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Child Item

Men's rights on Abortion?

drunkmonkey

Do we get a look in anywhere or can a man/boyfriend/fiance/husband legally challenge a woman's decision to abort?

I've put in a poll to see what you think

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kumate_champ07

_Dara_ wrote: »

We’re a long, long way from that. It won’t be happening any time soon. Ireland won’t be leading the world on the issue.

If it ever does happen, it should also come with a strict deadline so that a woman can have an abortion if she discovers that the man will not be contributing. No deciding in the eight month of pregnancy that being a father is not for him.

I really hope nobody votes no to repeal for the reason that men can’t opt out. The two issues are not going to be decided together. It’ll be a whole other campaign.

will it get the same kind of support from liberals as Repeal?
or will that situation remain the same because men are 'privileged' and should be happy with what they have

kumate_champ07

SusieBlue wrote: »

Its not murder. No matter how many times you try to insist, it simply isn't.

what isnt murder?

cnocbui

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

what isnt murder?

Trolling, apparently.

SusieBlue

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

what isnt murder?

Abortion isn't murder. Its what I presume you were talking about in the bolded part below, please clarify if not.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

if the law is changed and murder is allowed in certain circumstances well I guess I'll have to live with it

murder is already legal in wars ,capital punishment, and of course abortions in many countries.

kumate_champ07

abortion in Ireland is considered murder at the moment(when its not to save the mothers life)

its an unlawful killing, that is the definition

people want to change the law so that the killing is lawful.

kumate_champ07

cnocbui wrote: »

Trolling, apparently.

who is? you think I'm trolling?

El_Duderino 09

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

will it get the same kind of support from liberals as Repeal?
or will that situation remain the same because men are 'privileged' and should be happy with what they have

What percentage of the country are 'liberals'?
Repeal has taken decades to get to about 50/50 support. So I think the job would be to make the case to the whole country. If you just want to focus on liberals you'll be neglecting the rest of the citizens.

Likewise gays had to fight against the mainstream for decades to have their rights recognised. Don't expect other people to do the hard work for you. If you want to cause change, get out and start campaigning.

Assuming that it's futile because liberals won't support you is lazy and simply doesn't cut it. If you care about the issue as much as you talk about it, get out and start turning the tide like the repeal movement and the gays did.

SusieBlue

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

abortion in Ireland is considered murder at the moment(when its not to save the mothers life)

its an unlawful killing, that is the definition

people want to change the law so that the killing is lawful.

No it isn't. If it was considered murder, we wouldn't have written it into our constitution to permit women to travel for abortions.
That isn't just allowing it, or sweeping it under the carpet, we actually wrote it into our constitution that this is allowed.

Surely if it were considered murder, we'd be prosecuting these women to the highest point of the law, for the crime of going abroad to cruelly execute an innocent child? Surely nothing would be too much trouble to prevent these callous murders from happening?
Oh wait. We don't.

Because aborting Irish children is absolutely fine, according to the Pro Lifers, so long as it doesn't happen in Ireland.
Which is the biggest load of hypocritical NIMBYism whataboutery ever.

Triceratops Ballet

kumate_champ07 wrote:

civilized society and the natural kingdom are separated by the 'law',

kumate_champ07 wrote:

the law is based on 'morals' - rules that were agreed upon so that we could decrease murder,stealing,and rape in our species, and try to live in harmony

kumate_champ07 wrote:

if the law is changed and murder is allowed in certain circumstances well I guess I'll have to live with it

kumate_champ07 wrote:

murder is already legal in wars ,capital punishment, and of course abortions in many countries.

We're not voting on murder though are we?
We're not even voting on abortion, we're voting on the 8th amendment.

Triceratops Ballet

kumate_champ07 wrote:

abortion in Ireland is considered murder at the moment(when its not to save the mothers life)

Do we prosecute those who procure abortions as murderers?
Murder has a specific definition abortion and murder are not the same thing

cnocbui

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

abortion in Ireland is considered murder at the moment(when its not to save the mothers life)

its an unlawful killing, that is the definition

people want to change the law so that the killing is lawful.

People want to change the law so this country joins the rest of the OECD countries that allow abortions and recognise the intrinsic human rights of women.

Only women should have a say in whether they do or don't continue with a pregnancy. Men can also have a say if they find themselves pregnant, before anyone accuses me of insensitivity or bias.

SusieBlue

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

We're not voting on murder though are we?
We're not even voting on abortion, we're voting on the 8th amendment.

Exactly. I don't believe a pre 12 week old fetus is of equal worth to me, unless I decide it to be so.
In other words, if there are risks to my health, wellbeing, or life, and I am happy to continue with a pregnancy, that is on me.
However I should be allowed to avoid those risks if I want to.
At the moment I have no choice. The choice is made for me by the constitution.

As a living, breathing woman my rights, wants, and needs, as well as those of any existing children I have, should be prioritised over that of a potential person. Unless I decide otherwise.
Its no one else's decision but mine to make.

Strangers on the internet know nothing of my life, my past, my health, my circumstances. Which is why its very hard for me to stomach that they would try to force me, or any woman, into a pregnancy she didn't want.
Taking away choices from living people is absolutely not in the best interests of anyone.

eviltwin

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

abortion in Ireland is considered murder at the moment(when its not to save the mothers life)

its an unlawful killing, that is the definition

people want to change the law so that the killing is lawful.

No it's not. It's not legal but it's a completely separate crime to murder in every way. There doesn't seem to be any public interest in jailing all these so called murderers which is telling enough in itself.

cnocbui

SusieBlue wrote: »

No it isn't. If it was considered murder, we wouldn't have written it into our constitution to permit women to travel for abortions.
That isn't just allowing it, or sweeping it under the carpet, we actually wrote it into our constitution that this is allowed.

Surely if it were considered murder, we'd be prosecuting these women to the highest point of the law, for the crime of going abroad to cruelly execute an innocent child? Surely nothing would be too much trouble to prevent these callous murders from happening?
Oh wait. We don't.

Because aborting Irish children is absolutely fine, according to the Pro Lifers, so long as it doesn't happen in Ireland.
Which is the biggest load of hypocritical NIMBYism whataboutery ever.

I really admire your position but it might be a lost cause. Ultimately, if the 8th isn't repealed, women should just emigrate to a civilised country and leave the Irish men to the abortion free society they want.

kumate_champ07

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

We're not voting on murder though are we?
We're not even voting on abortion, we're voting on the 8th amendment.

we're voting on something that was put in place and ignored. it would be better to stop ignoring whats there in the first place. The government should engage with the religious institutions that have been obstructing current legislation

its legal for abortion in Ireland at the moment when it saves a mothers life

kumate_champ07

eviltwin wrote: »

No it's not. It's not legal but it's a completely separate crime to murder in every way. There doesn't seem to be any public interest in jailing all these so called murderers which is telling enough in itself.

the definition of murder is 'an unlawful killing'

you can pretend to yourself that its not murder if that makes you feel better, but it doesnt change anything. the fact that it happens alot also doesnt change anything, or that there isnt enough enough prison space,police time & court time to pursue every case

perhaps its just an acceptable type of murder. and one day it will be made legal in Ireland.

eviltwin

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

the definition of murder is 'an unlawful killing'

you can pretend to yourself that its not murder if that makes you feel better, but it doesnt change anything. the fact that it happens alot also doesnt change anything, or that there isnt enough enough prison space,police time & court time to pursue every case

perhaps its just an acceptable type of murder. and one day it will be made legal in Ireland.

You might consider it murder but the law does not agree and most people don't agree. Otherwise we'd have people looking for those who have abortions to be jailed and I don't see anyone calling for that do you? Even women who break the law by having abortions here aren't being prosecuted despite the potential 14 yrs sentence. So what does that say? As someone who is open about having an abortion I've never had anyone close to me judge me over it, I can't imagine a similar reaction if I stabbed a person.

kumate_champ07

eviltwin wrote: »

You might consider it murder but the law does not agree and most people don't agree. Otherwise we'd have people looking for those who have abortions to be jailed and I don't see anyone calling for that do you? Even women who break the law by having abortions here aren't being prosecuted despite the potential 14 yrs sentence. So what does that say? As someone who is open about having an abortion I've never had anyone close to me judge me over it, I can't imagine a similar reaction if I stabbed a person.

it says you didnt read everything I wrote

Triceratops Ballet

kumate_champ07 wrote:

we're voting on something that was put in place and ignored. it would be better to stop ignoring whats there in the first place. The government should engage with the religious institutions that have been obstructing current legislation

How is it being ignored?
Also why should the government be engaging with religious institutions, they have no powers to block anything, neither should they but that's another conversation

eviltwin

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

it says you didnt read everything I wrote

It's says your logic is bs. There is no public or state appetite to prosecute women because most people don't see it as that big a deal.

kumate_champ07

eviltwin wrote: »

It's says your logic is bs. There is no public or state appetite to prosecute women because most people don't see it as that big a deal.

you might not agree with my logic, but I seem to be one of the few using logic

a lot of people dont see that type of murder as a big deal

eviltwin

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

you might not agree with my logic, but I seem to be one of the few using logic

a lot of people dont see that type of murder as a big deal

What logic? You said women aren't prosecuted because of lack of resources. How do you know that's the reason? Wouldn't you think there would be the resources to charge even a few?

If I went to my local garda station to 'confess' I'd be laughed out of it.

kumate_champ07

eviltwin wrote: »

What logic? You said women aren't prosecuted because of lack of resources. How do you know that's the reason?Wouldn't you think there would be the resources to charge even a few?

If I went to my local garda station to 'confess' I'd be laughed out of it.