Men's rights on Abortion?

Wibbs · 17-04-2018 09:42PM

Haven't kicked in for a while and see this? OK this back and forth nonsense stops now. No more. End. Any more from anyone and they're out of this thread. Deleted a few posts because there's only so much schoolyard guff I can take.

kumate_champ07 · 17-04-2018 11:54PM

Jenneke87 wrote: »

I had to have all three of my pregnancies terminated, or " the babies killed" as some of you like to call it. Only that is the reason I'm currently alive. I'm grateful that in my home country there is abortion on demand so that women, when they need to, can safely terminate.
I believe that some pro-lifers massively misunderstand how difficult it is to make that decision. We don't go in there with a smile on our faces in anticipation of the free tea and cookies will get after the procedure. In my country murder will get you 25 years. If you " kill" at six weeks gestation the fetus is the size of a grain of rice, yet some of you want to put the two on equal footing, it's just bizarre..To become completely without rights just because you can get pregnant is truly a scary idea and one, I bet that wouldn't even be discussed if men could get pregnant. I also wonder if those that are pro-life and claim that poverty of lack of finances to properly raise is not a reason to abort a child would financially support a woman so she can keep it, but we all know the answer..Suddenly the child is no longer their business..
Three days ago, here, a 19 year old girl gave birth, put the baby in a plastic bag and left it to die on the balcony, which the baby did. I was horrified, first of all for the baby but also because, if she truly did not want the baby, she could have safely terminated the pregnancy. I'm sure the baby was now far more aware of it's impending death than it would have been had she terminated.
A pregnancy and it's continuation is between the woman, her partner if still on scene and her GP and no-one else.

My apologies for the toxic atmosphere here that I have contributed to, your post got lost in the storm and its actually the most relevant post I have seen in this thread, especially this part:

"A pregnancy and it's continuation is between the woman, her partner if still on scene and her GP and no-one else."

It's difficult to discuss this topic, and I can only imagine how difficult it might be if you've actually experienced it. I'm only trying to explain my own views and its been difficult to stay on topic. Language has limitations and can be misunderstood sometimes, some words have different meanings attached to them

If my partner was pregnant and there was a risk to her life its a no brainer, she should terminate the pregnancy, I dont even know why my own opinion would matter in that situation. But it's nice to hear that you value your partners opinion.

I suppose if its someone you already have a strong relationship with , the discussion is more likely to take place, but if its a pregnancy outside of a relationship it's going to be more complicated, but there should be some rights for the man, I dont know how much, but the father is important.
I would hope that in any pregnancy situation that I would have a voice when it comes to a lifeform that has 50% of my genetic makeup.

There is too much confusion, from all sides, I havent even made my own mind up yet. It's bigger than 'repeal the 8th', that's just a key unlocking a door, but what will be behind the door?

Nobody should ever have died on Irish soil because of their pregnancy with the current legislation thats in place, If anyone can correct me on that please do, if I'm wrong I'd like to be educated

18-04-2018 12:12AM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

My apologies for the toxic atmosphere here that I have contributed to, your post got lost in the storm and its actually the most relevant post I have seen in this thread, especially this part:

"A pregnancy and it's continuation is between the woman, her partner if still on scene and her GP and no-one else."

It's difficult to discuss this topic, and I can only imagine how difficult it might be if you've actually experienced it. I'm only trying to explain my own views and its been difficult to stay on topic. Language has limitations and can be misunderstood sometimes, some words have different meanings attached to them

If my partner was pregnant and there was a risk to her life its a no brainer, she should terminate the pregnancy, I dont even know why my own opinion would matter in that situation. But it's nice to hear that you value your partners opinion.

I suppose if its someone you already have a strong relationship with , the discussion is more likely to take place, but if its a pregnancy outside of a relationship it's going to be more complicated, but there should be some rights for the man, I dont know how much, but the father is important.
I would hope that in any pregnancy situation that I would have a voice when it comes to a lifeform that has 50% of my genetic makeup.

There is too much confusion, from all sides, I havent even made my own mind up yet. It's bigger than 'repeal the 8th', that's just a key unlocking a door, but what will be behind the door?

Nobody should ever have died on Irish soil because of their pregnancy with the current legislation thats in place, If anyone can correct me on that please do, if I'm wrong I'd like to be educated

it has been discussed on this thread, TBH, I think everyone acknowledges that in a perfect world, both the mother & father would make a joint decision over an unwanted pregnancy. The biological truth is that, should the father want it to go ahead, he cannot force a woman to be pregnant, it is against her human rights.
equally, should he not wish to proceed with a pregnancy, he cannot force a woman to abort.
so, until such a time as there is an artificial womb created that allows for pregnancy to continue, should the woman not want to be pregnant, we have to deal with what we have.
and basically, a living breathing human woman, should get precedence over a foetus.

kumate_champ07 · 18-04-2018 12:20AM

bubblypop wrote: »

it has been discussed on this thread, TBH, I think everyone acknowledges that in a perfect world, both the mother & father would make a joint decision over an unwanted pregnancy. The biological truth is that, should the father want it to go ahead, he cannot force a woman to be pregnant, it is against her human rights.
equally, should he not wish to proceed with a pregnancy, he cannot force a woman to abort.
so, until such a time as there is an artificial womb created that allows for pregnancy to continue, should the woman not want to be pregnant, we have to deal with what we have.
and basically, a living breathing human woman, should get precedence over a foetus.

With the way technology is advancing, I wouldnt be surprised if that was possible in the not too distant future, but I would presume a woman would still have to consent to a fetus being kept alive outside her body

When human consciousness is accurately simulated we're gonna have different things to worry about, and alot of todays worries wont exist anymore

Jenneke87 · 18-04-2018 10:55AM

us pro-life of that view already support such children via our taxes, the wellfare system. it's absolutely right that it exists and helps to support parents who are in difficulty.
The thing is, that isn't always enough. Yes there is a system in place, but the women that I spoke to who had a termination because of this reason found that when money was already very tight, having another child (most often unplanned and coming as a surprise) was not doable after crunching the numbers. The prospect of long-term poverty is not something you're looking forward to when you already have children and financial difficulties as it is. In my view it's the opposite: if you know that you cannot adequately take care of the child that's coming, it may be for the best not to have it and not put it in a situation that's going to be so detrimental to their wellbeing. And it has to be one of the more heartbreaking scenario's when it comes to abortion.
There is too much confusion, from all sides, I havent even made my own mind up yet. It's bigger than 'repeal the 8th', that's just a key unlocking a door, but what will be behind the door?
A woman's right to choose, no more, no less. Women aren't going to suddenly run en masse to an abortion clinic just because they can. Even in my situation it was the very last thing I wanted, and I dreaded it. And my life was at stake and I had to. Why make women go through the hoops they currently have to go through? If a man can walk away from an unwanted pregnancy, the same should be there for a woman. Biology has made it so that that means she can either terminate or give the child up for adoption and the choice should be hers. Ideally in conjunction with the father, but if that's not possible then by default the choice falls to her, not the state, and certainly not another person who believes that her life now no longer has any value because she is pregnant.
I remember distinctively the second pregnancy and the moment where I had to throw up. A clump blocked my airway and because I was so weakened I couldn't cough it up. I remember the sheer panic, the lack of air, how my vision slowly faded. How I slammed my hands to the floor hoping someone would hear, but nobody came..It was only because my friend and her mother who was a doctor were on their way to check up on me and were-as it turned out very close-by that they found me and got me to a hospital in time. In this thread it has been suggested that a man could take a woman to court should she decide to have an abortion and he doesn't agree. I truly shudder to think what would have happend to me if that were possible and the judge had sided with him and said no. I understand that men feel like they have no say and especially when the child is wanted that cannot be anything other than painful. But to totally restrict a woman access to abortion because of that seems very spiteful and yes, very controlling.

Sonics2k · 20-04-2018 05:06PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I have no problem with that, thats morally acceptable, it was the only option. I think euthanasia should be allowed, I would still call it killing, because thats the word used to describe when you end the life of an organism. people attach their own emotions to the word.

So, here's the best option for you.

You personally dislike the idea abortion, and would never ask a woman to have one. That's an absolutely fair position. I personally would never ask a partner to have one, but I'd support her decision in the end.

Even though I, personally, would never ask someone to have an abortion, I will 100% vote yes because every woman should have that -right- to make that decision, and be able to do so in her own country with all the proper support she needs.

You have just said you believe she made the right choice, so clearly, logically speaking, you should vote Yes.

Smertrius · 21-04-2018 03:01PM

A woman should choose to have a baby or not by freedom saying no is against freedom.

end of the road · 21-04-2018 03:18PM

Smertrius wrote: »

A woman should choose to have a baby or not by freedom saying no is against freedom.

that's no problem. sometimes certain freedoms cannot be allowed for the good of society.

Smertrius · 21-04-2018 03:28PM

end of the road wrote: »

that's no problem. sometimes certain freedoms cannot be allowed for the good of society.

abortion is legal in uk and usa, abortion should legal here in ireland

Calhoun · 23-04-2018 04:27PM

Something i read over the weekend http://scarcelyodd.com/you-are-my-sunshine/ illustrates how cruel the status quo can be and how it impacts not just the mother but also the father.

A question we men must ask ourselves are we happy to keep this going as is, worst comes to the worst would you want to go through what the father in the above piece went through?

iptba · 08-05-2018 11:59PM

Bishop says 'absent fathers can be blamed for terminations'

[..]

Highlighting that a man is equally responsible for a pregnancy, he asked: "How often is the woman abandoned with her pregnancy, when the man, the child's father, is unwilling to accept responsibility for it?"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bishop-says-absent-fathers-can-be-blamed-for-terminations-36883963.html

Probably not an unreasonable view.

ted1 · 09-05-2018 12:03AM

Smertrius wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

that's no problem. sometimes certain freedoms cannot be allowed for the good of society.

abortion is legal in uk and usa, abortion should legal here in ireland

under the protection of life act , Abortion is legal here

ted1 · 09-05-2018 12:05AM

Jenneke87 wrote: »

I had to have all three of my pregnancies terminated, or " the babies killed" as some of you like to call it. Only that is the reason I'm currently alive. I'm grateful that in my home country there is abortion on demand so that women, when they need to, can safely terminate.
I believe that some pro-lifers massively misunderstand how difficult it is to make that decision. We don't go in there with a smile on our faces in anticipation of the free tea and cookies will get after the procedure. In my country murder will get you 25 years. If you " kill" at six weeks gestation the fetus is the size of a grain of rice, yet some of you want to put the two on equal footing, it's just bizarre..To become completely without rights just because you can get pregnant is truly a scary idea and one, I bet that wouldn't even be discussed if men could get pregnant. I also wonder if those that are pro-life and claim that poverty of lack of finances to properly raise is not a reason to abort a child would financially support a woman so she can keep it, but we all know the answer..Suddenly the child is no longer their business..
Three days ago, here, a 19 year old girl gave birth, put the baby in a plastic bag and left it to die on the balcony, which the baby did. I was horrified, first of all for the baby but also because, if she truly did not want the baby, she could have safely terminated the pregnancy. I'm sure the baby was now far more aware of it's impending death than it would have been had she terminated.
A pregnancy and it's continuation is between the woman, her partner if still on scene and her GP and no-one else.

If your life was at risk you could have had the abortions here under r the 2013 act

thisistough · 09-05-2018 12:31AM

ted1 wrote: »

If your life was at risk you could have had the abortions here under r the 2013 act

But that decision is only made when you’re at deaths door - you have to actually deteriorate to that point first to force a doctor to make that call.

I have several chronic health conditions which are currently medically managed, but if I were to get pregnant all treatments would have to stop since they could hurt a baby. In any other country women are given a choice as to whether they want to continue with the pregnancy or the treatment since the damage done while off treatment can’t be undone, but in Ireland my treatment would be involuntarily stopped. It is only at the point that my body is about to shut down from the damage done that my needs can be taken into consideration.

It is not as simple as thinking that there may be a risk to life and that’ll do as grounds to get people by unfortunately.

Edited to add - I’m 25 years old and should have a long time left to live. But it’s terrifying to know that one mistake could have disastrous consequences. Abortion pills or travelling abroad just aren’t an option with complex ongoing medical conditions - we need the support of our medical teams here

SusieBlue · 09-05-2018 11:22AM

I'm getting treatment for abnormal cell changes in my cervix to stop them from developing into cervical cancer.
Before each appointment I have to do a pregnancy test, and if it comes back positive, they won't help me.
They won't treat me. They will make me gamble my life and hope that the cells haven't progressed to cancer by the time I give birth in 9 months.
I'm only 27. This is unacceptable.

I shouldn't have to be dying to avail of medical treatment.
Can you imagine going into hospital, as a man, with a minor infection, and them sitting you on a chair and telling you they'll start treating you when the situation becomes critical and you're dying? Would you think thats ok?

Maxpfizer · 09-05-2018 11:39AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I'm getting treatment for abnormal cell changes in my cervix to stop them from developing into cervical cancer.
Before each appointment I have to do a pregnancy test, and if it comes back positive, they won't help me.
They won't treat me. They will make me gamble my life and hope that the cells haven't progressed to cancer by the time I give birth in 9 months.
I'm only 27. This is unacceptable.

I shouldn't have to be dying to avail of medical treatment.
Can you imagine going into hospital, as a man, with a minor infection, and them sitting you on a chair and telling you they'll start treating you when the situation becomes critical and you're dying? Would you think thats ok?

Reasons like this alone are why the 8th Amendment absolutely must be repealed.

If it's ultimately replaced by something else that specifies only allowing abortions in situations like the above then fine. It still must be repealed.

If we end up in a situation where abortion without a medical reason or something is super expensive, so stopping the "abortion on demand" that people seem so scared of, then fine. The 8th must still be repealed.

It completely unacceptable to me that we could potentially allow a woman to die because we won't terminate a pregnancy because we have this idiotic amendment to the constitution.

drunkmonkey · 09-05-2018 11:42AM

Not ok Susy it's a ridiculous situation.

There was a discussion on newstalk there a while ago about the unnecessary treatment of Irish women for possible cancerous cells, when in fact a lot of them end up non cancerous and the operations are unnecessary. Maybe it's something work looking into. Can't remember the doctors name but it was around his book. His main point was these cells may never become cancerous so here's hoping for you. Hope it all goes well.

drunkmonkey · 09-05-2018 12:07PM

Not what I'm looking for but relevant considering your age Susy, http://theconversation.com/doctors-must-stop-misleading-women-about-cervical-screening-90496
You seem to fit the bill with worry.

Smertrius · 11-05-2018 12:24PM

people say Ireland freedom country we have no freedom to have abortions,

Calhoun · 11-05-2018 01:02PM

Smertrius wrote: »

people say Ireland freedom country we have no freedom to have abortions,

Lol what did you miss half of what you were trying to say ?

Outlaw Pete · 14-05-2018 10:12PM

With regards to the OP....

I don't think abortion rights for men are feasible or even workable. Personally I'm in favour of only therapeutic abortions being legal in society once a heartbeat can be found. I feel all elective abortions from that point on should be illegal. We had a good opportunity in 2013 with the 'Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act' do to just that and we failed.

SusieBlue wrote: »

I'm getting treatment for abnormal cell changes in my cervix to stop them from developing into cervical cancer. Before each appointment I have to do a pregnancy test, and if it comes back positive, they won't help me. They won't treat me.

They will make me gamble my life and hope that the cells haven't progressed to cancer by the time I give birth in 9 months. I shouldn't have to be dying to avail of medical treatment.

Sorry, but do you mind my asking which treatment is it that you were told they would have to stop if you became pregnant? Just that my sister-in-law had LLETZ a few years back when she was pregnant after an abnormal smear and I'm pretty sure they were just told that there was a small risk of preterm labour. Thankfully everything went fine.

We're seeing so much right now in the media about how Ireland doesn't care enough about pregnant women but I think stories like the following show that that's just not the case at all:

'I was pregnant when I was told I had cervical cancer' - mum-of-one (39)

After struggling to conceive Katrzyna was overjoyed when she discovered she was pregnant only to be shocked by bad news soon after...

The 39-year-old - who lives with her partner Peter and baby girl Melanie, now one-year-old, in Whitehall, Dublin - explains why she will vaccinate her daughter when the time comes and is encouraging other parents to do the same.

"I was experiencing bleeding so I went to my GP and I had a smear test. I was referred for an ultrasound and that's when the doctor told me I was pregnant. I was thrilled because I thought I was unable to have children as we had been trying for some time.

"I was eight weeks pregnant when the results from the smear came back and I was told I had severe dysplasia. I was referred to the colposcopy clinic. At that time, I still thought it was related to the pregnancy, so I wasn't worried.

"By the time the baby's 12 week scan came around, I had completely forgotten about the smear test. Myself and my partner Peter were told that there was a 50pc chance that the baby could have a genetic condition or heart disease, so we were dealing with that."

Reeling from the news that her baby could be born with major health concerns, the business woman, who is originally from Poland, was dealt another devastating blow when it was confirmed that she had cancer.

"When I went to the colposcopy clinic, the first question the doctor asked when he checked my cervix was 'How many children do you have already?' I said, 'It's my first baby'. I knew from his reaction it wasn't good news.

"I had a biopsy and three days later, I had the results. I was told that I had cancer and that it was locally advanced.

"I was sent for an MRI so they could see what stage cancer I had. That was the most difficult part, that really was the deciding factor in how the team would proceed."

Unsure whether she could continue the pregnancy and advance with treatment, the doting mum explains,

"From the beginning, I said that if there was any chance for both of us, I would take the chance and that's what I did.

"When the results came back, I had stage 2B cervical cancer which meant that I needed radiotherapy, but that was impossible because I was pregnant so my team decided chemotherapy would be the best option, but it would only contain the cancer.

"In the midst of all this we found out that the baby didn't have any genetic problems, but her heart was not developing properly. She had Hypoplastic Right Heart Syndrome, so the right ventricle was smaller than it should be. It was just another complication on top of the cancer.

"My doctors contacted hospitals around the world to see if they had any similar cases - the goal was to start on a chemo that would cause the least amount of damage to the baby."

Delaying radiotherapy treatment until after her pregnancy, Katrzyna received chemotherapy treatment from the 20th week of her pregnancy until baby Melanie was born on September 28 last year.

"I underwent a C-section and a hysterectomy at the same time. The doctors wanted to put me under anaesthetic but I wanted to hold Melanie.

"They understood, so they did the epidural first. I got to see her and hold her and kiss her and then she was transported to the Rotunda Hospital.

"When Melanie was two-months-old, I started radiotherapy and began more chemotherapy.

"It was hard because she was so small and I hated leaving her, but Peter and his mum were amazing. I could not have done it without them. Peter was my rock throughout it all.

"I finished the whole treatment in January it was an amazing moment. It was the hardest thing to go through, but Melanie is really beautiful. She really is amazing and I am so grateful she is healthy and happy.

"The only problem she has is a hearing loss, she is not deaf but she does not hear 100pc so she has small hearing aids. We thought she would need open heart surgery when she was born, but her heart repaired itself while I was pregnant and she was born with a hole in her heart, but that healed when she was six-months-old."

I think that's the perfect example of how the Irish medical system does it's best for both baby and mother here, something the world's media is currently being giving an entirely different impression of and the following recent letter was written to address just that......

“To the Irish public,

As former Chairs of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, we have been horrified at some of the statements made by colleagues during this referendum campaign in relation to maternal care in Ireland.

We are particularly appalled by the comments of Dr Rhona Mahony in the Together for Yes campaign video where she states “In Ireland today, we play medical roulette with women’s lives”, and those of Dr Peter Boylan in the same video where he claims the Eighth Amendment “makes it difficult for us to treat women with compassion and give them the proper care that they need”.

These comments are simply not true and are nothing less than a serious misrepresentation of the Irish maternal health system. We call on them to withdraw these statements.

Each of us has had extensive experience over around 40 years in the specialty of obstetrics and gynaecology. In addition, in our privileged position as Chairs of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, we have fought to improve the standards of care for mothers and their newborn babies.

Ireland is a very safe country in which to be pregnant. The Eighth Amendment does not prevent Irish women receiving care of the highest possible standard. This is why our maternal death rate is so low. Recent Maternal Death Enquiry reports confirm that Ireland is one of the safest places in the world to be pregnant.

Not one of our colleagues should ever be permitted to use the Eighth Amendment as an excuse for not treating a woman. Each one of us can stand over the care we have provided in our careers. Four of us who practised in this jurisdiction have carried out necessary surgery which resulted in termination of pregnancy in order to save and protect Irish women. We had no difficulty in so doing, and the Eighth Amendment did not prevent us from performing an ethical and medically indicated procedure.

On May 25th, Irish people will be asked to vote on whether the right to life of an unborn baby should be withdrawn. If the answer is Yes, it is the stated intention of government to introduce legislation to enable ending the life of a perfectly healthy growing baby, in a perfectly healthy pregnant woman. That is a matter of conscience for each voter.

What this referendum is not about, and what it has never been about, is maternal healthcare. That some campaigners have chosen to engage in a campaign to raise unnecessary fears for maternal health in the electorate is deeply regrettable.

Yours sincerely,

Prof John Bonnar MD FRCPI FRCOG FTCD, Former Chairman, Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

Dr Eamon McGuinness MA FRCPI FRCOG, Former Chairman, Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

Dr. Conor Carr MA FRCPI FRCOG, Former Chairman, Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

Dr James Clinch MD FRCOG, Former Chairman, Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

Dr Michael O’Hare MD FRCPI FRCOG, Former Chairman Institute of Obstetricians & Gynaecologists”

_Dara_ · 15-05-2018 12:04AM

^^^^

That’s one type of cancer. As far as I know, there are ~200 different cancers. If I had been pregnant when I was diagnosed with cancer, my particular treatment would not have been allowed as it is a teratogen and therefore pregnancy was a contraindication. There are many different cancer agents. For many of them, pregnancy is a contraindication. That some forms of cancer can be treated during pregnancy is of no help to women with forms of cancer that can’t be treated during.

Women who can have their cancer treated during pregnancy are the lucky ones. If a woman is pregnant and the treatment must be delayed until the end of pregnancy, her options are to accept that and risk the cancer spreading or travel out of the country at a devastating moment in her life to get an abortion and then return get to the treatment. As someone who has personally experienced the devastation of a cancer diagnosis, I can barely process that. It’s barbaric.

Outlaw Pete · 15-05-2018 12:22AM

I appreciate that of course, and I see from Susie's other posts elsewhere that she has been more specific with regards the type of treatment she is receiving (Laser) but one has to wonder then why aren't we seeing more deaths and court cases from families since the 8th's inception if indeed it results in women not getting the medical treatment which is needed to the degree we are seeing being suggested on our airwaves.

Either way though, I am supportive of all forms of therapeutic abortions and for that reason feel that this referendum should either have focused solely on repealing the 8th (with an eye on clarifying the law, and facilitating the availability of abortion for women who currently have to travel with babies that have a ffa etc) or made another voting option available on the 25th for those of us who would have happily voted to allow abortion to be liberalized for the hard cases without also having to endorse abortions at 12 weeks for any reason.

_Dara_ · 15-05-2018 12:57AM

There probably aren’t too many cases in Ireland of women dying of cancer because of delayed treatment due to pregnancy. It’s a low population country and cancer is relatively rare in women of child-bearing age. But there have been some cases. Some is too many. Who cares if it’s just a handful?

Not long after my diagnosis, I met a 30-something with metastatic breast cancer. The lump was detected during pregnancy. However, she had to wait until the pregnancy was over before she could even be scanned, never mind start treatment. By that point, it was metastatic. She doesn’t know if it spread during the pregnancy. But she knew she had increasing back pain during the pregnancy. My cancer was in my spine and ribs before treatment tamped it down. It’s the most excruciating pain imaginable. Having to deal with pregnancy whilst cancer weakens your back by eating away at the bone is just cruel. This all happened in one of the main cancer hospitals in the country in 2014.

Triceratops Ballet · 15-05-2018 07:24AM

Outlaw Pete wrote:

I don't think abortion rights for men are feasible or even workable. Personally I'm in favour of only therapeutic abortions being legal in society once a heartbeat can be found. I feel all elective abortions from that point on should be illegal. We had a good opportunity in 2013 with the '

Just in that we didn't have that opportunity with POLDPA because introducing abortion where the life of the mother is not at risk would be unconstitutional. Legislation that is introduced here has to work inside the confines of the constitution. If the constitution says both parties have equal rights then it is the laws responsibility to vindicate those rights. The only way abortion can be introduced for therapeutic reasons is to repeal the 8th. Now or later the 8th has to go before anything can change

seamus · 15-05-2018 09:04AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I appreciate that of course, and I see from Susie's other posts elsewhere that she has been more specific with regards the type of treatment she is receiving (Laser) but one has to wonder then why aren't we seeing more deaths and court cases from families since the 8th's inception if indeed it results in women not getting the medical treatment which is needed to the degree we are seeing being suggested on our airwaves.

Because we have the "safety valve" of the UK. Women who can't get treated because they're pregnant, miraculously appear 3 weeks later, not pregnant, and their treatment can begin., no questions asked.

Women travelled to the UK for abortions before the 8th and before the 13th amendment. The latter just codified travel for abortion as a constitutional right. But it was happening well before that, everyone just turned a blind eye.

If this was the Philippines, where women can't travel unchecked across a narrow sea to obtain necessary medical care, it would be a different story. And the 8th would have been repealed in the 90s rather than just ignored by way of exporting the issue.

OldNotWIse · 15-05-2018 09:24AM

But if she decides to keep it, she will force you to pay maintenance.

seamus · 15-05-2018 10:13AM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

But if she decides to keep it, she will force you to pay maintenance.

She may or may not. Depends on the relationship.

I know of one woman who's going it alone and despite telling the father that she wanted nothing from him, got nothing but verbal abuse in return. So she's left him off the birth cert and doesn't bother contacting him.

Very few women want themselves or their child to have an ongoing relationship with someone who resents their existence.

Vindictive mothers who spend their time punishing their child's father are few and far between.

_Dara_ · 15-05-2018 06:28PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

But if she decides to keep it, she will force you to pay maintenance.

The subject of legal abortion will probably be tackled some time in the future though I doubt Ireland will the groundbreaker. It’s worthy of consideration for sure but is a separate issue to this referendum.

homerjay2005 · 15-05-2018 07:34PM

seamus wrote: »

Vindictive mothers who spend their time punishing their child's father are few and far between.

Wow. Go to the family court on any given day and you will see dozens of men fighting to get even 2 hours access petlr week for their child yet stilll expected to pay 3 or even 4 figures maintainance every month

Men's rights on Abortion?

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