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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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  • #6062
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    amdublin wrote: »
    This is a post from the In Her Shoes Facebook page today:

    "Happily married with three healthy children our family was complete. We never quite found the right form of contraception however and I found myself pregnant again. After the initial shock I knew we had to seriously consider our options.

    Having suffered from anxiety and post natal depression after the birth of our third child I was still having treatment and taking medication. I didn't want another baby. Neither did my husband.
    We discussed it and he said it was my choice. But these were just words, when I tried to make arrangements he didn't engage. I was told if I travelled it would be alone. So without his support I felt it impossible to arrange. I ordered Pills and in my heart I knew taking them would mean the end of my marriage.

    This was and remains the loneliest time of my life. It was a huge decision that I could get no help with for fear of judgement or incriminating those I asked for help. I called my psychiatrist and her first response was "you need to stop taking your meds ". The 8th Amendment seemed to surround and suffocate me. I have a lovely GP who i couldn't go and speak to because this would make us both criminals.

    In the end I continued with the pregnancy, because I felt trapped than any other reason. Despite assurances from the hospital that I would be cared for by their mental health team, I seen a nurse just once before delivery and that was it.

    Where are the "pro life" crowd when the babies are born. When I struggle to walk, so depressed I can't get out of bed. When this 4th child leaves me unable to care for the other 3.

    I love my son very very much. He has brought so much joy to me but not all the changes have been for the better. My health has suffered terribly. As has my career and finances.
    My marriage is over, he couldn't handle the pressure. Now I'm alone with 4 children. Who from the "pro-life" movement is around to help me now?

    The 8th amendment is barbaric, it demeans half the population, restricts access to healthcare and ruins lives.

    For all the women in Ireland"
    #Repeal8th #trustwomen
    Genuine question - I'm not really sure what repealing the 8th would have done in the above story. The individual did have access to abortion by both pills and overseas but didn't go through with it because she didn't have support from her partner. I'm pretty sure you can talk to your GP about abortion options they just can't procure the pill for you.

    But as I understand the story, the real problem is the lack of support - Surely the same situation of an unsupportive partner could arise if abortion were free and legal here?


  • #6063
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    a friend of mine was married to a man that had a vasectomy, both of them had grown up children from previous relationships.
    she got pregnant.
    With twins.
    que much rows etc etc turned out he still fathered the children.

    no contraceptive is 100% affective.

    I am gonna post this again, just i case certain people missed it the first time....


  • #6064
    Neddyusa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭Neddyusa


    baylah17 wrote: »
    What a filthy sneering disgusting post:mad::mad:
    Go tell that to the family of Louise Harte, she didnt get raped or have a glass eye but she died of cancer as a result of having her treatment stopped because of the 8th!
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604

    Pregnant women are always offered treatment for Cancer in Ireland. Sometimes the baby dies as a result of life saving treatment for the mother. This is covered by medical council guidelines and under the 8th amendment:
    See page 35
    https://www.medicalcou...th-Edition-2016-.pdf

    https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/News-and-Publications/Reports/Guide-to-Professional-Conduct-and-Ethics-8th-Edition-2016-.pdf

    Trial cancer treatments can be withheld by the Pharmaceutical companies who do not want to be sued should the baby die. This happens in all countries. Nothing to do with the 8th Amendment.


  • #6065
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Neddyusa wrote: »
    Pregnant women are always offered treatment for Cancer in Ireland. Sometimes the baby dies as a result of life saving treatment for the mother. This is covered by medical council guidelines and under the 8th amendment:
    See page 35
    https://www.medicalcou...th-Edition-2016-.pdf

    Trial cancer treatments can be withheld by the Pharmaceutical companies who do not want to be sued should the baby die. This happens in all countries. Nothing to do with the 8th Amendment.

    More lies

    Read what her obstetrician had to say, her obstetrician being a Professor an one of the most respected in her field
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604


  • #6066
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Neddyusa wrote: »
    1. Not true :
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/medical-myths-about-eighth-amendment-must-be-challenged-1.3451748

    That is a link to an opinion piece. It's weird to place the words "not true" in front of it.

    Fun little fact about Dr Mc Guinness, he previously opposed the exact same guidelines about what constitutes a risk to the mother's life, which he is in your linked article saying are a great model for preventing maternal death.

    There was also an excellent response to that article by Louise Kenny, who strongly disagrees with him.


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  • #6067
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Neddyusa wrote: »
    1. Not true :
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/medical-myths-about-eighth-amendment-must-be-challenged-1.3451748

    2. Pregnant women are always treated for Cancer in Ireland.
    See page 35
    https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/News-and-Publications/Reports/Guide-to-Professional-Conduct-and-Ethics-8th-Edition-2016-.pdf
    Trial cancer treatments can be withheld by the Pharmaceutical companies who do not want to be sued should the baby die. This happens in all countries. Nothing to do with the 8th Amendment.

    3. Miscarriage is treated the same way in Ireland as UK or any other country where Abortions are legal.
    UK regs recommend "7-14 day wait for miscarriage to occur naturally"

     https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg154/ifp/chapter/Treatment-for-miscarriage
    The 8th does not apply as the baby has sadly died in the miscarriage.

    4. This does not happen.
    Irelands maternal health statistics are better than UK'S and 4 times better than the US:
     https://www.rcpi.ie/news/releases/institute-of-obstetricians-and-gynaecologists-welcomes-new-figures-that-show-ireland-is-one-of-the-safest-places-to-have-a-baby/

    i personally had to go through unnecessary surgery because i was pregnant.
    my cousin had to have a pregnancy test every week when she went for cancer treatment last year.


  • #6068
    Neddyusa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭Neddyusa


    baylah17 wrote: »
    More lies

    Read what her obstetrician had to say, her obstetrician being a Professor an one of the most respected in her field
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604

    Facts are detailed on page 35 of the medical councils guidelines here:

    https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/News-and-Publications/Reports/Guide-to-Professional-Conduct-and-Ethics-8th-Edition-2016-.pdf


  • #6069
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    This is from the intellectual powerhouse who schools people on Facebook and posts pictures on here for all to see.

    I feel a very very educational post coming on.

    There it is, the mask slips. The so-called "on the fence" finally comes out.

    You're making it personal now, I like it, that's a tasty recipe for a good threadbanning, so I'll keep it educational.

    Abortion is not a form of contraception.

    There is no form of contraception that is 100% effective other than abstinence, you really showed your true colours though with the thinly veiled "they know the risk when they have sex" argument. So much for this being your first time discussing this when someone else twigged you were on the previous thread before, eh buddy?

    before the super duper educational post comes in, answer these for me like a good boy.

    1. Are you pro-life or pro-choice?

    2. Are you against abortion in all circumstances?

    3. How come you're only going for the pro-choice argument, rather than picking at the pro-life one? Not going to acknowledge the lies and misrepresentation of facts, no?

    Sure I'll throw in the educational bit anyways why not, it's late.

    There are two sides to this debate, one is consistently twisting and turning all facts and figures to suit them, the other is trying to relay the actual facts across backed up by case studies which support why the 8th should be repealed (the X case, Ms Harte, the others who I'm too tired to go research as I just cannot remember them firsthand unfortunately) which show how the 8th is detrimental to women's health by forcing them to go abroad (in one case even attempting to deny the X girl from leaving the country to have an abortion at 14..) to seek medical procedures that are not made available to them at home due to the extremely strict restrictions on them.

    Also, I noticed you never actually answered if you thought abortion was a form of contraception or not. All you've actually done is deflect, deflect and deflect some more.

    Typical of that side of the campaign really, can't hold their ground in a reasonable, open and genuine debate so they just deflect and get louder.


  • #6070
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Neddyusa wrote: »
    4. This does not happen.
    Irelands maternal health statistics are better than UK'S and 4 times better than the US:
     https://www.rcpi.ie/news/releases/institute-of-obstetricians-and-gynaecologists-welcomes-new-figures-that-show-ireland-is-one-of-the-safest-places-to-have-a-baby/

    Depends.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fnew-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831


  • #6071
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Neddyusa wrote: »
    ..........

    Trial cancer treatments can be withheld by the Pharmaceutical companies who do not want to be sued should the baby die. This happens in all countries. Nothing to do with the 8th Amendment.


    Directly because of the 8th, Michelle Harte died

    No passport nor financial means :

    “My patient’s only option was to travel to the UK but there were further delays because she did not have a passport nor the financial means to do so,” said Prof Kenny.


    The professor was "hamstrung" by the 8th :
    Prof Kenny said that in the case of Ms Harte, who was in the first trimester of her pregnancy when she presented, a termination could have been performed but she was “hamstrung” by an absence of clear guidelines and confusion and uncertainty about the legal interpretation of the risk to her patient’s life


    When that happens ( and you've other patients to looking after instead of becoming a lawyer ), you seek from the ethics committee & they advised against performing a termination :

    The hospital’s ethics committee concluded that there was no immediate risk to Ms Harte’s life, and advised against performing a termination.

    As she had stopped her treatment, her condition deteriorated rapidly. She eventually travelled to Britain for an abortion by which stage she was severely ill.













    Unless you're looking at a different version

    Here's the version i'm looking at - might be worth subscribing to these things sometimes :

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604

    Prof Kenny said that in the case of Ms Harte, who was in the first trimester of her pregnancy when she presented, a termination could have been performed but she was “hamstrung” by an absence of clear guidelines and confusion and uncertainty about the legal interpretation of the risk to her patient’s life.

    The hospital’s ethics committee concluded that there was no immediate risk to Ms Harte’s life, and advised against performing a termination.

    “My patient’s only option was to travel to the UK but there were further delays because she did not have a passport nor the financial means to do so,” said Prof Kenny. “As she had stopped her treatment, her condition deteriorated rapidly. She eventually travelled to Britain for an abortion by which stage she was severely ill.


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  • #6072
    Neddyusa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭Neddyusa


    Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »
    Depends.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fnew-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831

    Yes, it varies over the years of course.
    Your link is to a 2012 report.
    2017 report data I quoted.
    In both reports Irelands figures are significantly better than US and vast majority of EU countries.


  • #6073
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Neddyusa wrote: »
    Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »
    Depends.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fnew-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831

    Yes, it varies over the years of course.
    Your link is to a 2012 report.
    2017 report data I quoted.
    In both reports Irelands figures are significantly better than US and vast majority of EU countries.
    In how many of those countries were women like Savita and Louise needlessly sacrificed by the state?


  • #6074
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    electro~bitch wrote: »
    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Contraceptive pill, husband could have tubes tied.
    thee glitz wrote: »
    Zappone's gonna make up the numbers by giving out baby boxes.
    pleas advice wrote: »
    * as a form of birth control, so

    Are ye on some kind of pro-life piss up? These are nonsensical posts, literally nothing to do with the posts they're allegedly replying to. Is that what ye're reduced to?

    Do you not think it's interesting or relevant that the Minister for Children (and that's an appointment beyond satire) is proposing a measure to increase the birth rate in the face of a referendum that would likely lead to more abortions if passed?

    Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?


  • #6075
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    thee glitz wrote: »
    electro~bitch wrote: »
    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Contraceptive pill, husband could have tubes tied.
    thee glitz wrote: »
    Zappone's gonna make up the numbers by giving out baby boxes.
    pleas advice wrote: »
    * as a form of birth control, so

    Are ye on some kind of pro-life piss up? These are nonsensical posts, literally nothing to do with the posts they're allegedly replying to. Is that what ye're reduced to?

    Do you not think it's interesting or relevant that the Minister for Children (and that's an appointment beyond satire) is proposing a measure to increase the birth rate in the face of a referendum that would likely lead to more abortions if passed?

    Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?
    Your point is infantile and childish beyond words
    No pun intended
    Cop on


  • #6076
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Do you not think it's interesting or relevant that the Minister for Children (and that's an appointment beyond satire) is proposing a measure to increase the birth rate in the face of a referendum that would likely lead to more abortions if passed?

    Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?

    No it's not interesting or relevant at all, unless you think that people campaigning for Repeal are aiming to lower the birth rate.


  • #6077
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Do you not think it's interesting or relevant that the Minister for Children (and that's an appointment beyond satire) is proposing a measure to increase the birth rate in the face of a referendum that would likely lead to more abortions if passed?

    Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?


    It's an absolute master stroke for herself - usually the rate goes down after legalizing it

    ( cos us humans are funny creatures - give us ABS and airbags and we drive faster to make up for it )

    In a few years the birth rate will go up, the abortion rate will go down and she will be all like

    " Mo boscai !!!!" " I fixed the country with my baby boxes - look at these stats "


  • #6078
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    gctest50 wrote: »
    It's an absolute master stroke for herself - usually the rate goes down after legalizing it

    Source?


  • #6079
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Source?

    This won't open for me whatsoever and I have no idea why, it just keeps spinning and saying loading across all my browsers, but does this suffice as a source? If not, please let me know so I can rectify my post to reflect it's inaccuracy.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476


  • #6080
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Neddyusa wrote: »
    Yes, it varies over the years of course.
    Your link is to a 2012 report.
    2017 report data I quoted.
    In both reports Irelands figures are significantly better than US and vast majority of EU countries.

    And some years we're higher than the UK, particularly when the data is collected from hospital reports rather than the CSO. Will we just count the years when the maternal death rate is lower? The ones where it's higher don't suit, do they. The authors of the report which you linked say that our rate of maternal death is broadly in line with that of the UK. It's also noted in the article that I linked to that immigrant and minority communities tend to be overrepresented in maternal deaths, which I'd imagine contributes to the difference.

    Any developed, functioning democracy would want to have better outcomes in most healthcare scenarios than the US does.

    In relation to EU countries, can you define significant and vast majority please.


  • #6081
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »
    thee glitz wrote: »
    Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?

    No it's not interesting or relevant at all, unless you think that people campaigning for Repeal are aiming to lower the birth rate.

    I suggest it would be interesting to some who are concerned about a demographics problem, and more who are interested in the consequences from the proposed legislation being implemented.
    baylah17 wrote: »
    Your point is infantile and childish beyond words
    No pun intended
    Cop on

    I don't feel due an explanation as to why, but it would help the thread.
    robarmstrong wrote: »
    thee glitz wrote: »
    Source?

    This won't open for me whatsoever and I have no idea why, it just keeps spinning and saying loading across all my browsers, but does this suffice as a source? If not, please let me know so I can rectify my post to reflect it's inaccuracy.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

    The link worked for me fine, but there's nothing I can see there to back up the claim. I'm very open to being corrected.


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  • #6082
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    This won't open for me whatsoever and I have no idea why, it just keeps spinning and saying loading across all my browsers, but does this suffice as a source? If not, please let me know so I can rectify my post to reflect it's inaccuracy.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

    it seems to be more that 'Easier access to birth control drives down abortion rates', rather than the legalisation of abortion.


  • #6083
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Back to this I see. How do you propose we obtain said consent, if the lack of consent is the issue?

    Also, what are your thoughts on the fact that women are denied the opportunity to consent (or withhold consent) while pregnant?
    Do you think its acceptable for this to happen to living citizens?

    Pointing out the obvious fact that what is being aborted has not consented to his or her life being ended, does not mean that I endorse a woman becoming pregnant against her will.

    Arguing that because what is in the womb can't consent to someone else ending its life - because it can't express itself as a result of it being at an early stage of its human development, and has not yet developed and grown to the stage of being able to defend itself either physically or vocally - is a poor enough justification for ending its life.


  • #6084
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    you said yourself earlier that you've only been looking into this the last few months, but it's not ok for someone in the public eye to read on something and perhaps alter their opinion on it?
    I've heard plenty of people say they used to consider themselves pro life but after xyz they reevaluated their beliefs and now find them firmly in the pro choice camp

    You seem to think that on this issue, that if someone changes their mind on circumstances where they consider abortion should be available, that they have to then completely dismiss every aspect of the opposing position on abortion.

    The central issue on the opposing position on abortion, seems to me, to be about the fundamental issue of whether it is right or wrong to end an innocent human life.

    For example in the case of rape, it is argued if a woman becomes pregnant through rape, that if the woman carries on with the pregnancy, that the child, is not responsible for the crime that was committed by the man that raped the woman. In this scenario, it is argued that what justifies the ending of the innocent life of the child that would otherwise come into being if the pregnancy is continued.

    The Irish Times item is about a meeting that was due to be held last September which would have included women were victims of rape, who became pregnant.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/anti-abortion-and-pro-choice-groups-claim-venues-cancelling-events-1.3237141

    There is a group named Unbroken, which highlights this issue.

    Here is a piece written by Rebecca Kiessling, who was conceived in rape.

    https://unbrokenireland.org/stories/Rebecca/

    https://unbrokenireland.org/

    Is it not possible to understand the perspective of both sides?

    I said I started watching numerous different debates on youtube etc, on this issue, when it became clear over the last six months that there would be a referendum on the issue.

    For example these debates that discuss the issue:












    In this one at the 15 minute mark, the question of the terms used to describe the foetus/human foetus, depending on the perspective on abortion, is discussed.



    In this video the interviewer poses the question to a supporter of Planned Parenthood, regarding abortion in cases of rape.

    He suggests that the abortion and ending the life of the foetus/human foetus is just as much a violation on the foetus/human foetus, every bit as much as the rape and sexual assault is a violation on the woman.

    The lady with whom he is discussing the issue, agrees with him on this point.



    In this one, Ivan Bacik was asked on a number of occasions to address the central issue that was it being aborted is a human, a separate innocent human life, and each time she spoke in response, she spoke in such a way to avoid that central issue.

    This is an example of what Donal Lynch is saying in his writings in the Sunday Independent and on the episode of Claire Byrne Live on 5th September 2016.







    Here are a few more items.









    Here is a video of an interview with a lady named Abby Johnson, who used to work at Planned Parenthood.



  • #6085
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    Lia_lia wrote: »
    I'm so sick of people (well, pro-lifers) going on about how women should just use contraception. Is it so hard to grasp that it doesn't always work.

    It was Minister for Social Protection Deputy Regina Doherty who said that - not in the 1970s or 1980s, but in 2014.

    I highlighted what she said because I thought what she said was ignorant.

    She pretty much said that 'women who get themselves pregnant, should just ensure the use of condoms and contraceptives and stop whinging'.

    I highlighted what she said because in February 2018 she said that her views on abortion that she expressed in 2014, were based on ignorance.

    But she said in 2014, that she really believed what she said.

    I cited her comments in relation to a point I was making regarding how public representatives vote on legislation, very often with regard to the survival of their political career, and not on the issue being voted. Regina Doherty in this case of the comments she made in 2014, made her comments and didn't mind if what she said insulted people, as long as what she thought that what she was saying was a justification for her position.

    In this item in the Irish Times in 2014, Mary Minihan writes about comments made by Regina Doherty in an interview with Michael Reade on LMFM in 2014.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fine-gael-td-backs-colleague-s-call-for-abortion-referendum-1.1912286

    "Speaking to radio station LMFM, Ms Doherty said she understood why political leaders were reluctant to act and said clear legislation would have to replace article 40.3.3 if it was removed. “I’m not sure that the current situation does satisfy anybody. It certainly doesn’t satisfy the pro-choice people, and that’s not a movement that I would be in sync with,” she said.

    “Not everybody lives in the black or the white of pro-life or pro-choice ideologies, because there are lots of situations in the middle of the grey areas that when those situations visit people’s houses then they have to make very difficult decisions.”.

    "Ms Doherty said she also disagreed with the pro-choice view that women in Ireland did not have determination over their own bodies".

    "“I genuinely and firmly believe that women already have the determination over their own bodies and that’s called contraceptives, so make the decisions before you find yourself in a position where you’re using an abortion as a form of a contraceptive afterwards.”".

    Two months ago she said her previous stance, outlined in 2014, on the issue of abortion and contraception, was based on ignorance.

    She said this despite previously saying, in 2014, that she "genuinely and firmly" believed what she said.

    One of the lines in the item below by Pat Leahy, reads:

    "Regina Doherty says her previous opposition to legalisation of abortion ‘born out of ignorance’"

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/repeal-campaigners-will-not-accept-a-no-vote-says-minister-1.3430112


  • #6086
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    pleas advice wrote: »
    it seems to be more that 'Easier access to birth control drives down abortion rates', rather than the legalisation of abortion.

    I was criticized yesterday for citing a report which had one perspective on the issue of abortion, even though I cited another report which had an opposing perspective on the issue, and I cited an item by the Guttmacher Insitute in a response I wrote to a poster who had included links to a number of items detailing statistics relating to abortion.

    This particular report cites the Guttmacher Institute which advocates abortion, so I guess the findings in this report aren't exactly neutral.

    https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide

    https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

    On the issue of euphemisms,

    Why is the phrase "good reproductive health" used when referencing abortion, considering abortion doesn't involve reproduction?

    http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/Life-stages/sexual-and-reproductive-health/activities/abortion

    The Washington Examiner item below discusses the use of euphemisms.

    "A fetus isn't an unborn baby, its advocates claim; rather, it is the "product of conception." The killing of a fetus or unborn child isn't even called an abortion (a euphemism to begin with); instead, it is grouped in with notions of "the right to choose," "reproductive rights" "reproductive health" or just "women's health care." Killing a baby after she emerges from her mother's womb isn't infanticide, it's "snipping," as infamous (and now imprisoned) abortion practitioner Kermit Gosnell put it".

    "Nowadays, the abortion-rights crowd isn't even comfortable using the word "abortion." Review any speech President Obama has given on the subject and you'll be hard-pressed to find him uttering the word, much less describing the procedure".

    "Tellingly, more than a decade ago the National Abortion Rights Action League officially changed its name to NARAL Pro-Choice America. The acronym no longer stands for anything. One suspects it's because the group figured many Americans were uneasy about an organization whose title combines the words "abortion" and "action."".

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/planned-parenthood-and-the-euphemism-of-abortion

    The Guttmacher Institute is described on its website as:

    "The Guttmacher Institute is a leading research and policy organization committed to advancing sexual and reproductive health and rights in the United States and globally".

    https://www.guttmacher.org/about

    https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh?issue=1%3A50&volume=50&language=en

    https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2018/new-report-highlights-worldwide-variations-abortion-incidence-and-safety



  • #6087
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Should make a list of some of the tactics seen and add to it :

    eg:


    Get thread-banned and claim it was only innocent questions and there is no justice


    * Pick late at night when people are tired or maybe had a drink or two at home, try antagonise them and get them thread-banned


    * Make slightly vague statement that is sure to be picked up on, then whine they're being attacked and it's not the main point of the thread and waaaaaa



    etc


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106754251&postcount=5844

    The interwebs doesn't shut down at 6pm every day.

    Suggesting that people can't properly reply to posts that are posted at night, that are written on a message board that can be read and accessed 24 hours a day is nonsense.


  • #6088
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    horseburger wrote: »
    The interwebs doesn't shut down at 6pm every day.

    Suggesting that people can't properly reply to posts that are posted at night, that are written on a message board that can be read 24 hours a day is nonsense.


    What on earth are you ranting about ?


  • #6089
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    blanch152 wrote: »
    That is a complete red herring and something that can be fixed by electing better politicians.

    You have made it clear that you favour abortions in certain very limited circumstances that are not permitted by the 8th.

    The only honest and decent approach is therefore for you to vote to repeal the 8th and lobby politicians for the abortion regimes you favour and vote for politicians who share your views so that they can be enacted.

    It is not a red herring.

    I have already given the example where in 2013, Lucinda Creighton voted against the 2013 Protection of Life During Pregnancy legislation and lost her position in Fine Gael.

    She held a ministerial post before 2013.

    TDs very often vote on legislation with regard to the survival of their political career, rather than on the issue being discussed.

    Michelle Mulherin of Fine Gael in Mayo did not agree with the 2013 Protection of Life During Pregnancy legislation, but in order not to be "booted out of the party, my party" she voted for it.

    Here is her speech during the debate on the 2013 Protection of Life During Pregnancy legislation on 10th July 2013.

    http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2013071000041#N6

    Here is a segment of her address in the Dáil:

    "In view of this and the fact that the Taoiseach has stated that only Government amendments or amendments tabled through the Government will be accepted, I wrote to the Minister for Health setting out my concerns and suggestions for the draft legislation. I am very disappointed that there is very little accommodation of the legitimate concerns expressed by me and many others, not least within the Chamber, in the Government amendments, as published. I met the Minister, Deputy Reilly, for an hour last night, and the Taoiseach for nearly an hour and a half. I am now faced with either supporting the Bill or being booted out of the party, my party. I am not going to allow myself to be booted out so I am supporting this legislation".

    That issue of public representatives voting on issues is central to the issue of questions relating to what the point is for voting for them at all, in relation to arguments that they give on local and national issues while they are elected public representatives.

    It is central to the question of as to whether they represent the goals of the political party they are in, and whether or not they can defy the party whip.

    It also relates to the question as to what each individual TD can actually achieve in their constituencies as public representatives, if when they defy the party whip, they just get thrown out of the party.


  • #6090
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    gctest50 wrote: »
    What on earth are you ranting about ?

    You suggesting that people are unable to adequately reply to posts that are written on a 24 hour accessible message board, due to the consumption of alcohol and the time of day.

    If you think alcohol impairs you ability to write, don't drink alcohol.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106754251&postcount=5844
    gctest50 wrote: »
    Should make a list of some of the tactics seen and add to it :

    eg:
    gctest50 wrote: »
    Should make a list of some of the tactics seen and add to it :


    eg:


    Get thread-banned and claim it was only innocent questions and there is no justice


    * Pick late at night when people are tired or maybe had a drink or two at home, try antagonise them and get them thread-banned


    * Make slightly vague statement that is sure to be picked up on, then whine they're being attacked and it's not the main point of the thread and waaaaaa



    etc




    eg:




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  • #6091
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    gctest50 wrote: »
    What on earth are you ranting about ?

    you on the beer aswell? contemplating having another one myself


This discussion has been closed.
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