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Belfast rape trial discussion thread II
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Appledreams15 wrote: »I am not happy that Stuart and Paddy were sacked because I am vindictive, would like to see them suffer, or have any anger at them personally.
However, I am delighted because Ireland is beginning to take sexual assault more seriously.
We could not go on the way we were. I think if men knew the true scale of rapes in Ireland, they would be very ashamed to see that it was allowed to happen for such a long time, and procedures: court, support, education were not funded or paid any attention to.
This case has helped to highlight what needs to change
Seems to me that you are vindictive. Being part of the mob forcing innocent men out of the careers because they are men is sexist, vindictive and deplorable.
The only thing being taken seriously is money. That’s the only reason the IRFU appeased the mob.
I agree that we can't go on the way are. There needs to be actual evidence before someone is arrested and taken to court on a rape allegation. The current system where a woman cries rape and the man is treated like a rapist from the start needs to stop.
Would your employer be happy with you if your man hating messages were made available?facehugger99 wrote: »Paddy will need to hope rumours of a contract with Clermont are true - apparently he spent over 500k on his expensive legal team to get off the charges.
Given he hasn't played for 2 years it will be interesting to see how much he can command - certainly less than his previous contract.
It will also be interesting to see whether he can ever get back to the level where he was before his disgraceful behaviour. The out-half position is as much mental as physical and he may not be ever able to shake off the shame that will follow him around for the rest of his career - they'll certainly be plenty of sledging openings for rival fans and players to draw on. Does he have the mental strength to stand up to it? Time will tell - but I doubt it. Might have been better to cut his losses and try a new career path.
I read that the fees were just over 100k. Still a staggering figure, but far shirt of half a million.
It really is disturbing to see you take satisfaction from someone elses troubles. Keep throwing those stones.AudreyHepburn wrote: »Except there wasn’t any sexual assault or rape here.
And I have to be honest here Apple - your posts are very demeaning toward men. I’m guessing that somewhere along the line someone hurt you and I’m sorry it happened but you’re letting it color your view of men as a whole and that’s really unfair.
She mentioned earlier that she was raped. Could be true, or could be BS. She has shown clearly that she is completely and illogically biased in favour of women.Yes but they weren't let go for rape, it was their what's app messages. So tell me is that a message we should give to young girls. You are there to provide two holes, don't worry about your own enjoyment.
2 holes? Still a virgin? Bless.What qualifies me to give that woman any advice. If she asked I would tell her to be careful use good judgement, but the vast majority of young men are not dangerous.
If she finds herself in an abusive relationship where a lot of rapes occur then seek help to get out as quickly as possible.
This woman is young so when she gets over this I hope she has good nights out in the future and meets nice fellas that dont seem.to have a obsession with spit roasting.
That would be my advice
I would hope that all men stay well clear of this woman. God forbid she gets upset and they find themselves up for rape charges.Silentcorner wrote: »Bu bu bu but it is...why did Stuart Olding get his solicitor to read out a handwritten note prepared by him, apologising for his role in an unsavoury incident. Do you think he was lying?
Just because you don't think it is an answer, doesn't mean you are right.
He knew there was an angry mob. He gave them half a pound of flesh to keep them off his back.I’m pretty sure George Hook tried to make reference to something like this behaviour on the airwaves and the rest is history ............. or am I wrong?! George Hook was not talking about this case at the time either
The GH debacle was a disgrace. He was accused of victim blaming where he only wanted to spark a debate and question responsibility. People accused him of saying things which were simply not said and they also latched onto his apology. Any sane person knows his apology was an effort to keep his position, but of course it wasn’t enough for the mob.0 -
Other than the solicitors, would it be fair to say that the big winner from the last couple of weeks is young Joey Carbery?
Great chance to become the long term successor to Sexton at out-half.
Delighted for him, seems like a nice chap.0 -
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facehugger99 wrote: »Other than the solicitors, would it be fair to say that the big winner from the last couple of weeks is young Joey Carbery?
Great chance to become the long term successor to Sexton at out-half.
Delighted for him, seems like a nice chap.
Hopefully he is because God forbid he makes a mistake and you'll be down on him like a ton of bricks.0 -
You seem to be taking almost perverse amount of delight from the latest events.facehugger99 wrote: »Other than the solicitors, would it be fair to say that the big winner from the last couple of weeks is young Joey Carbery?
Great chance to become the long term successor to Sexton at out-half.
Delighted for him, seems like a nice chap.0 -
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Context nature of private messages is well accepted, it is not a difficult concept.
Then you agree with me that using sexist or objectifying language in private does not automatically make one sexist or a sexual deviant. You agree then with the point I have been making from the start.The court case found the men innocent of the very specific charges against, it made no ruling at all on apart from that.
I am not sure what your point is here.The men's own apology to their credit acknowledged their wrongdoing.
You would be extremely naive to assume that these apologies were not a simple gesture to appease public outcry. In any case, they acknowledged 'wrongdoing' in a moral sense, not legal. The acknowledgement that they acted like total sh*tebags is not an admission of having done something worthy of losing their job over.We all have complex personalities, but how we behave both in public and private are indicators of that personality.
But not definitive. Do you accept that? If so -- then again you have agreed with me.On a separate note please understand the importance of brevity
This is eye-rolling stuff. You are under no obligation to read my posts or respond to them. 'The importance of brevity' seems a slightly arbitrary concept -- I wasn't aware that issues such as the limits around freedom of speech and freedom of expression were issues where brevity was important. I could just as easily argue that people need be less brief on this and express their views a little deeper and maybe we might all learn something -- myself included.
I shall leave it to the moderators to let me know if a few paragraphs is simply too much for the brain to process . . .0 -
Seems to me that you are vindictive. Being part of the mob forcing innocent men out of the careers because they are men is sexist, vindictive and deplorable.
The only thing being taken seriously is money. That’s the only reason the IRFU appeased the mob.
I agree that we can't go on the way are. There needs to be actual evidence before someone is arrested and taken to court on a rape allegation. The current system where a woman cries rape and the man is treated like a rapist from the start needs to stop.
Would your employer be happy with you if your man hating messages were made available?
I read that the fees were just over 100k. Still a staggering figure, but far shirt of half a million.
It really is disturbing to see you take satisfaction from someone elses troubles. Keep throwing those stones.
She mentioned earlier that she was raped. Could be true, or could be BS. She has shown clearly that she is completely and illogically biased in favour of women.
2 holes? Still a virgin? Bless.
I would hope that all men stay well clear of this woman. God forbid she gets upset and they find themselves up for rape charges.
He knew there was an angry mob. He gave them half a pound of flesh to keep them off his back.
The GH debacle was a disgrace. He was accused of victim blaming where he only wanted to spark a debate and question responsibility. People accused him of saying things which were simply not said and they also latched onto his apology. Any sane person knows his apology was an effort to keep his position, but of course it wasn’t enough for the mob.
GH should never have been let go like that & I stuck up for him every time in this particular instance - PC gone completely out of friggin control0 -
Well this is a genuine question for you. At what stage is it safe or appropriate for a woman to go to a man room. ( just keeping it heterosexual for convenience)
I'm not trying to be awkward. Genuine question.
Well good question. It’s certainly not safe or appropriate for her to go to the room of a man who is too drunk to consent and begin sexual activity with him
Because that would of course be sexual assault on her part
Right?0 -
Falsely accused men don’t want sympathy. They want justice. When it is proven that someone has made a false accusation, they should get thrown into prison the same way convicted rapists are thrown into prison. Both are scum.
There is conflicting research everywhere, but lets take thise figures for now and round them off. For every 10 alleged rapes, 1 of them will be proven to be false. That’s a lot of false allegations. There aren’t many jail cells with false accusers in them, are there? Usually nothing happens even when it is proven that the accuser is lying, or blatantly admits it.
Yes, that’s correct. My mistake.
Not Guilty. What were the messages Paddy Jackson sent? Can you quote them and then honestly say he deserved to be sacked for the single message he sent?
Some wouldn’t be happy until these lads were hanging from a rope. Anonymous bullies is all most of them are.
And now you are believing what Paddy Jackson says? Well, that’s certainly a change. Believe him when it suits you eh?
see link below
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ashamed-paddy-jackson-apologises-for-degrading-messages-1.34528430 -
Nah mob rule has probably ended his international career. Any idea the reasons why Murphy and Easterby could and did play for Ireland though? I dont think its a recent ruling as Neil Best stopped playing internationally when he left Ulster for England so genuinely curious.
Nah, Jackson did a good job of ending his own career.
I genuinely don't know what the story with Murphy was though. Leo Cullen wasn't picked (or at least he wasn't often picked) when he played with Leicester. It was only when he returned to Leinster that he was selected in Ireland squads more regularly.
I remember reading somewhere that Murphy felt he would have won more caps if he was in Ireland, mind.0 -
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Silentcorner wrote: »Jesus Christ...
Maybe Rory should have tried to explain that to her in the cab ride home!!!
Jesus christ is right!
Is the concept of a girl targetting a high profile rugby player for sex so alien?
Conor and Simon's friend boasted about it0 -
Was there a point you were making?0 -
Roger Hassenforder wrote: »Silentcorner wrote: »Jesus Christ...
Maybe Rory should have tried to explain that to her in the cab ride home!!!
Jesus christ is right!
Is the concept of a girl targetting a high profile rugby player for sex so alien?
Conor and Simon's friend boasted about it
Paddy and Stuart's didn't.0 -
Roger Hassenforder wrote: »Jesus christ is right!
Is the concept of a girl targetting a high profile rugby player for sex so alien?
Conor and Simon's friend boasted about it
Did this young lady boast about it? Please post a link because it is the first I've heard of it.
It's hard to tell with this one, she was sobbing so much she was barely able to tell the cab driver her address....
Have you absolutely no empathy for a young woman who arrived home from a night out, sobbing to the point where she could barely talk?0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote: »The man did absolutely nothing wrong.
Is must be concerning for women when they read statements like the above.
Paddy has more understanding of his failings than some of his supporters on here.0 -
Silentcorner wrote: »Did this young lady boast about it? Please post a link because it is the first I've heard of it.
It's hard to tell with this one, she was sobbing so much she was barely able to tell the cab driver her address....
Have you absolutely no empathy for a young woman who arrived home from a night out, sobbing to the point where she could barely talk?
Theres several issues here youre conflating into one.
(Have i empathy for someone raped? Of course.
Have i empathy for a girl in tears? Yes.
Does a girl in tears mean she was raped?Paddy and Stuart's didn't.
Do girls target high profile sports stars for sex or not?0 -
Did you notice how you used the used expression 'cheaply' like they are selling sex?Roger Hassenforder wrote: »I
If nothing else maybe girls will stop throwing themselves at these guys and devaluing their productso cheaply.0 -
If I have learned one thing from this whole debacle it’s that far from being an enlightened and forward thinking country when it comes to sexual matters we still seem to be trapped in a 19th century mindset where sex is something a man does to a woman rather than it being a consensual act between two people.
As a woman this really bothers me - on the one hand my fellow women go on about wanting equality and being seen as strong and liberated and independent yet on the other hand they can’t revert to the victim mentality quick enough when it comes to their interactions with men
I think it’s time we start acting like the grown women we are and take responsibility for ourselves and our choices. That’s what a truly strong woman does. She doesn’t revert to man hating and acting like a victim to get her way.0 -
facehugger99 wrote: »Other than the solicitors, would it be fair to say that the big winner from the last couple of weeks is young Joey Carbery?
Great chance to become the long term successor to Sexton at out-half.
Delighted for him, seems like a nice chap.
Have you checked his whatsapp history first? Seems only fair if you are going to be choosing who to be 'delighted' for.0 -
Roger Hassenforder wrote: »Theres several issues here youre conflating into one.
(Have i empathy for someone raped? Of course.
Have i empathy for a girl in tears? Yes.
Does a girl in tears mean she was raped?
Do girls target high profile sports stars for sex or not?
But you were suggesting she got a great deal (getting two fine specimen as opposed to the boys having to share one)....how is that empathy? Did you ignore what state she arrived home in?
Does a girl in tears mean she was raped? I think it is fair to suggest she isn't feeling boastful.0 -
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Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
Some do, yes.
You said the girl involved with Murray and Zebo was boasting about it, which is completely irrelevant to what happened here, because the girl involved here was the complete opposite.
I think a lot of people here refuse to accept the possibility that she believes she was raped yet the lads believed it was consensual. It is absolutely possible that this is the case.
However, some people on either side just want to shout the other down, and give completely irrelevant comparisons.
This case is not a black and white one. Can you find two men guilty of rape when they believed it was consensual? In these circumstances, I don't think you can.
However, this 'false accusation' nonsense has to stop. You can't promote 'innocent until proven guilty' and then say that this girl falsely accused them of rape. Until this is proven, there's absolutely no evidence for it.
Even the defence thought the judge was so convinced by the complainants story that they accused her of being more sympathic to the complainant in her charge to the jury.
By all accounts, this woman was a very credible witness (so say most of the journos in the room). Otherwise, the defence wouldn't have tried to get the case thrown out so many times. They knew that this wasn't going to be an easy one to win. She's either telling the truth (or at least her perception of events) or she's a great actress.
Having said all that, Jackson's barrister sounds like a man very much worth the money. He crucified the prosecution evidence in his closing statement.
Do all of the above mean she was raped? Nah, but it shows that there is a wider conversation on consent that needs to be had. She could believe she was, but the lads would have been none the wiser.
It's such a sorry case for all involved, really.0 -
And yet in all your statements you said you would teach girls how not to regret sex. Not once you mentioned you would teach them that they should enjoy it.AudreyHepburn wrote: »If I have learned one thing from this whole debacle it’s that far from being an enlightened and forward thinking country when it comes to sexual matters we still seem to be trapped in a 19th century mindset where sex is something a man does to a woman rather than it being a consensual act between two people.
As a woman this really bothers me - on the one hand my fellow women go on about wanting equality and being seen as strong and liberated and independent yet on the other hand they can’t revert to the victim mentality quick enough when it comes to their interactions with men
I think it’s time we start acting like the grown women we are and take responsibility for ourselves and our choices. That’s what a truly strong woman does. She doesn’t revert to man hating and acting like a victim to get her way.
You preach a lot what a strong woman does, yet you don't understand that standing up for herself is not man hating, it's being strong.
It's also funny how it's all women's fault. Fairly despicable messages are just private conversations (it's good to know that, if I plan murder over what's app it's just private conversation) and nobody should be offended by that. And then it's the obligatory statement that only repressed people don't agree with you despite being pointed out on numerous occasions that consensual mutually enjoyable sex is not a problem.0 -
Some do, yes.
You said the girl involved with Murray and Zebo was boasting about it, which is completely irrelevant to what happened here, because the girl involved here was the complete opposite.
I think a lot of people here refuse to accept the possibility that she believes she was raped yet the lads believed it was consensual. It is absolutely possible that this is the case.
However, some people on either side just want to shout the other down, and give completely irrelevant comparisons.
This case is not a black and white one. Can you find two men guilty of rape when they believed it was consensual? In these circumstances, I don't think you can.
However, this 'false accusation' nonsense has to stop. You can't promote 'innocent until proven guilty' and then say that this girl falsely accused them of rape. Until this is proven, there's absolutely no evidence for it.
Even the defence thought the judge was so convinced by the complainants story that they accused her of being more sympathic to the complainant in her charge to the jury.
By all accounts, this woman was a very credible witness (so say most of the journos in the room). Otherwise, the defence wouldn't have tried to get the case thrown out so many times. They knew that this wasn't going to be an easy one to win. She's either telling the truth (or at least her perception of events) or she's a great actress.
Having said all that, Jackson's barrister sounds like a man very much worth the money. He crucified the prosecution evidence in his closing statement.
Do all of the above mean she was raped? Nah, but it shows that there is a wider conversation on consent that needs to be had. She could believe she was, but the lads would have been none the wiser.
It's such a sorry case for all involved, really.
And yet the jury decided inordinately quickly on many charges.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »And yet the jury decided inordinately quickly on many charges.
And prosecution decided the case is strong enough to bring it forward. An awful lot of people decide an awful lot of things and unless you know how and why they decided something your conclusions are pure speculation.0 -
What is the implication of thatFrancieBrady wrote: »Some do, yes.
You said the girl involved with Murray and Zebo was boasting about it, which is completely irrelevant to what happened here, because the girl involved here was the complete opposite.
I think a lot of people here refuse to accept the possibility that she believes she was raped yet the lads believed it was consensual. It is absolutely possible that this is the case.
However, some people on either side just want to shout the other down, and give completely irrelevant comparisons.
This case is not a black and white one. Can you find two men guilty of rape when they believed it was consensual? In these circumstances, I don't think you can.
However, this 'false accusation' nonsense has to stop. You can't promote 'innocent until proven guilty' and then say that this girl falsely accused them of rape. Until this is proven, there's absolutely no evidence for it.
Even the defence thought the judge was so convinced by the complainants story that they accused her of being more sympathic to the complainant in her charge to the jury.
By all accounts, this woman was a very credible witness (so say most of the journos in the room). Otherwise, the defence wouldn't have tried to get the case thrown out so many times. They knew that this wasn't going to be an easy one to win. She's either telling the truth (or at least her perception of events) or she's a great actress.
Having said all that, Jackson's barrister sounds like a man very much worth the money. He crucified the prosecution evidence in his closing statement.
Do all of the above mean she was raped? Nah, but it shows that there is a wider conversation on consent that needs to be had. She could believe she was, but the lads would have been none the wiser.
It's such a sorry case for all involved, really.
And yet the jury decided inordinately quickly on many charges.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »Some do, yes.
You said the girl involved with Murray and Zebo was boasting about it, which is completely irrelevant to what happened here, because the girl involved here was the complete opposite.
I think a lot of people here refuse to accept the possibility that she believes she was raped yet the lads believed it was consensual. It is absolutely possible that this is the case.
However, some people on either side just want to shout the other down, and give completely irrelevant comparisons.
This case is not a black and white one. Can you find two men guilty of rape when they believed it was consensual? In these circumstances, I don't think you can.
However, this 'false accusation' nonsense has to stop. You can't promote 'innocent until proven guilty' and then say that this girl falsely accused them of rape. Until this is proven, there's absolutely no evidence for it.
Even the defence thought the judge was so convinced by the complainants story that they accused her of being more sympathic to the complainant in her charge to the jury.
By all accounts, this woman was a very credible witness (so say most of the journos in the room). Otherwise, the defence wouldn't have tried to get the case thrown out so many times. They knew that this wasn't going to be an easy one to win. She's either telling the truth (or at least her perception of events) or she's a great actress.
Having said all that, Jackson's barrister sounds like a man very much worth the money. He crucified the prosecution evidence in his closing statement.
Do all of the above mean she was raped? Nah, but it shows that there is a wider conversation on consent that needs to be had. She could believe she was, but the lads would have been none the wiser.
It's such a sorry case for all involved, really.
And yet the jury decided inordinately quickly on many charges.
Francie, which part of the post have I said or even suggested it should have been otherwise?
Seriously, read it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what I've said in it. I haven't said the lads raped her, I haven't said they should have been found guilty. I've simply said that she felt she could have been and the lads were none the wiser.
I even said you can't convict based off all that.
Seriously, why do I have to explain myself every single time to you when you simply refuse to read what the post even says?0 -
And yet in all your statements you said you would teach girls how not to regret sex. Not once you mentioned you would teach them that they should enjoy it.
You preach a lot what a strong woman does, yet you don't understand that standing up for herself is not man hating, it's being strong.
It's also funny how it's all women's fault. Fairly despicable messages are just private conversations (it's good to know that, if I plan murder over what's app it's just private conversation) and nobody should be offended by that. And then it's the obligatory statement that only repressed people don't agree with you despite being pointed out on numerous occasions that consensual mutually enjoyable sex is not a problem.
Why do you persist in misinterpreting what I am saying?
I never said it was all women’s fault. I never said we can’t enjoy sex I never said that standing up for yourself is man hating.
I am simply making the point that as women our unwillingness to take personal responsibility for our choices when it comes to sexual matters is dangerous.
We simply can’t blame men for everything that goes wrong- if we truly are the strong modern women we claim to be then we should be able take responsibility for our own choices and accept the mistakes we make.0 -
AudreyHepburn wrote: »
We simply can’t blame men for everything that goes wrong- if we truly are the strong modern women we claim to be then we should be able take responsibility for our own choices and accept the mistakes we make.
Who is blaming men fot their mistakes? What mistakes are you referring to? Your post is very unclear.0 -
Nah, Jackson did a good job of ending his own career.
I genuinely don't know what the story with Murphy was though. Leo Cullen wasn't picked (or at least he wasn't often picked) when he played with Leicester. It was only when he returned to Leinster that he was selected in Ireland squads more regularly.
I remember reading somewhere that Murphy felt he would have won more caps if he was in Ireland, mind.
I'm not being smart here but there are people posting here about rugby matters who probably watch the 6N games and that's it.
Players like Olding and PJ won't be missed? They were average?
The reason why overseas players aren't picked is a decision made by the IRFU to keep their best players in ireland where they can manage their workload.
In the past very few players playing outside ireland got to play for the national team. Murphy, Bowe and Easterby were exceptions to this. EOS said before that if he had to pick between the player playing at home or the one abroad he neatly always gave the nod to the guy plying his trade here.
Not having a go at you Faugheen - just clearing up the above.0 -
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Silentcorner wrote: »Did this young lady boast about it? Please post a link because it is the first I've heard of it.
It's hard to tell with this one, she was sobbing so much she was barely able to tell the cab driver her address....
Have you absolutely no empathy for a young woman who arrived home from a night out, sobbing to the point where she could barely talk?
She could have been sobbing at the result of being humiliated or sore. Rough sex does not constitute rape. Sobbing does not constitute guilt on the mens part. So if you see a woman sobbing does it mean she has just been raped?
Did you read the part where she claimed to have looked at Paddy Jackson pleadingly in the eye while lying on her stomach? She must be a contortionist. And she returned to the house to collect her belongings a couple of minutes later in spite of her trauma?
I think the girl was humiliated but there is holes in her story and given the key witness Dara Florences testimony, it would be very very hard to prove that consent wasnt given here.
My honest belief is that was young and stupid she got herself into a situation where she wasnt mature enough to handle the outcome and thought to get revenge on the men in question. As a result, everyones a loser.
Dont get me wrong, the men in question dont come out of this smelling of roses in any way shape or form but they are not rapists0
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