread that i find this decision so hard,
    It's not a straight forward yes,in simply removing the 8th without some sort of replacement in relation to on demand abortion up to 12 weeks.But you have seen the harassment i have received for airing that view, and others. But all that will do will sway undecided voters imo.
    To say i have blood on my hands for having a different view like someone said above is just outrageous.

    It is a straightforward yes, trust women, Buddy!
    And nobody is harassing you, just responding to your constant haranguing and posting of lies, dammed lies, and holier than thou snide comments, Pal!


  • #7006
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    optogirl wrote: »
    Can you not see that voting yes is giving every woman the CHOICE -

    Ah but you see some people believe that women should not have a choice, ever.
    Women need to told whats good for them and do as they are told!:mad:


  • #7007
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    This is why i have consistently said in this thread that i find this decision so hard,
    It's not a straight forward yes,in simply removing the 8th without some sort of replacement in relation to on demand abortion up to 12 weeks.But you have seen the harassment i have received for airing that view, and others. But all that will do will sway undecided voters imo.
    To say i have blood on my hands for having a different view like someone said above is just outrageous.

    you're entitled to your view on abortion and that's fair enough and while saying that people who vote no will have blood on their hands is a bit dramatic, it's not a million miles from the truth.
    If the result of this referendum is no, things will stay just as they are, there will continue to be situations where the hands of doctors are tied, situations like Savita and the poor woman kept alive as an incubator could happen again, more women having to go to the high court to get the state to recognise their bodily autonomy and on and on. The responsibility for that will be on the heads of the people who voted to retain this system. When it happens there will be all sorts of arguments and pillorying of doctors for 'medical mismanagement' when the truth will be very simple, it will have been the fault of some dodgy constitutional amendment that some people voted to retain.

    Every single vote matters in this referendum and everyone who votes needs to consider the consequences of their vote, not just for their own conscience, but for the health and welfare of all Irish women.


  • #7008
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    a miscarried baby is a baby to alot of women.

    And women suffer unduly due to that error. And your perpetuating such an error serves only to fuel that suffering.

    Those of us who actually have worked on that subject, and have read all the papers on things like the Swanson model and grief counselling in miscarriage, know this.

    So what we have to do with people suffering high levels of grief after miscarriage is gently, and with empathy and care, unpick that narrative for them. To divest them of suffering by divesting them of the error of the narrative you happily perpetuate either directly or by deference.

    It is a narrative that actively causes suffering. Both in people who have suffered the very real physical and emotional horror of a miscarriage........... and people who need the option of abortion to be considered as part of their medical care but can not do so on an emotional, actual, legal, social or political level due to this baseless narrative.

    Your throw away "Nice perception to have" comment only tells the half of it. A grip on reality is almost always the best perception to have. And it is throwing that grip away so readily, and almost proudly, that is the problem here.
    AnneFrank wrote: »
    But you have seen the harassment i have received for airing that view

    No one except you seems to be able to find or see this "harassment" and when asked about it, you do not deign to reply or clarify. It simply seems that you see ANY kind of reply or disagreement as harassment. A position so ridiculous I can only question the wisdom of you being on a forum designed for discussion and debate at all.
    AnneFrank wrote: »
    so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ? Not a very good argument is it pal.

    Again if you want to claim people are not being civil in the debate then you need to observe your own behavior with this passive aggressive language.

    That said though, while the democratic process can technically be described as every voter forcing their beliefs on others..... that does not mean every vote is equivalent in that regard.

    For example allowing for the option of abortion is giving people a CHOICE. Giving people a choice is not forcing anything on them. Voting to never give them that choice however is.


  • #7009
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    baylah17 wrote: »
    Ah but you see some people believe that women should not have a choice, ever.
    Women need to told whats good for them and do as they are told!:mad:

    Exactly! Good point Baylah, lest we all forget that Adam was absolutely set with his garden, it was a fecking paradise FFS! All until Eve fed him that apple. NEVER FORGIVE, NEVER FORGET!


  • #7010
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    People before profit yes campaigner.

    https://twitter.com/pbp_gillian/status/987254833576120322?s=21


  • #7011
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    It's not a straight forward yes,in simply removing the 8th without some sort of replacement in relation to on demand abortion up to 12 weeks.

    You said earlier that you were OK with abortion for rape victims. This is one reason why we need 12 weeks unrestricted access.

    The victim cannot wait for the justice system to prove in court that she was raped by John Doe, the child would be born by then. What if a Garda handled evidence badly and a Not Guilty verdict was returned as a result? Not the victims fault.

    If we make her sign a statement or swear an affadavit and give her access on that basis, we simply create a system which allows unrestriced access for anyone prepared to lie, which is just a layer of hypocrisy on top of unrestricted access.

    Subjecting the victim to a battery of interviews or some sort of rape panel to rule if she is telling the truth or not would be putting real victims on trial, and clearly wrong.

    SO - if you want access for rape victims, you must accept that anyone can get access. May as well be honest about that.


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  • #7012
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    The Belfast student, who brought a case against the State because she wasn't eleigible to register to vote, has had her case dismissed by the High Court.

    https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/987267643664191489

    I honestly don't know why her legal representation took the case. It was plain as anyone could see that she didn't have a hope of succeeding.


  • #7013
    seachto7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,863 ✭✭✭seachto7


    I noticed on the road out of Malahide, 4 or 5 No posters, and only 1 Yes poster. Down to funding? I've noticed far more No posters around in general.


  • #7014
    seachto7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,863 ✭✭✭seachto7


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    The Belfast student, who brought a case against the State because she wasn't eleigible to register to vote, has had her case dismissed by the High Court.

    https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/987267643664191489

    I honestly don't know why her legal representation took the case. It was plain as anyone could see that she didn't have a hope of succeeding.

    Absolutely correct. Why should they be allowed vote in an officially "foreign" referendum.


  • #7015
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Saw a woman in Palmerstown today with a Yes poster under her arm. I’d like to think she was putting it up but the cable ties going through it appeared to have been cut.


  • #7016
    Eponymous
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭Eponymous


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    The Belfast student, who brought a case against the State because she wasn't eleigible to register to vote, has had her case dismissed by the High Court.

    https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/987267643664191489

    I honestly don't know why her legal representation took the case. It was plain as anyone could see that she didn't have a hope of succeeding.
    Because, even when they lose, they get paid.


  • #7017
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    RobertKK wrote: »
    People before profit yes campaigner.

    https://twitter.com/pbp_gillian/status/987254833576120322?s=21

    Canvassing is a brutal indicator of how a vote will go.


  • #7018
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    seachto7 wrote: »
    I noticed on the road out of Malahide, 4 or 5 No posters, and only 1 Yes poster. Down to funding? I've noticed far more No posters around in general.

    There'll be more Yes posters going up soon. Sinn Fein had a launch yesterday and the Social Democrats just got a delivery today:

    https://twitter.com/SocDems/status/987257529448230912

    But really, to win this, we need to talk to people. And the posters are a good way to start a conversation.


  • #7019
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Seeing John McGuirks spin on todays poll is really a sight.


  • #7020
    gmisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,385 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Gintonious wrote: »
    Seeing John McGuirks spin on todays poll is really a sight.
    It is kind of hilarious but hey no surprise.
    The fact the no vote dropped by 1% is a really bad sign for them, it would need to be increasing at this stage (Even Keith Mills...gay man who wasnt for gay marriage...) think it is looking like a yes vote.
    The poll is though a massive indicator of lots of undecided people, so still lots of work to do.


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  • #7021
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    baylah17 wrote: »
    Ah but you see some people believe that women should not have a choice, ever.
    Women need to told whats good for them and do as they are told!:mad:

    What about the women who don't agree, and who are voting no.
    I know many by the way.


This discussion has been closed.
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