Edward M wrote: » Animals frequently reject their offspring and even kill them after birth, being a bit of an would farmer I know that to be true even of farmed animals, but it does happen.
kumate_champ07 wrote: » but anyway, back to the discussion on mens rights or have we concluded they have none?
eviltwin wrote: » Over someone else's bodily autonomy no. None of us have that right.
end of the road wrote: » and in ireland that includes the unborn.
eviltwin wrote: » Discussion of the rights and wrongs of abortion is moot. Abortion happens regardless. The issue here is if a man should be able to prevent a woman from having an abortion. No one has the right to force another person to do anything like this against their will. It's unfortunate that leaves men helpless but there is no equality in reproduction.
kumate_champ07 wrote: » ......... No other species aborts their own children. ....
kanadams123 wrote: Birth and pregnancy is apart of the nature of life! Whether the baby is wanted or not and even if contraceptive methods were not successful, having a child is a part of the natural cycle of the human race and the unborn should always have the right to life.
Martina1991 wrote: » Even if the mother will die? Even if the child will be still born or severely disabled? Even if the mother is a child herself?
Martina1991 wrote: » Even if she was raped or abused?
Martina1991 wrote: » Even if she can't physically, mentally or financially provide for the child?
Martina1991 wrote: » Birth at all costs should be the anti choice slogan.
Mark Hamill wrote: » Many many animals practice infanticide for many reasons. Maybe do a simple google search before you say something so clearly wrong?
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » What right could a man have? The right to veto an abortion? That’s not how bodily autonomy works in any other walk of life.
end of the road wrote: no, those would be exceptional cases for the most part and abortion must be provided.
end of the road wrote: this would also be an exceptional case, all though it's one i myself struggle to make a decisian on.
end of the road wrote: yes . there are other options in that situation such as adoption, the rules of which should be changed to make it more viable for couples to adopt irish children.
kumate_champ07 wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » What right could a man have? The right to veto an abortion? That’s not how bodily autonomy works in any other walk of life. how does it work? Can I pick psilocybin mushroom that grow naturally in Irish soil and injest them? Can I make my own MDMA at home for my own personal therapeutic use? Can I walk outside unclothed in my natural human form? what right has anyone have to tell me what I can do with my own body?
Martina1991 wrote: » But abortion is not provided. Because of the 8th.
Martina1991 wrote: » Stop spouting adoption as an easy answer.
Martina1991 wrote: » Why should anyone be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy against her will only to hand it over to the state. That is barbaric.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Poor analogy. You can’t do any of hose things. The analogy in this case would be that even if you could do those things, you couldn’t force or prevent someone else from doing them. Eg you can choose to drink alcohol but you can’t force or prevent someone else from making that choice about whether or not they drink. Get it now? Anyway, I asked if you have any kind of argument why anyone except the pregnant person should have decision making power on whether or not to have an abortion?
kumate_champ07 wrote: I think alot of women see this whole situation as men telling them what to do, rather than other humans(including women) telling them they dont agree with abortion for non medical reasons
kumate_champ07 wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Poor analogy. You can’t do any of hose things. The analogy in this case would be that even if you could do those things, you couldn’t force or prevent someone else from doing them. Eg you can choose to drink alcohol but you can’t force or prevent someone else from making that choice about whether or not they drink. Get it now? Anyway, I asked if you have any kind of argument why anyone except the pregnant person should have decision making power on whether or not to have an abortion? I can go to other countries where those drugs are legal. so why not make them legal here. it's my body
kumate_champ07 wrote: » I think alot of women see this whole situation as men telling them what to do, rather than other humans(including women) telling them they dont agree with abortion for non medical reasons
Triceratops Ballet wrote: » I would say a lot of people (there are men and women in favour of repeal) see this as other people (men and women) trying to ensure that everyone has to live according to their morals.
Triceratops Ballet wrote: » The thing about morals though is they are not fixed.
Eric Cartman wrote: » or force a woman to have an abortion, it could go either way. I think that a man really has no rights to tell a woman to/ to not abort, but if the repeal amendment goes through, there should definitely be a change to allow fathers to completely remove themselves from any responsibility or duty to a child pre-birth should they decide that they don't want to be a parent. Just as a man cannot and should not force a woman to have / to not have an abortion, a woman should not be able to force a man to raise a child he does not want.
end of the road wrote: that is what society and the law does though. do those people who have an issue with people trying to ensure that everyone has to live according to their morals have a problem with the law in general, given that having people live by a set of morals is what the law effectively does?
Triceratops Ballet wrote: » I imagine some do, and that's why they protest some laws. A significant number of people have a problem with the 8th amendment, the religious lobbying and scaremongering that got it put in the constitution in the first place and the impact it's had. It's not wrong to object to a law.
end of the road wrote: it's not wrong to object to a law agree, but sometimes certain consiquences of that law being removed are problematic and cannot be allowed to happen.
end of the road wrote: there was very little if any scare mongering involved in relation to implementing the 8th from what bits i have read on the subject of it's introduction. religion certainly had a part but after all the majority of people voted for it.
Triceratops Ballet wrote: » I would say a lot of people (there are men and women in favour of repeal) see this as other people (men and women) trying to ensure that everyone has to live according to their morals. The thing about morals though is they are not fixed. As for any gender based argument, it's just a fact that the 8th has more of a direct impact on the lives and health care of women. That doesn't mean men don't have the right to an opinion or vote on the issue.
kumate_champ07 wrote: » civilized society and the natural kingdom are separated by the 'law', the law is based on 'morals' - rules that were agreed upon so that we could decrease murder,stealing,and rape in our species, and try to live in harmony if the law is changed and murder is allowed in certain circumstances well I guess I'll have to live with it murder is already legal in wars ,capital punishment, and of course abortions in many countries.
