Men's rights on Abortion?

end of the road · 15-04-2018 08:31PM

Edward M wrote: »

Animals frequently reject their offspring and even kill them after birth, being a bit of an would farmer I know that to be true even of farmed animals, but it does happen.

i take your point but it is rather different to be fair. it's a natural occurrence. for humans however it's not a natural occurrence and if human beings did that they would be charged.

eviltwin · 15-04-2018 08:32PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

but anyway, back to the discussion on mens rights or have we concluded they have none?

Over someone else's bodily autonomy no. None of us have that right.

end of the road · 15-04-2018 08:34PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Over someone else's bodily autonomy no. None of us have that right.

and in ireland that includes the unborn.

eviltwin · 15-04-2018 08:39PM

end of the road wrote: »

and in ireland that includes the unborn.

Discussion of the rights and wrongs of abortion is moot. Abortion happens regardless. The issue here is if a man should be able to prevent a woman from having an abortion. No one has the right to force another person to do anything like this against their will. It's unfortunate that leaves men helpless but there is no equality in reproduction.

Eric Cartman · 15-04-2018 08:44PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Discussion of the rights and wrongs of abortion is moot. Abortion happens regardless. The issue here is if a man should be able to prevent a woman from having an abortion. No one has the right to force another person to do anything like this against their will. It's unfortunate that leaves men helpless but there is no equality in reproduction.

or force a woman to have an abortion, it could go either way.

I think that a man really has no rights to tell a woman to/ to not abort, but if the repeal amendment goes through, there should definitely be a change to allow fathers to completely remove themselves from any responsibility or duty to a child pre-birth should they decide that they don't want to be a parent.

Just as a man cannot and should not force a woman to have / to not have an abortion, a woman should not be able to force a man to raise a child he does not want.

gctest50 · 15-04-2018 08:54PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

.........

No other species aborts their own children. ....

Whales, caribou, lab mice, horses, gelada monkeys ?

Bruce effect ?

80% of pregnant geladas in the wild will terminate their pregnancies shortly after the dominant male is killed off and a new one takes up residence

.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-04-2018 08:56PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

but anyway, back to the discussion on mens rights or have we concluded they have none?

What right could a man have? The right to veto an abortion? That’s not how bodily autonomy works in any other walk of life.

We wouldn’t force a parent to donate a kidney or even a pint of blood to save the life of their child. The fact is everyone has the right to bodily autonomy and that goes for pregnancy too.

Men have every right to take part in the referendum and vote on the constitution but I can’t see how anyone except the pregnant person could have an official say on an abortion.

Should their mother also get a say? Or the other siblings? Or just the father? You would need to make a fairly novel case for anyone having a veto on someone else’s bodily autonomy. Do you have an argument that makes that case?

Martina1991 · 15-04-2018 09:23PM

kanadams123 wrote:

Birth and pregnancy is apart of the nature of life! Whether the baby is wanted or not and even if contraceptive methods were not successful, having a child is a part of the natural cycle of the human race and the unborn should always have the right to life.

Whether it's wanted or not. Jesus Christ.

Even if the mother will die?
Even if the child will be still born or severely disabled?
Even if the mother is a child herself?
Even if she was raped or abused?
Even if she can't physically, mentally or financially provide for the child?

Birth at all costs should be the anti choice slogan.

kumate_champ07 · 15-04-2018 10:06PM

Edward M wrote: »

Animals frequently reject their offspring and even kill them after birth, being a bit of an would farmer I know that to be true even of farmed animals, but it does happen.

I know that

Polar bears are eating their young at the moment due to starvation

Male bears kill baby bears so that they can mate with the mother, they are trying to get rid of genetic competition from other males

usually the runt of the litter is ignored by the mother, survival of the fittest.

end of the road · 15-04-2018 10:07PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

Even if the mother will die?
Even if the child will be still born or severely disabled?
Even if the mother is a child herself?

no, those would be exceptional cases for the most part and abortion must be provided.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Even if she was raped or abused?

this would also be an exceptional case, all though it's one i myself struggle to make a decisian on.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Even if she can't physically, mentally or financially provide for the child?

yes . there are other options in that situation such as adoption, the rules of which should be changed to make it more viable for couples to adopt irish children.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Birth at all costs should be the anti choice slogan.

there is no anti-choice though. their is anti-abortion or anti-abortion on demand or just simply, pro-life.

kumate_champ07 · 15-04-2018 10:10PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Many many animals practice infanticide for many reasons. Maybe do a simple google search before you say something so clearly wrong?

maybe read properly before you assume you understand someone elses point of view. abortion is when the offspring is still living inside the mother.

if we agree that some animals murder their children in the wild, does that mean its ok to do?

they also rape each other.

kumate_champ07 · 15-04-2018 10:17PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What right could a man have? The right to veto an abortion? That’s not how bodily autonomy works in any other walk of life.

how does it work? Can I pick psilocybin mushroom that grow naturally in Irish soil and injest them?

Can I make my own MDMA at home for my own personal therapeutic use?

Can I walk outside unclothed in my natural human form?

what right has anyone have to tell me what I can do with my own body?

Martina1991 · 15-04-2018 10:27PM

end of the road wrote:

no, those would be exceptional cases for the most part and abortion must be provided.

But abortion is not provided. Because of the 8th.

end of the road wrote:

this would also be an exceptional case, all though it's one i myself struggle to make a decisian on.

I don't care what your conscience struggles with. I care about the women's lives ruined by the 8th.

end of the road wrote:

yes . there are other options in that situation such as adoption, the rules of which should be changed to make it more viable for couples to adopt irish children.

Stop spouting adoption as an easy answer. Why should anyone be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy against her will only to hand it over to the state. That is barbaric.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-04-2018 10:52PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What right could a man have? The right to veto an abortion? That’s not how bodily autonomy works in any other walk of life.

how does it work? Can I pick psilocybin mushroom that grow naturally in Irish soil and injest them?

Can I make my own MDMA at home for my own personal therapeutic use?

Can I walk outside unclothed in my natural human form?

what right has anyone have to tell me what I can do with my own body?

Poor analogy.

You can’t do any of hose things. The analogy in this case would be that even if you could do those things, you couldn’t force or prevent someone else from doing them.

Eg you can choose to drink alcohol but you can’t force or prevent someone else from making that choice about whether or not they drink. Get it now?

Anyway, I asked if you have any kind of argument why anyone except the pregnant person should have decision making power on whether or not to have an abortion?

kumate_champ07 · 15-04-2018 10:53PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

But abortion is not provided. Because of the 8th.

doesnt it depend on the hospital? If the hospital is religiously affiliated they usually ignore the current legislation. why isnt the government cracking down on this?

end of the road · 15-04-2018 10:55PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

But abortion is not provided. Because of the 8th.

given the 2013 act hasn't been tested in the courts to my knowledge to say whether it could allow abortion in those circumstances, i can't simply take it as 100% that the 8th would prevent abortions in those circumstances.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Stop spouting adoption as an easy answer.

i never said it was an easy answer. i have absolutely no doubt that it takes massive strength to give a child up for adoption.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Why should anyone be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy against her will only to hand it over to the state. That is barbaric.

because the unborn has a right to live. just because it's biological mother doesn't want it does not mean it's life should be ended.

kumate_champ07 · 15-04-2018 10:55PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Poor analogy.

You can’t do any of hose things. The analogy in this case would be that even if you could do those things, you couldn’t force or prevent someone else from doing them.

Eg you can choose to drink alcohol but you can’t force or prevent someone else from making that choice about whether or not they drink. Get it now?

Anyway, I asked if you have any kind of argument why anyone except the pregnant person should have decision making power on whether or not to have an abortion?

I can go to other countries where those drugs are legal.
so why not make them legal here. it's my body

kumate_champ07 · 15-04-2018 10:58PM

I think alot of women see this whole situation as men telling them what to do, rather than other humans(including women) telling them they dont agree with abortion for non medical reasons

kumate_champ07 · 15-04-2018 11:13PM

FYI to anyone who wants to score points against me, I've had enough internet for today so wont be explaining my argument any further or replying for now

Triceratops Ballet · 15-04-2018 11:29PM

kumate_champ07 wrote:

I think alot of women see this whole situation as men telling them what to do, rather than other humans(including women) telling them they dont agree with abortion for non medical reasons

I would say a lot of people (there are men and women in favour of repeal) see this as other people (men and women) trying to ensure that everyone has to live according to their morals.

The thing about morals though is they are not fixed.

As for any gender based argument, it's just a fact that the 8th has more of a direct impact on the lives and health care of women. That doesn't mean men don't have the right to an opinion or vote on the issue.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-04-2018 11:36PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Poor analogy.

You can’t do any of hose things. The analogy in this case would be that even if you could do those things, you couldn’t force or prevent someone else from doing them.

Eg you can choose to drink alcohol but you can’t force or prevent someone else from making that choice about whether or not they drink. Get it now?

Anyway, I asked if you have any kind of argument why anyone except the pregnant person should have decision making power on whether or not to have an abortion?

I can go to other countries where those drugs are legal.
so why not make them legal here. it's my body

That’s grand but I’m those countries would you be able to force or prevent someone from choosing whether or not to use those drugs? Obviously you wouldn’t. That’s where bodily autonomy comes in.

So i asked you a couple of time if you have an argument that would give anyone except he pregnant person decision making power over whether or not to have an abortion?

So the question isn’t about whether you have a say over what you do with your body, the question is whether someone else should have a choice over what you do with your body (bodily autonomy).

Do you at least understand the question?

El_Duderino 09 · 15-04-2018 11:42PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I think alot of women see this whole situation as men telling them what to do, rather than other humans(including women) telling them they dont agree with abortion for non medical reasons

This thread is about whether or not a man should have the right to decide whether or not the woman has an abortion.

end of the road · 16-04-2018 12:37AM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I would say a lot of people (there are men and women in favour of repeal) see this as other people (men and women) trying to ensure that everyone has to live according to their morals.

that is what society and the law does though. do those people who have an issue with people trying to ensure that everyone has to live according to their morals have a problem with the law in general, given that having people live by a set of morals is what the law effectively does?

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

The thing about morals though is they are not fixed.

true, and sometimes that can be a problem while other times not.

_Dara_ · 16-04-2018 01:12AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

or force a woman to have an abortion, it could go either way.

I think that a man really has no rights to tell a woman to/ to not abort, but if the repeal amendment goes through, there should definitely be a change to allow fathers to completely remove themselves from any responsibility or duty to a child pre-birth should they decide that they don't want to be a parent.

Just as a man cannot and should not force a woman to have / to not have an abortion, a woman should not be able to force a man to raise a child he does not want.

We’re a long, long way from that. It won’t be happening any time soon. Ireland won’t be leading the world on the issue.

If it ever does happen, it should also come with a strict deadline so that a woman can have an abortion if she discovers that the man will not be contributing. No deciding in the eight month of pregnancy that being a father is not for him.

I really hope nobody votes no to repeal for the reason that men can’t opt out. The two issues are not going to be decided together. It’ll be a whole other campaign.

Triceratops Ballet · 16-04-2018 08:30AM

end of the road wrote:

that is what society and the law does though. do those people who have an issue with people trying to ensure that everyone has to live according to their morals have a problem with the law in general, given that having people live by a set of morals is what the law effectively does?

I imagine some do, and that's why they protest some laws. A significant number of people have a problem with the 8th amendment, the religious lobbying and scaremongering that got it put in the constitution in the first place and the impact it's had. It's not wrong to object to a law.

end of the road · 16-04-2018 11:43AM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I imagine some do, and that's why they protest some laws. A significant number of people have a problem with the 8th amendment, the religious lobbying and scaremongering that got it put in the constitution in the first place and the impact it's had. It's not wrong to object to a law.

it's not wrong to object to a law agree, but sometimes certain consiquences of that law being removed are problematic and cannot be allowed to happen. there was very little if any scare mongering involved in relation to implementing the 8th from what bits i have read on the subject of it's introduction. religion certainly had a part but after all the majority of people voted for it.

Triceratops Ballet · 16-04-2018 12:01PM

end of the road wrote:

it's not wrong to object to a law agree, but sometimes certain consiquences of that law being removed are problematic and cannot be allowed to happen.

In your opinion, but not in the opinion of many, that's all it is though, opinions it isn't a fact that its wrong, its all just opinions.

end of the road wrote:

there was very little if any scare mongering involved in relation to implementing the 8th from what bits i have read on the subject of it's introduction. religion certainly had a part but after all the majority of people voted for it.

You should read up on the implementation then there's a short video, which I think is interesting no matter what side you fall on.
Though some of the actions of the church are despicable, and it's frightening to think that their grip on the country was so strong even as recently as the 80's
https://youtu.be/B6yJH8obJsM

El_Duderino 09 · 16-04-2018 01:02PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

or force a woman to have an abortion, it could go either way.

I think that a man really has no rights to tell a woman to/ to not abort, but if the repeal amendment goes through, there should definitely be a change to allow fathers to completely remove themselves from any responsibility or duty to a child pre-birth should they decide that they don't want to be a parent.

Just as a man cannot and should not force a woman to have / to not have an abortion, a woman should not be able to force a man to raise a child he does not want.

I’m undecided on that point do I’m open to persuasion.

I think there would need to be very liberal abortion laws and freely available abortion to everyone. Then there would be a good case for the man being able to choose not to be an active father. That would leave the roman a choice about becoming a mother on her own or having an abortion.

They are separate issues though. It has taken decades to campaign for another abortion referendum so I would expect decades before any change in the case of and fatherly abdication.

If people want to campaign for a referendum on that topic, they should get active. There’s a long road ahead but it’s possible.

kumate_champ07 · 16-04-2018 04:24PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I would say a lot of people (there are men and women in favour of repeal) see this as other people (men and women) trying to ensure that everyone has to live according to their morals.

The thing about morals though is they are not fixed.

As for any gender based argument, it's just a fact that the 8th has more of a direct impact on the lives and health care of women. That doesn't mean men don't have the right to an opinion or vote on the issue.

civilized society and the natural kingdom are separated by the 'law',

the law is based on 'morals' - rules that were agreed upon so that we could decrease murder,stealing,and rape in our species, and try to live in harmony

if the law is changed and murder is allowed in certain circumstances well I guess I'll have to live with it

murder is already legal in wars ,capital punishment, and of course abortions in many countries.

SusieBlue · 16-04-2018 04:31PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

civilized society and the natural kingdom are separated by the 'law',

the law is based on 'morals' - rules that were agreed upon so that we could decrease murder,stealing,and rape in our species, and try to live in harmony

if the law is changed and murder is allowed in certain circumstances well I guess I'll have to live with it

murder is already legal in wars ,capital punishment, and of course abortions in many countries.

Its not murder. No matter how many times you try to insist, it simply isn't.

Men's rights on Abortion?

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